FutureTank
Banned Member
Well, Germans certainly didn't mind moving to Russia before 1917
With all due respect it seem to me your statements can be applied to almost any country in the World.
European Armour
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With all due respect it seem to me your statements can be applied to almost any country in the World.
The gas plays of russia in the last time are watched closely by our population and government and there are european countries which much more depend on russian energy than we are.
Also there was much criticism about Putins behaviour against the free press.
The relations to Russia are more a have to than anything else.
@lobbie111
What kind of unified communication system do you mean?
It works in NATO and EU battlegroups as well as between various different EU countries all around the globe on their missions.
Also there was much criticism about Putins behaviour against the free press.
The relations to Russia are more a have to than anything else.
@lobbie111
What kind of unified communication system do you mean?
It works in NATO and EU battlegroups as well as between various different EU countries all around the globe on their missions.
Definitely a have-to more than anything else. Also a fair amount of hoping that Russia will come around to the Western way of thinking, because no one wants to go through the Cold War again. But Russia is not European in its thinking, hasn't been since the tsars. It's Russian in its thinking, which is more unique than, say, Germans are German in their thinking or Italians are Italian in their thinking. Part of the reason for that is its vast size, spanning two continents, much of which has been more or less isolated from the rest of the world for centuries due to weather and distance.
I'm not saying Russia is as different from Europe as China is; far from it. I'm saying that the last sixteen years, and the time of Putin's administration in particular, have demonstrated some fundamental differences in culture that will prevent Europe and Russia from being much more than mutually suspicious business partners for the foreseeable future.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Rubbish. How is Russian 'thinking' different to European 'thinking'? And since which 'tsars'? You just delivered a common Cold War stereotype.
With the recent shutdown of a pipeline to us due to the conflict between Belarussia and Russia pur relations don't get better.
There has been a far amount of criticism of the fact that we get so much energy from russia and this opinion just got pushed much further.
There has been a far amount of criticism of the fact that we get so much energy from russia and this opinion just got pushed much further.
I have to argee with you, we'll be waiting till the cows come home for the Russian to come around to 'Our way of thinking'
The only thing I would add is that Russia has always looked east and south, as well as west. They never wanted to be like us, they wanted to be better than us.
How do you explain Vald Putins approval ratings.
Ya, remember Hitler, Italian fashism, Baltic fashism, East-European ugly nationalism, Franko in Spain, segregation and racism in USA... and all that only 50 years ago. Heck, even 20 years ago Italian or Spanian coudnt be called more "democratic" than Russia today. So, i wouldnt call russians basically more "unique" than, say, finns or italians. The only unique things about Russia is its power in all means - military, resourse, scientific, etc. Whats why Europe will be always wary of Russia.
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You should always differentiate the producers and transiters here. In SU time it was very easy - SU was both producer and transiter, so it was to blame for any trouble. Luckly, there was none. Now, after SU disintegration, situation changed. The oil and gas, before recived by Germany, must go throu several independed transit states, which are, well, independed from Russia. As such, corresponding problems arise. There are no simply answer here, and given the nature of gas and oil production Europa can do exactly NOTHING here except direct occupation of Russia and all sorrounding countries. Europa will not be able to get "independed" of Russia (or Iran, Kazahstan, Turkey, etc) oil. Remember, oil is not only energy, its also a base for chemical indusrty. At least in foreseeable future it will be always cheaper to use oil&gas than alternatives, and given highly concurrent nature of today's world economic nobody would shot yourself in the foot by resigning from oil.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The interesting discussion on Russia, oil and Europe is better suited to be continued on:
Will Russia ever regain it's Military might?
Cheers
Will Russia ever regain it's Military might?
Cheers
FutureTank
Banned Member
This is some kind of ahistorical twisted reasoning!!!
Russia wanted to be 'like us' since the late 17th century.
Other then Poland, Russia had only been in one serious conflict with Europe, and that was Napoleon, and no-one liked Napoleon!
Was Hitler 'like us'?
Russia before revolution was a major area of investment for Europeans. The Russian royal family and a lot of its upper society was European in its roots.
Russia changed into Soviet Union by adopting German version of Franco-Italian social philosophy dominant in Europe at the turn of the 20th century.
The government after WW2 in the most Liberal of countries in Europe, the UK, was Labour, and Socialist at that!
There is nothing really wrong with socialism. All it ways is that there needs to be fairer distribution of resources in societies, and currently EU social policies though not communist, are essentially socialist. The current, and past US administrations struggle with this ballance of market economy and social protection. Helth care, job creation, youth policies, crime reduction, social justice - do any of these sound familiar?
Now, what is Russia going through?
It is changing not just its structure and national economy, but its society. When this happened in the US, even marginally, it created the Great Depression! Shal I give you a lesson on the US society during the Great Depression?
Putin is coping with the changes the best he can under circumstances, as is the rest of Russian society. However there are no riots, revolutions and a dozen new nations were created relatively painlessly. This did not occur in the US in 1862.
Lets put this thread to 'sleep' because the discussion will only become more damaging to your point of view.
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All: Please note GD's suggestion - which is now a request.
The topic is European Armour - not geopolitical or transnational developments in a society.
The topic is European Armour - not geopolitical or transnational developments in a society.
contedicavour
New Member
Ah at last
I have one thing to bring all of us safely back on topic
France's MBT and AIFV manufacturer, the former GIAT, now called Nexter, is looking for partners in Europe to ensure its long term viability. Industry consolidation in this sector of defence industry has hardly even started with each country maintaining a presence (at least the main ones, Spain, Italy, UK, France, Germany...).
cheers
Guys, I have read a lot of comments on this site including this thread about the decline of armour in Europe. I just wanted to add this for people to think about:
If Europe can field 2000 modern MTBs then by my calculations it can equip 2 armoured and 4 mechanised divisions and 2 armoured cavalry regiments assuming each of these units is equipped along the lines of the US Army TO&E. And still have 600 odd MTBs spare.
That I believe is parity with the Regular US army.
As I say something to think about.
If Europe can field 2000 modern MTBs then by my calculations it can equip 2 armoured and 4 mechanised divisions and 2 armoured cavalry regiments assuming each of these units is equipped along the lines of the US Army TO&E. And still have 600 odd MTBs spare.
That I believe is parity with the Regular US army.
As I say something to think about.
Out of all the European countries, who has the most MTBs, excluding Russia out of this equation.
Does Europeans really view Turkey as part of Europe.
Me not and I tend to think that I am part of a majority with this. But this is way to political I think.
So greece should be a good candidate if you look at planned numbers.
For example Poland also operates many MBTs but is going to throw a huge part of them away.
So greece should be a good candidate if you look at planned numbers.
For example Poland also operates many MBTs but is going to throw a huge part of them away.
Are they going to scrap the PT-91`s and upgraded T-72`s, and just keep the LEO`s.Me not and I tend to think that I am part of a majority with this. But this is way to political I think.
So greece should be a good candidate if you look at planned numbers.
For example Poland also operates many MBTs but is going to throw a huge part of them away.
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