European Armour
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FutureTank
Banned Member
Who talked of more tanks? :unknown
The are significantly reducing their numbers and I totally agree with them.
I talked about that a later upgrade of the Leo IIA4s is a possibility to enhance the capabilities of their armored units without the need for new tanks.
The are significantly reducing their numbers and I totally agree with them.
I talked about that a later upgrade of the Leo IIA4s is a possibility to enhance the capabilities of their armored units without the need for new tanks.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Sorry, I misunderstood
FutureTank
Banned Member
I can understand German tankers wanting to retain black cavalry uniforms, but Poles? Their colour is blue and crimsonNo prob.
Did I mentioned the really nice tank jumpsuits Poland is using?
They are black!!!
A dream for any tanker, at least in germany were black is the traditional barret colour for armored troops. :nutkick
Nearer 3000 than 2000 total holdings of modern western tanks (Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Leclerc, Ariete) within the EU, plus 350 in non-EU NATO countries in Europe, & 370 in a non-EU non-NATO W. European country (Switzerland). Of course, some of those are reserves, schools, etc.
And quite a few other tanks. PT-91, T-72, Leopard, M60, AMX-30, M48A5, T-55.
FutureTank
Banned Member
I'm still not sure what the purpose of this accounting exercise is
I went to a DFAT/Austrade meeting of central european countries recently - the ex warpac countries were the most anti-russian of anything I've ever seen - they make Joe McArthy look like a child care operator....
They literally would rather blow themselves up than go back into a russian cloak.
Is it? I find Poland incredibly dynamic - they are keen to move forward, have sold off the crappy state assets and are working very tirelessly in promoting business opportunities very very aggressively..
In fact its more cost beneficial for me to trade out of Poland than to trade out of Eastern Germany where you can almost swim in business incentives
Poland is going to be the wild card economy in the "new EU" - they're hungry, and they're close to the action.
I think you underestimate and generalise about them from the distracted and inaccurate perception governed by distance. I've seen them change dramatically in 4 years - far more vigorously and without the social turmoil that was assumed would follow.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Well, 65 years ago they had a choice of fascism or armed democracy, and most chose fascism. Poland and her allies failed to offer adequate resistance (suggesting democracy failed). Communism won.
Now, if they are "anti-Russian" then they are just racist.
If they are anti-Communist, then they are ungreatfull SBs living in the past. And if they think they are going to get a 'level p[laying field' in the global marketplace, then of course they probably know they are not the only people who are 'hungry'
And if they think Russia is being unfair in its behaviour, they should try living in North America. Doesn't Poland rime with Mexico?
Grand Danois
Entertainer
IIRC the Eurozone had a growth of 3.4% and 'old ' EU countries outside of the Eurozone were slightly higher. OTOH GDP per capita is not that high in Poland.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Maybe, so we will watch and see. However Poland's overall economic posture hadn't changed dramaticaly from that of it's historical role. It's hammed in between Scandinavia, Germany and Russia, with more competitors in Hungary, Czech and Slovak, Romania and Bulgarian republics (to say nothing of the former Yugoslavian states and Ukraine).
BTW, the Russians are not sleeping either.
That has to be the most simplistic summary of an historical event that I've seen on here for years. I hope you're capable of better. Especially if you think they're ungrateful SB's - you need to have a cup of tea with some of the old solidarity members to get some perspective.Well, 65 years ago they had a choice of fascism or armed democracy, and most chose fascism. Poland and her allies failed to offer adequate resistance (suggesting democracy failed). Communism won.
Now, if they are "anti-Russian" then they are just racist.
If they are anti-Communist, then they are ungreatfull SBs living in the past. And if they think they are going to get a 'level p[laying field' in the global marketplace, then of course they probably know they are not the only people who are 'hungry'
And if they think Russia is being unfair in its behaviour, they should try living in North America. Doesn't Poland rime with Mexico?
You seriously want to judge the Poles from the benefit of an ivory tower 12000km away? Good on you.
I think they're far more aware of how the market place works than you actually do re central europe.
FutureTank
Banned Member
Simple, or simplistic? I can expand in another thread, but I doubt you need the education
Did I get any history wrong?
We have some Solitarity 'members' here also in case you haven't met them. Very few however remember the treatment Poles got from NAZIs in 1939 (and yes, I know they didn't get better from USSR, but who attacked them?).
Well, this "the ex warpac countries were the most anti-russian of anything I've ever seen - they make Joe McArthy look like a child care operator....
They literally would rather blow themselves up than go back into a russian cloak" did not leave much to the interpretation. How do you interpret anti-Russian?
Ok, so maybe I'm not aware of Central European market place, but since when was Poland in Central Europe? Or maybe they forgot who gave them East Prussia?
Anyway, this is probably way off thread, so I will not go into economics as much as it will give me a chance to revisit some of my research from 6 years ago.
FutureTank
Banned Member
I don't think I do judge the Poles. They do a good job for themselves.
I knew, and know full well their attitude towards USSR in the past (and Imperial Russia before that), and RF now.
However, that attitude is a consequence of their national helplessness in the face of the forces of history. They judge themselves victims, and desire revenge. They had learned nothing in the last 60 years.
Hating Russians NOW can not change that history any more so then the Russians can change it, and they had lost far more then Poles.
It was however the Russians who chose to step back and not start WW3 over Poland again, and the Russians then stood in the streets and defied tanks so Poles didn't have to (like Germans, Hungarians and Czechs did).
I think the expression 'ungratefull' is rather appropriate.
No, I don't need the education and I'm not interested in profiling your opinion on Polish history. Hint: My daughter is part Polish.Simple, or simplistic? I can expand in another thread, but I doubt you need the education
Did I get any history wrong?
They certainly remember the 70's and 80's. and yes, I have come across a few ex-Solidarity members. Interestingly enough, a few are consular and trade officials in Oz. (Sydney and Canberra spring to mind)
Solidarity members were beaten up by both Polish security and also KGB/GRU - maybe thats where they get their angst from? The influx of Poles into Canada and Australia is probably linked a little to the sudden ability to get out when the rules were relaxed. Spoken to any Hungarians recently? Strangely enough, they hold similar views.
Poland comes under the Central European Bureau for Austrade and DFAT.
It includes, Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Greec, Romania, Bosnia-Herzogovina, Serbia, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, and anything wiothin the sphere of the Balkans. Read my posts carefully prior to responding.
conversely, get with the present - it helps appreciate the past.
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In real terms, I don't need or want to continue this particular off topic item. I'm happy with knowing where you stand.
If you're interested in continuing the discussion, then http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=49n exists for such postings.....
I however won't be a participant.
It's actually one of the slowest growing new members at the moment, & slipping down the rankings. But all the Central & East European new members are catching up on the EU average, even the slowest-growing.
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/po...STRIND_ECOBAC&root=STRIND_ECOBAC/ecobac/eb011
Or, to summarise - preliminary estimates for 2006
EU average GDP per capita (25 countries) = 100
New members & candidates
Cyprus 88
Slovenia 84
Czech Republic 76
Malta 70
Estonia 65 (climbing fast - double-digit growth)
Hungary 64 (just been overtaken)
Slovakia 59
Lithuania 55 (climbing fast)
Latvia 52 (climbing fast - double-digit growth)
Poland 51 (just been overtaken)
Croatia 49 (candidate)
Romania 36
Bulgaria 34
Turkey 28
Makedonia 26
Compare 1997 -
Hungary 50
Slovakia 47
Poland 44
Croatia 41
Estonia 38
Lithuania 37
Latvia 33
"Simplistic" doesn't do justice to this summation. "Utterly ridiculous" is more like it. I'll add that the Polish armed forces fought well during WW-ll they simply got swamped between two super-powers. Even still the Poles had a well organized and courageous resistance group. If anything the Poles got stabbed in the back both in 1939 and after the war by the Western allies again.
When exactly did this happen? And I'll bet you mean "Soviets" right? A little history lesson for you, What started the eventual Polish march to freedom was a 1980 workers revolt, also one in 1950, 1970, and 1976, long before such sentiment arose in Russia. At the time the Polish workers strikes were extremely unpopular among ordinary Russians, who considered the Pole "Lazy" and "spoiled". It was during this 1980 revolt that a man named Lech Walesa started making a name for himself.
I dont know. Maybe you we rent alive during this time and that explains your statements. I was part of NATO at the time, and even if I wasnt I knew that Poland was not in the organization. That means your statement about WW-lll is ridiculous. There was never a chance of a world war starting over Poland just like there was no chance in 1956 Hungary, where the Reds did actually run over people in tanks.
What kept the Reds from starting WW-lll was decades of Western sons standing firm against them, "with the help of about 20,000 nukes".
Grand Danois
Entertainer
I'm beginning to count on you to fill out my incomplete lists.
Anyway, haven't thought of that perspective. One somehow gets duped by the 5++ % growth rates in that part of Europe. Though I know the Balts to be exceptional. At any measure I'm happy to see they're catching up with 'old' Europe.
Until late 1944. And since 1989. The period in between was exceptional. Back to normal now.
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