The US has offered a very large deal that would effectively double the size of the RSAF and is believed to involve F-15S and F-16 Block 60. The stumbling block is apparently the ITAR and technology access issue. Any deal will also involve greater industrial offsets to Saudi - something that will take time to negotiate and agree. Unlike in the past, the Saudi Government is now keen to see such offsets - the latest General Dynamics Abrahms and BAE Typhoon deals being cases in point.
Arab Air Forces
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- #82
Th F-16 Block 60/62 deal got rejected in the early stages of the UAE contract didn't it? If the Saudis even buy 100 of those (and they were planing something like 150) they would be more than match to the Israel's 300 lower quality F-16's (not mention the chances of SA just joining an Arab coalition that would include the likes of Egypt and such). The Americans rejected because of these reasons and the Israel's armed forces are equipped to deal with a whole coalition of Arab states plus the addition of Iran and possibly Pakistan so an arms offer to Saudi must be matched with an even larger offer to the Israeli's which would cost the US HUGE amounts of money because they pay for any major US arms purchases made by the Israeli's. So why not just save money and not offer anything at all and keep the balance of power in the region the same? This I believe is the logic of the Americans.
Please provide a link to the offer if you can find it. Thanks.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?font_size=big&aid=1273
This article actually mentions F-16C/D but talk here is that it is Block 60. It also mentions Raptor - lets set the record straight on that one right now. The F-22 is a very long way away for Saudi - if ever. I think that can be put down to bad journalism!
As I have said before on another thread, F-16 would in my opinion be a doubtful choice for the RSAF. Current doctrine favours twin-engine jets, the last single engine fighter in RSAF service was the F-86 Sabre. However, I have little doubt that the F-35 will eventually be procurred by Saudi in time, so who knows.
Your right in underlining any Israeli fears about Block 60, but as we have seen with the UAE, the US will restrict what weapons it can carry. The UAE can not operate for example its Black Shaheen/Storm Shadows on their F-16s, the US refused to integrate them. I'm sure the same restrictions would apply to Riyadh and thus instantly degrades the capabilities of the aircraft. I'm also sure the usual basing restrictions would apply, but just speculating - isn't the F-15S already more capable than the F-16 Block 60? Surely they are what the IDF would counter the most as opposed to Block 60.
This article actually mentions F-16C/D but talk here is that it is Block 60. It also mentions Raptor - lets set the record straight on that one right now. The F-22 is a very long way away for Saudi - if ever. I think that can be put down to bad journalism!
As I have said before on another thread, F-16 would in my opinion be a doubtful choice for the RSAF. Current doctrine favours twin-engine jets, the last single engine fighter in RSAF service was the F-86 Sabre. However, I have little doubt that the F-35 will eventually be procurred by Saudi in time, so who knows.
Your right in underlining any Israeli fears about Block 60, but as we have seen with the UAE, the US will restrict what weapons it can carry. The UAE can not operate for example its Black Shaheen/Storm Shadows on their F-16s, the US refused to integrate them. I'm sure the same restrictions would apply to Riyadh and thus instantly degrades the capabilities of the aircraft. I'm also sure the usual basing restrictions would apply, but just speculating - isn't the F-15S already more capable than the F-16 Block 60? Surely they are what the IDF would counter the most as opposed to Block 60.
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- #84
Why is Jordan above the UAE-AF??? The UAE-AF might not be as good as the EAF or RSAF but they are pretty high up there and the gap between the UAE and the EAF and the RSAF is small. Plus didn't they just make a request for their pilots to have training in the US. If the deal is approved would the UAE be better than the EAF in terms of readiness.
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- #85
I doubt the Saudis will buy the F-35. Egypt and Jordan probably because of their relations with Israel. In "the F-22 export study" it said the Saudis are possible candidates for the F-22 along with Australia, Japan and Israel. It's a likely that 15 to 20 years from now the will be available for export to the nations mentioned above because America can only afforded 183 F-22's and Russia is planning more than 1000 PAK-FA's. I find it pretty likely that they will eventually be available for export even though some people disagree.
Maybe, as I said its a very long way off, certainly not before the IDF ever get it and even then, it will no doubt be a downgraded model.
F-35 is almost a certainty for the RSAF in my opinion, the lobbying from Lockheed and BAE will be immense for one. RSAF by 2020 will be looking at replacements for their Tornado and F-15C/D fleets. Typhoon should be able to cover these roles, Prince Sultan has alredy expressed his view that the eventual deal could be for as many 200. But I doubt RSAF will want to rely on just one platform and F-35 is probably the most realistic and capable option available.
In the meantime, I anticipate some news soon in regards a new advanced trainer to begin replacing the Hawk T.60s. T.120 series Hawk is probably a cert here as part of the Typhoon package. RSAF will also watch with interest the delivery of the PC-21 turboprop to the UAEAF, Riyadh's PC-9s are very heavily tasked. Finally, its almost certain now Saudi signed deals with Eurocopter and Airbus at last week's Paris Air Show, I believe this will involve over 150 helicopters (including Tiger) and at least 2 A330 MRTTs.
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- #87
Sure but the RSAF will look for more capable aircraft than the F-35 and Israel officially said it has intentions to buy 24 F-22's (I have no idea where they plan to get the money, USAID of course). The RSAF cannot and should not replace platform like the F-15 with the F-35, they are used for completely different roles. When I first heard of the Typhoon deal I thought it was a replacement for the F-15 but then I read that they were meant to replace the Tornado. Maybe they will buy the F-35 to use as an air-ground platform with the Eurofighter Typhoon as their new air superiority fighter. The ME air forces that in my eyes seem to be almost certainly headed for the F-35 are the RJAF, the EAF, the TuAF and the IAF and possibly the UAE-AF or any other heavy F-16 users. And possible candidates for the F-22 should be heavy F-15 users and with all the financial troubles the US should look to sell the F-22 to the RSAF and Japanese Air Force first (as they have the money to buy the largest amount) but should also give the IAF the small number of F-22's they asked for. We could possible have the same thing that happened with F-15 being in service with the RSAF and the IAF. The RSAF could possibly maintain 100 or so with IAF buying a smaller number.
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The first 24 Typhoons are to replace the Tornado ADV, i.e. the interceptors. Not sure about the rest, but the Tornado IDS (ground attack) are being modernised & having new weapons integrated, so they aren't going to be retired soon.
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- #89
Are the Saudis going to make a follow up deal with 72 Typhoons????
TSP, Tornado Sustainment Program will keep 11 Wings Tornado IDS operating till 2020. Storm Shadow, Brimstone and ASRAAM will come as part of the deal. More importantly, the vast majority of the refurb work will soon be handled in-Kingdom.
Prince Sultan has been quoted in the Arab News as stating there is a need for as many as 200 Typhoons. I will search for a link. In the meantime, some info in regards the Typhoon program from Saudi's leading english-newspaper.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=15§ion=0&article=89606&d=6&m=12&y=2006
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- #91
No wonder the Israelis want to buy F-22's, the Egyptians are slowly being replaced as the most powerful Arab army. But they are buying Tor M-1, Buk M-1 and MiG-29's from Russia and probably the F-35 sometime in the future but as far as being "the leader of the Arab world"
I think it's time for someone else to take the throne as the Egyptians don't do anything major with it.- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #94
But they do have western sourced displays, HMS and avionics right(I think from Thales)?
The Israeli sourced components are basically a result of American tech transfers with the biggest example being the Israeli targeting pod on the MKI. I think the only true innovation are in Israeli HMS's(and there are European equivalents) and short range missiles(also has European equivalents). F-16I is not an upgrade from a 52+ F-16 if anything it's a downgrade.
How do you figure that the F-16I is a downgrade from the block 52+ (putting the skill of those flying the planes aside)? Israel has put their own systems (which they feel are better suited to their needs--in many ways) in the F-16I which integrate with all their other weapon systems.
The targeting pod on the MK1 as well as the HMSs used, are not the exact same technology used on/in Israeli aircraft.
e.g. the JSF will not have the same "stealth" technology as the F-22.
Sansei442/100
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I agree with you totally.
If I was the IAF and my big bro (the US) had just decided to sell the fighter that made up most of my fleet to the Egyptians down the coast I'd be pretty pissed off-after all, the decadent pyramid builders are the only ones to have participated in all the wars Israel has been involved in up to 1973 and the only ones that have managed to catch the Israeli Armed Forces off guard during Yom Kippur in 1973. A natural response would be to customise and design my own superior equipment which the Egyptians don't have.
The F-16I in question has classifed Elta or IMI defense suites which are second to none and better than anything the Arabs have-even India decided to purchase Elta EW suites for their Su-30MKI given the large RCS which would be a liabilty in dogfights. The F-16I is customised for special strike and features AMRAAM capability as well as the Derby and Python 5 missile-currently the only missile to acheive a 90 degree offboresight capability-far better than the AIM-9X (in fact the USAF bought 20 Python 5) or any comparable EU short range AAM including IRIS-T and ASRAAM if you compare publicy available stats. Other goodies are classified but I can tell you that since the IAF depends on preemptive stirkes to offset Arab numbers they require only the best aircraft-and if the F-1652+ was really better than they would have bought 102 52+ instead of 102 F-16I.
In contrast, the Egyptian F-16 B40s only have Aim-9 and Aim-7 AAMs as their armarant.
If I was the IAF and my big bro (the US) had just decided to sell the fighter that made up most of my fleet to the Egyptians down the coast I'd be pretty pissed off-after all, the decadent pyramid builders are the only ones to have participated in all the wars Israel has been involved in up to 1973 and the only ones that have managed to catch the Israeli Armed Forces off guard during Yom Kippur in 1973. A natural response would be to customise and design my own superior equipment which the Egyptians don't have.
The F-16I in question has classifed Elta or IMI defense suites which are second to none and better than anything the Arabs have-even India decided to purchase Elta EW suites for their Su-30MKI given the large RCS which would be a liabilty in dogfights. The F-16I is customised for special strike and features AMRAAM capability as well as the Derby and Python 5 missile-currently the only missile to acheive a 90 degree offboresight capability-far better than the AIM-9X (in fact the USAF bought 20 Python 5) or any comparable EU short range AAM including IRIS-T and ASRAAM if you compare publicy available stats. Other goodies are classified but I can tell you that since the IAF depends on preemptive stirkes to offset Arab numbers they require only the best aircraft-and if the F-1652+ was really better than they would have bought 102 52+ instead of 102 F-16I.
In contrast, the Egyptian F-16 B40s only have Aim-9 and Aim-7 AAMs as their armarant.
Sansei442- who are you agreeing with?
-I don't know what they mean, but strange statements came out after Olmert met with Bush and the USAF held exercises with the IAF in the Negev about the US and Israel sharing any and all information on new technology, developments, equipment, purchases, sales, etc...
Something slightly similar (statement) has come out of Japan.
IMO, the US is moving Africom from Germany to probably Morocco (I posted a link a couple weeks ago). This doesn't hurt Europe (European opinion?), but provides the US with not only bases directly in Africa (next to oil), but is an added counterweight to Iran on the other side of the ME. Allows quicker strikes in Africa and strengthens Israel by our placement. Israel still acts as a forward base for us and permits us to enter Gaza/Lebanon/Syria... (out of those talks, I wouldn't be surprised to see, PERHAPS, Israel, Japan, and maybe Australia get permission to buy the F-22) except moving equipment around doesn't require the eye's of several other countries.:unknown
The US is definitely worried about the weapons we've sold Egypt, and the stability of the country--namely succession (also linked this a couple of weeks ago... i can look for it if people want).
-I doubt the F-35 will go to egypt. It would be a gift to Russia.No wonder the Israelis want to buy F-22's, the Egyptians are slowly being replaced as the most powerful Arab army. But they are buying Tor M-1, Buk M-1 and MiG-29's from Russia and probably the F-35 sometime in the future but as far as being "the leader of the Arab world"
-I don't know what they mean, but strange statements came out after Olmert met with Bush and the USAF held exercises with the IAF in the Negev about the US and Israel sharing any and all information on new technology, developments, equipment, purchases, sales, etc...
Something slightly similar (statement) has come out of Japan.
IMO, the US is moving Africom from Germany to probably Morocco (I posted a link a couple weeks ago). This doesn't hurt Europe (European opinion?), but provides the US with not only bases directly in Africa (next to oil), but is an added counterweight to Iran on the other side of the ME. Allows quicker strikes in Africa and strengthens Israel by our placement. Israel still acts as a forward base for us and permits us to enter Gaza/Lebanon/Syria... (out of those talks, I wouldn't be surprised to see, PERHAPS, Israel, Japan, and maybe Australia get permission to buy the F-22) except moving equipment around doesn't require the eye's of several other countries.:unknown
The US is definitely worried about the weapons we've sold Egypt, and the stability of the country--namely succession (also linked this a couple of weeks ago... i can look for it if people want).
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Sorry, I read page 4 before seeing your post here
The US is looking to offset production costs of the F-22 by doing a couple things: keep buying american (down-priced F16s, F15s) and the F-35 is a far closer option than the F-22. Buying foreign front line fighters, will open permission for "sales" to Israel right away for the F-22.
The F-35 will make good money on it's own (despite it's setbacks), and down the road, probably be the "F-16" of today.
The Defense Industry is a business.
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- #100
Why would it be a gift to the Russians?!?!?! Have we even let them any where NEAR our F-16's before??? The Israelis on the other hand let the Chinese do what ever they want with Block50/52 F-16's for their J-10.Sansei442- who are you agreeing with?
-I doubt the F-35 will go to egypt. It would be a gift to Russia.
-I don't know what they mean, but strange statements came out after Olmert met with Bush and the USAF held exercises with the IAF in the Negev about the US and Israel sharing any and all information on new technology, developments, equipment, purchases, sales, etc...
Something slightly similar (statement) has come out of Japan.
IMO, the US is moving Africom from Germany to probably Morocco (I posted a link a couple weeks ago). This doesn't hurt Europe (European opinion?), but provides the US with not only bases directly in Africa (next to oil), but is an added counterweight to Iran on the other side of the ME. Allows quicker strikes in Africa and strengthens Israel by our placement. Israel still acts as a forward base for us and permits us to enter Gaza/Lebanon/Syria... (out of those talks, I wouldn't be surprised to see, PERHAPS, Israel, Japan, and maybe Australia get permission to buy the F-22) except moving equipment around doesn't require the eye's of several other countries.:unknown
The US is definitely worried about the weapons we've sold Egypt, and the stability of the country--namely succession (also linked this a couple of weeks ago... i can look for it if people want).
I doubt any one will keep buying the F-16's and F-15's after the current outstanding orders are delivered. The F-16's production line is closing at the end of 2008 when Israel gets it's F-16I's and UAE/AF(I think) gets their Block 60/62's. The F-15's production line closes when all outstanding orders are delivered. So I doubt Egypt would buy any more F-16's and would probably go for the F-35. If not there is always Russia.Sorry, I read page 4 before seeing your post here
The US is looking to offset production costs of the F-22 by doing a couple things: keep buying american (down-priced F16s, F15s) and the F-35 is a far closer option than the F-22. Buying foreign front line fighters, will open permission for "sales" to Israel right away for the F-22.
The F-35 will make good money on it's own (despite it's setbacks), and down the road, probably be the "F-16" of today.
The Defense Industry is a business.