Croatian Military Modernisation

[Maskirovka]

What's the news with that? Specifications? I remember reading something about the project. When are these ships due?

I know this is a thread about Croatian military but I just going to respond to previous posts...
Today they released the budget proposal for the navy.
It says nothing about the new frigates, I don´t know if they have scrapped those plannes or what. It however does says that two Gothenburg-class corvettes will recieve MLU. This probably means godbye to the Stockholm-class corvettes (if not Croatia decides to buy Gripen and get a couple of corvettes offcourse)...
The navy is allso going to get two combat supportships. To support amphibous operations and other navy ships and subs. I will guess it will be something similar to the danish Absolon ships. These are kinda like LPDs armed as a warships with SSMs, SAMs etc. Perhaps the plan is that these two ships, wich are alot more flexible and bigger, will replace the frigates. The ships will enter service in 2013 and 2015.

Wow it has been since the '50s that Sweden hasn't had major surface combatants. I remember seeing in Stockholm models of the 3 Kronor light cruisers of WW2 and of the destroyers you mention.
It would be logical for Sweden to follow Germany's decision of scrapping FACs and replacing them with light frigates/corvettes (K130). Besides the K130s carry Swedish SSMs.
cheers

Not important but the Tre Kronor and Göta Lejon cruisers were built in the 50´s. And Sweden has scrapped all its FAC´s. The Stockholm- and Gothenburg-class ships may be small in size but they are called coastal corvettes in Sweden due to their ASW capabilities. (They were mainly designed for ASW in mind)

Edit: The proposal allso says that submarines will continue to be designed and built in Sweden. This means Kockums can keep on with their next generation submarine, the A-26...

 

[NZLAV]

Can someone please give me a list of ships the croatian navy will have by 2012

 

[contedicavour]

I know this is a thread about Croatian military but I just going to respond to previous posts...
Today they released the budget proposal for the navy.
It says nothing about the new frigates, I don´t know if they have scrapped those plannes or what. It however does says that two Gothenburg-class corvettes will recieve MLU. This probably means godbye to the Stockholm-class corvettes (if not Croatia decides to buy Gripen and get a couple of corvettes offcourse)...
The navy is allso going to get two combat supportships. To support amphibous operations and other navy ships and subs. I will guess it will be something similar to the danish Absolon ships. These are kinda like LPDs armed as a warships with SSMs, SAMs etc. Perhaps the plan is that these two ships, wich are alot more flexible and bigger, will replace the frigates. The ships will enter service in 2013 and 2015.

Edit: The proposal allso says that submarines will continue to be designed and built in Sweden. This means Kockums can keep on with their next generation submarine, the A-26...

Very interesting thanks ! These Swedish armed LPDs are real news !
Regarding the SSKs, the remaining 4-5 (Gotland/Vastergotland classes) are stll very recent subs. I wonder if Kockums can survive (even if HDW can send them some work) until A26 can be built. Especially as all the other Scandinavian partners seem to have abandoned the programme.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Can someone please give me a list of ships the croatian navy will have by 2012

Today there are 2 well armed FACs (Kresimir) and another 2 older ones (Koncar), plus a few non-missile patrol crafts (Mirna), coastal LSTs and a new class of coastal minehunters.
In 5 years there could be up to 4 new OPVH.

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

Can someone please give me a list of ships the croatian navy will have by 2012

Most probably...

- 4 corvettes of before mentioned specifications, 2 armed, 2 not, but built in modular fashion so all could be regarded as military units

- 2 modernised FACs of Kresimir class(they are to receive their upgrades soon, aswell as new engines)

- FAC Sibenik(the remaining Rade Koncar class)... that is a question. It is already very, very old, and I have my doubts, but for now, let's say it will be alive in 2012

- the patrol crafts of Mirna class(or now caled the Hrvatska Kostajnica class) are most likely to be replaced(soon) with new 100 tonns patrol vessels being designed by the same company as those corvettes. I don't know the number, probably around 6 I'd say.

- around 3-4 small coastal minehunters of the new Korcula class, of which the first ship is already in service.

- a class of bigger minehunters( around 400 tonns), unknown numbers

- 2 LST, Krka and Cetina, most probably they will be around in 2012.

- 2 ships Andrija Mohorovicic and Faust Vrancic, now called "rescue ships"

- and around 11 non-combat newbuilds are planned by the 2015 timeframe. However, I wouldn't trust those plans too much, as it seems that someone has finaly seen that the navy needs more attention, as the corvettes are now being built much faster and sooner than originaly planned. So some surprises are possible.

I have my doubts about some ships mentioned above, the FAC Sibenik mainly. I wouldn't be suprised to see some kind of a new class of support/logistics ship
atleast being proposed by 2012...
Maybe even the ruterun of the submarine force

 

[Maskirovka]

Very interesting thanks ! These Swedish armed LPDs are real news !
Regarding the SSKs, the remaining 4-5 (Gotland/Vastergotland classes) are stll very recent subs. I wonder if Kockums can survive (even if HDW can send them some work) until A26 can be built. Especially as all the other Scandinavian partners seem to have abandoned the programme.

cheers

Kockums will survive thanks to the fact they will will keep maintain and modernize the swedish fleet of subs as well as the singaporean fleet (they have sold 6 subs to Singapore in the recent years). And Japan have decided to fit all their future subs (perhaps modernize some of their existing fleet) with sterling AIP produced by Kockums.
The A26 (or Viking-project is you wish) is supported by Finland, Norway, Singapore and Finland I believe (and Sweden offcourse).

The future swedish LPD´s is still a mystery. It could be something in line with the danish Absolon-class and that would also replace the frigates or it could be something like the dutch Enforcer-LPDs wich we could use with the amphiboius battalion and other groundforces we have reported to the EU Rapid Deployment Forces (Battle groups) . Dont really know what ship is the most likely... perhaps a couple of dutch Enforcers that would be protected by a couple of Visbys enable to carry an entire mech. tank battalion and an amphibous company?

 

[contedicavour]

The A26 (or Viking-project is you wish) is supported by Finland, Norway, Singapore and Finland I believe (and Sweden offcourse).

Regarding Viking I have often read that all countries except obviously Sweden itself had retreated from the programme and stopped any R&D expenditure. Which makes sense : Norway has the 6 modern Ula and won't be replacing them for a long time ; Finland doesn't have the money and the political will to invest in SSKs (especially vs peace treaty with Russia) ; Singapore was mostly interested in enlarged Gotland now rather than a Viking in 5-10 years' time. Beyond all that, Sweden itself is unlikely to build new SSKs for at least 10 years since its remaining subs are very modern (the 2 last Vastergotland being just modernized).
I wasn't aware Sterling AIP came from Kockums, thanks for that.

cheers

 

[Maskirovka]

Regarding Viking I have often read that all countries except obviously Sweden itself had retreated from the programme and stopped any R&D expenditure. Which makes sense : Norway has the 6 modern Ula and won't be replacing them for a long time ; Finland doesn't have the money and the political will to invest in SSKs (especially vs peace treaty with Russia) ; Singapore was mostly interested in enlarged Gotland now rather than a Viking in 5-10 years' time. Beyond all that, Sweden itself is unlikely to build new SSKs for at least 10 years since its remaining subs are very modern (the 2 last Vastergotland being just modernized).
I wasn't aware Sterling AIP came from Kockums, thanks for that.

cheers

The old project known as Viking is basicly dead, it was a joint project between Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Since then the danes have disbanded their submarine fleet and is not likely to rebuild one.

Kockums took the experiences and know-how from the Viking-projekt aswell as their prevoius subs (mainly the Gotland) and started another project called A-26 or NGU (Next Generation Submarine). If you want to, you can call this the Viking-project, since it kind of like is...This project is run at a slower pace and will not see service for maybe 5-10 years from now, a convinient time to start replacing swedish Västergötland, norwegian Ula and other navies vessels.

Several nations are intrested on getting aboard, some as real partners and others just as observers. IIRC countries like Norway, Finland, Poland and Singapore are involved in some degree as observers at least or have shown interest.

The treaty between Finland and old USSR was disbanded over 10 years ago with the collaps of the USSR, so they are entitled to get subs if they want to. Actually, in the early 90´s it was close that Finland bought one or a couple of 2nd hand subs from Sweden- just to get som experience and have a real sub to train ASW against. Today, Finland could never afford a brand new submarine, but there have been signals that they are still interested in a submarine fleet. Perhaps the 2nd hand Näcken-class Sweden still has? HMS Näcken was just recently modernized and has had an sterling AIP since 1988 (she was the operational AIP-SSK in the world, 8 years before Gotland and allmost 20 years before the germans). These three subs built in 1980 is just lying at port right now...

As for Singapore they have showed the greatest interest in this project and with their purchases of swedish subs the recent decade (both Sjöormen-class and Västergötland-class) I would guess they will go for A-26.

(BTW, I remember more work for Kockums in the coming years. The installation of AIP on the Singaporean Västergötland-class. The swedish Västergötland got AIP´s installed during the MLU a few years ago. I have no idea why Singapore did´nt ordered that on their subs when they bought them, they where allready going to be in drydock recieving MLU and upgrades, why not make them AIP while your at it?)

 

[contedicavour]

Thanks for your very interesting post.
I'm wondering to what extent HDW will allow its Swedish affiliate Kockums to remain a serious competitor to its U214s ? Singapore is 100% Swedish oriented in its purchases, but Norway and Poland will probably hesitate between A26 and U214...

cheers

 

[Maskirovka]

Thanks for your very interesting post.
I'm wondering to what extent HDW will allow its Swedish affiliate Kockums to remain a serious competitor to its U214s ? Singapore is 100% Swedish oriented in its purchases, but Norway and Poland will probably hesitate between A26 and U214...

cheers

To be honest, I don´t know. It seems like a an odd solution that two companies- building allmost entirely two different subs, are competing for the same orders while owned by one company only. I would have thought that ze Germans would have incorporated the best of both submarines into one ship, move the docks to Germany and give the AIP-choice to the customer - Sterling or fuel cells?
The main difference between the two subs right now I think is the pricetag. The German subs are almost twice as expensive as the swedish ones. Much of that is because of the fuel-cell AIP. Thats why I was very surprised when Japan chose Kockums Sterlings in their subs since they spend so much money on their defenceforces-specially the navy. But the 2nd generation Sterling installed in the Västergötland has basicly the same performance as the fuel cell powered U-214s coming out right now but much cheaper! And the Sterling has great potential to be even more powerful while the fuel-cell engine is twice the money with no growth potential.
Germany has sold their U-209 and types all over the world, it was a huge success. That´s why that success has continued with the U-212/214 (navies that are replacing their old german subs with new (german)ones).

I think Norway and Poland will go for the Kockums A-26. Mainly because A-26 has been ordered to to no less then the Gotland-class. The pricetag will be the winning key in the future - and the Sterling winnes there...


BTW, there no risk Kockums will die without the subs. They also produce all the ships the the swedish and other navies....

 

[NZLAV]

There have been rumours the the Croatian Air Force is purchasing 14+12 fighters. I know the 14 has been confirmed, bu the the additional 12?

 

[Ragusian]

As far as I know, the number is around 12 planes, at first.

 

[NZLAV]

The first order of 12 was raised to 14 several months ago. And apparently 2 more orders are to come. An additional 12 in the first half of the next decade and then an additional 4 two-seaters to assist with training. But this information was on a Croatian forum so I can not confirm this.

 

[NZLAV]

OPV's...any news?

 

[Ragusian]

OPV's...any news?

No news about OPVs, but I did get some pictures yesterday of croatian navy and airforce in their preparations for celebration of 15 years since the liberation of Dubrovnik.

Here's some...

I expect there will be some informations about OPVs soon... They are scheduled to begin construction later this year....

 

[NZLAV]

Thanks heaps!!! Are you croatian?
The OPV's are seperate from the corvettes and gunboats right? I Head that Croatia was getting 4 state of the art corvettes and 4 gunboats?

By 2020 Croatia will hav 4 new OPV, 4 new Corvettes and 4 new gun boats right?

 

[NZLAV]

No news about OPVs, but I did get some pictures yesterday of croatian navy and airforce in their preparations for celebration of 15 years since the liberation of Dubrovnik.

Here's some...

I expect there will be some informations about OPVs soon... They are scheduled to begin construction later this year....

In then pic I can see 2 gunboats, a missile boat and what is the ship on the left?

 

[Ragusian]

The ship on the left is the DBM-82 Krka, amphibious minelayer.

Thanks heaps!!! Are you croatian?
The OPV's are seperate from the corvettes and gunboats right? I Head that Croatia was getting 4 state of the art corvettes and 4 gunboats?

By 2020 Croatia will hav 4 new OPV, 4 new Corvettes and 4 new gun boats right?

Yes, I'm croatian.
No, the corvettes are the OPVs. The difference is that there's going to be a coast guard version(non-armed) and a CroNavy version of the ship(fully armed). And they will be designed and built in Croatia.

As far as I know, there will be no new gunboats in the navy. The remaining three(Dmitar Zvonimir, Sibenik, Kralj Petar IV.) will receive new engines this year, aswell as a RBS-15 modernisation and service by swedes. And that's it.
By 2020, you can expect to see atleast 6 corvettes/OPVs, probably a new logistic ships, new smaller patrol boats and possibly even a bigger class of ships(light frigate?) aswell as a bigger class of minehunters in the croatian navy.

 

[Totoro]

6 opvs/corvettes? Where has that been said? I've never seen any other info than the 2 corvettes + 2 opvs, for a total of 4. I'm all for a smaller class patrol boats (for coast guard) but an even bigger warship (light frigate) sounds like a waste of money.

 

[Ragusian]

6 opvs/corvettes? Where has that been said? I've never seen any other info than the 2 corvettes + 2 opvs, for a total of 4. I'm all for a smaller class patrol boats (for coast guard) but an even bigger warship (light frigate) sounds like a waste of money.

Yes, a total of 4 which will be built in about 2 or 3 years. So, I was guesing that by 2020 most of the gunboats will be retired(if not all), which means additional ships will have to be constructed to replace the gunboats. Hence I've said atleast 6 corvettes by 2020.
And yes, there's a chance of even a bigger class of warships(2000 tonns+). There was even a crazy document done by one of our experts in 2000. which suggested buying a pair of Perry frigates... So I guess there is a chance of seeing something similar in service with the croatian navy by 2020. I only hope it would be a domestical design, should be interesting to see what our designers would come up to since they have no previous experience with ships that big.
I see no problem with bigger ships. Our goverment already announced an increase of our participation in international peacekeeping and military missions. I guess larger ships would come handy to do that.