Croatian Military Modernisation

NZLAV

New Member
Statement from wikipedia: Government plans to modernize entire Armed Forces at a cost of 2.7 billion USD. Modernization calls for procurement of new fighters, new naval helicopters, new transport helicopters, 4 state of the art stealth corvettes Gowind 200, 4 Gothenburg Class Gunboats Sweden offered as apart of a JAS39 deal, 126 armored personal carriers Patria 8x8 and modernization of M84 Main Battle Tanks. Although procurement of 108 Leopard 2 A4 tanks could still be an option.

I would like to know if anyone can confirm this. The 4 corvettes and 4 gunboats will make it a very capable navy in the region.
 

NZLAV

New Member
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Any input into the Croatian military would be much appreciated...
 

contedicavour

New Member
There was already a thread on Croatian armed forces, mainly led by Isthvan. He is the expert on this field.
From what I've seen so far no firm orders have materialized, though DCN has a good chance of selling 4 Gowind corvettes. A Gripen purchase has been in the rumour mill for quite a while already.

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
During this year MOD should start acquiring new IFV. They still didn't choose between Patria AMV and Pandur II.
Army will also buy new com equipment and additional 300 G36 rifles for troops deployed in Afghanistan and for future contingent in Lebanon. They signed order for 10 IVECO LMVs and should buy additional 60. M-84 modernization will start this year and AFAIK LeoII purchase is someones wet dream.

AFAIK MOD refused offer for Swedish Gothenburg class and they still didn't decided to buy Gowind 200 class (there is local proposal for aprox. 70 m corvette/OPV instead). Also 2 Petar Kreshimir class FAC should be modernized this year.

Air force will start receiving first of 10 Mi 171 helicopters during this year and they should buy 2 zlin 242 light aircrafts for basic training...
Older Mi-8MTV-1 and Pilatus PC-9 should also be modernized during this year...
 
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contedicavour

New Member
During this year MOD should start acquiring new IFV. They still didn't choose between Patria AMV and Pandur II.
Army will also buy new com equipment and additional 300 G36 rifles for troops deployed in Afghanistan and for future contingent in Lebanon. They signed order for 10 IVECO LMVs and should buy additional 60. M-84 modernization will start this year and AFAIK LeoII purchase is someones wet dream.

AFAIK MOD refused offer for Swedish Gothenburg class and they still didn't decided to buy Gowind 200 class (there is local proposal for aprox. 70 m corvette/OPV instead). Also 2 Petar Kreshimir class FAC should be modernized this year.

Air force will start receiving first of 10 Mi 171 helicopters during this year and they should buy 2 zlin 242 light aircrafts for basic training...
Older Mi-8MTV-1 and Pilatus PC-9 should also be modernized during this year...
Well well army and navy will soon be in better shape, but there is virtually no air force anymore... :rolleyes:

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
Well well army and navy will soon be in better shape, but there is virtually no air force anymore... :rolleyes:

cheers
Unfortunately if we are talking about fighters you are right , MiG-21s are at the end of service life and since they received only limited modernization they are practically useless...

On other hand last unmodernized Mi-8MTV1s should be modernized this year, Mi-171 delivery will start this year, An-32s will receive further modification, PC-9s also, Zlins will replace old Utvas as basic trainers and new air control system with FPS-117 radars will finally become fully operational. Compared to last 10 years this is actually improvement...
 
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eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
During this year MOD should start acquiring new IFV. They still didn't choose between Patria AMV and Pandur II.
Army will also buy new com equipment and additional 300 G36 rifles for troops deployed in Afghanistan and for future contingent in Lebanon. They signed order for 10 IVECO LMVs and should buy additional 60. M-84 modernization will start this year and AFAIK LeoII purchase is someones wet dream.

AFAIK MOD refused offer for Swedish Gothenburg class and they still didn't decided to buy Gowind 200 class (there is local proposal for aprox. 70 m corvette/OPV instead). Also 2 Petar Kreshimir class FAC should be modernized this year.

Air force will start receiving first of 10 Mi 171 helicopters during this year and they should buy 2 zlin 242 light aircrafts for basic training...
Older Mi-8MTV-1 and Pilatus PC-9 should also be modernized during this year...
What type of upgrades will be offered on the M-84`s.
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
AFAIK MOD refused offer for Swedish Gothenburg class and they still didn't decided to buy Gowind 200 class (there is local proposal for aprox. 70 m corvette/OPV instead). Also 2 Petar Kreshimir class FAC should be modernized this year.
Why would they refuse this offer? I thought Sweden would give those ships to Croatia for free if they decided to go with Gripen (and I also thought only 2 of the 4 swedish Gothenburg-ships were offered to Croatia?)

(Those "Gunboats" are BTW classified as corvettes in Sweden. Specialised in submarine hunting but also packing 8 RBS-15 SSMs and all the other equipment is state of the art. Only 10 years old and just modernized to reduce radarsignature, work in warmer climates like the mediterranean etc. One of the most powerful and flexible ships in the world in that size)
 

isthvan

New Member
Why would they refuse this offer? I thought Sweden would give those ships to Croatia for free if they decided to go with Gripen (and I also thought only 2 of the 4 swedish Gothenburg-ships were offered to Croatia?)

(Those "Gunboats" are BTW classified as corvettes in Sweden. Specialised in submarine hunting but also packing 8 RBS-15 SSMs and all the other equipment is state of the art. Only 10 years old and just modernized to reduce radarsignature, work in warmer climates like the mediterranean etc. One of the most powerful and flexible ships in the world in that size)
I don't know know exact reason s why MOD refused that offer(and you are correct only 2 were offered) so I can only speculate.

IMHO reason is the same as Swedish reasons to replace them with Visby class; bigger ships can carry better sensor suite,helicopter will provide additional advantages, they can sustain quite longer deployments at sea and can patrol quite larger area.

With 4 new corvette/OPV navy will build and with Petar Kreshimir class modernization there is simple no place for those corvettes/FACs in our fleet. Also since our fleet is currently quite small and all branches are going true personnel downsizing I have some doubts that there would be enough trained personnel to man our FACs, 4 new corvettes and 2 Gothenburg class ships...
 

contedicavour

New Member
I don't know know exact reason s why MOD refused that offer(and you are correct only 2 were offered) so I can only speculate.

IMHO reason is the same as Swedish reasons to replace them with Visby class; bigger ships can carry better sensor suite,helicopter will provide additional advantages, they can sustain quite longer deployments at sea and can patrol quite larger area.

With 4 new corvette/OPV navy will build and with Petar Kreshimir class modernization there is simple no place for those corvettes/FACs in our fleet. Also since our fleet is currently quite small and all branches are going true personnel downsizing I have some doubts that there would be enough trained personnel to man our FACs, 4 new corvettes and 2 Gothenburg class ships...
Well a potential solution could be to turn the FACs to Montenegro and keep the 2 Gotenborg and 4 new corvettes for Croatia. I doubt Montenegro can go on operating the ex Yugoslav Koni, Koncar and Osa (never mind the remaining coastal Sava SSK) without the Serbian personnel. Besides, most ships are very old and haven't been operational for a while.

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
Well a potential solution could be to turn the FACs to Montenegro and keep the 2 Gotenborg and 4 new corvettes for Croatia. I doubt Montenegro can go on operating the ex Yugoslav Koni, Koncar and Osa (never mind the remaining coastal Sava SSK) without the Serbian personnel. Besides, most ships are very old and haven't been operational for a while.

cheers
Even if there would be political will for such move I doubt that Montenegro would take FACs. IIRC they decided to keep small patrol boats as only naval asset.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Even if there would be political will for such move I doubt that Montenegro would take FACs. IIRC they decided to keep small patrol boats as only naval asset.
You mean they are only keeping the Mirna ? Not even the Koncar ?
No customers found yet for Konis and Sava ? I read about Egypt's and Sri Lanka's interests on the Konis but that's it.
If you have other news please share

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
You mean they are only keeping the Mirna ? Not even the Koncar ?
No customers found yet for Konis and Sava ? I read about Egypt's and Sri Lanka's interests on the Konis but that's it.
If you have other news please share

cheers
IIRC Montenegro decided that they will have only patrol force since realistically they don't have need, founds nor trained personal to keep fleet of that size going...
As for export of those ships it seams that we heard same rumors. If we consider that fleet maintenance newer had high priority during last decade and that majority of systems on those ships have doubtful usefulness in modern environment I will be surprised if they find any customers...
 

Ragusian

New Member
Also since our fleet is currently quite small and all branches are going true personnel downsizing I have some doubts that there would be enough trained personnel to man our FACs, 4 new corvettes and 2 Gothenburg class ships...
There's more than enough personnel to man the extra 2 Gottenburgs(remember, there's the new class of bigger minehunters probably coming, new class of support/logistic ships, and I think around 11 non-combant ships scheduled to enter service in the next 7-8 years), but I believe, bar the very needed ASW component, they wouldn't offer anything we do not have at the moment, and are probably somewhat more expensive to operate then our FACs. And they still wouldn't be suited to do patrols.
 

contedicavour

New Member
There's more than enough personnel to man the extra 2 Gottenburgs(remember, there's the new class of bigger minehunters probably coming, new class of support/logistic ships, and I think around 11 non-combant ships scheduled to enter service in the next 7-8 years), but I believe, bar the very needed ASW component, they wouldn't offer anything we do not have at the moment, and are probably somewhat more expensive to operate then our FACs. And they still wouldn't be suited to do patrols.
IMHO the Gotenborgs (created for the Baltic) could adapt well to the relatively similar Adriatic. They are themselves an evolution of the Spica FACs on which the Koncar and your latest FACs have been developed. They have very modern radars and electronics and could easily complement your existing FACs even if I agree that they wouldn't bring much more than what you already have.
The issue is which strings the Swedes would attach to such a lease/gift... if they come with the obligation to buy Gripens for instance then it's a bit too much of a complicated gift.

cheers
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
I would´nt really compare the Petar Kreshimir-class FACs with the Gothenburg-class corvettes. Size, and crew, wise they may be compare but not in performance and tasks. With its radar, sonars, FCS, EW, weapons etc Gothenburg is more comparable with a frigate. It lacks the long-range SAMs and endurance though due to its size.

As I wrote before. Two of the ships (HMS Sundsvall and HMS Gävle, wich have been offered to Croatia) have recently been trough MLU. This modernisation included modifications so that they could operate in internationell missions, work in warm climates and have longer endurance etc. They are also part of the EU internationell rapid deployment force and one of the ships (HMS Gävle) is currently patrolling outside the Lebanon-coast as part of the UN-force. She has performed excellent and just recently got her mission extended down there. So there´s no need to worry about these ships not working in the adriatic sea conditions.

Don´t know if Croatia has such large waters to patrol, but looking at the map it rather seems that the waters surrounding Sweden (Baltic sea and Gulf of Bothnia) is rather similar, if not even bigger. But offcourse, a bigger patrol ship is preferred at such duties. But in that case you buy a big patrol ship, not a frigate.

I don´t think this offer is on the table if not Croatia chooses the Gripen, cause we are planning on keeping them for another 15 years (they were just modernized). IIRC the plannes for the swedish navy is to have 5 Visby-corvettes, 4 other corvettes (either 4 Gothenburg or 2 Gothenburg+2 Stockholm-class) and build 2 frigates (that will probably replace 2 corvettes). So if Sweden wanted to offer Croatia corvettes without the Gripen it would be either the non-modernized Gothenburg or the recently modernized, but older Stockholm-class corvettes. The only reason these Gothenburg were offered was cause they can operate in the adriatic right now and that HMS Gävle is allready down there...
 

Ragusian

New Member
Don´t know if Croatia has such large waters to patrol, but looking at the map it rather seems that the waters surrounding Sweden (Baltic sea and Gulf of Bothnia) is rather similar, if not even bigger. But offcourse, a bigger patrol ship is preferred at such duties. But in that case you buy a big patrol ship, not a frigate.
Baltic sea is bigger, but our coastline is huge(5500 km+).

The issue is which strings the Swedes would attach to such a lease/gift... if they come with the obligation to buy Gripens for instance then it's a bit too much of a complicated gift.
The Gothenburgs are offered with the gripen(s).

and build 2 frigates (that will probably replace 2 corvettes)
What's the news with that? Specifications? I remember reading something about the project. When are these ships due?
 

Maskirovka

Banned Member
Baltic sea is bigger, but our coastline is huge(5500 km+).
http://www.europeetravel.com/images/maps/europe-political-large.gif

Take a look at the map and compare the coastlines of Sweden and Croatia... :)

That´s not really an issue. To patrolling open seas you prefer a 100+ metres, 2000+ tonnes ship with long endurance. Not an 30-90 metre long FAC/corvette/frigate...
Ships like Gothenburg and Petar Kreshimir was simply not designed to do long range patrolduties in "blue waters". The two ships of the Gothenburg offered to Croatia have been modernized to be better at this but it´s still not the best option in such tasks...


What's the news with that? Specifications? I remember reading something about the project. When are these ships due?
IIRC they are planned to be in service in 2015. There have been several swedish proposals ranging from 90 metres to 120 metres, ships that would essentially be a larger version of the Visby. One question however is if the hull should be built in sandwich-construction carbon fibre reinforced plastic (CFRP) (like the Visby) or conventionell steel. The CFRP provides numerous advantages but one advantage is allso a disadvantage. The weight, CFRP weighs about 50% of steel and that is offcourse good but it allso makes the ship, and more important - the crew, more sensitive to high seas.
The last thing I heard was that it was leaning towards the 120 metres version with conventionell steel hull. The bigger size was simply due to the facts that the swedish armed forces today emphazises all its resources on internationell missions where endurance is a key part.

A few weeks ago the new government and defenceminister also said it was not certain the new frigates has to built in Sweden by Kockums. We may just as well buy a foreign ship (wich we have´nt done since WW2 when we needed to increase our navy fast and bought some italian destroyers cause all our shipyards were busy). The hull would be built elsewhere but the equipment would offcourse be swedish and installed in a swedish dockyard. He said it may not be possible to design and produce both submarines and warships in Sweden, we could have to choose one of them.
I think we will buy the frigates elsewhere (german Meko perhaps) and continue designing and producing subs. There is simply no way Sweden will stop building submarines...
 

contedicavour

New Member
Wow it has been since the '50s that Sweden hasn't had major surface combatants. I remember seeing in Stockholm models of the 3 Kronor light cruisers of WW2 and of the destroyers you mention.
It would be logical for Sweden to follow Germany's decision of scrapping FACs and replacing them with light frigates/corvettes (K130). Besides the K130s carry Swedish SSMs.
Back to the Croatia topic : FACs were conceived for fast attacks through the Adriatic from more or less hidden bases in the islands and along the rugged coastline. It's true that changing from fast attacks to long patrols requires quite a change in ship requirements.

cheers
 
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