Australian M1A1 Abrams technology

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Does it? According to whom? Most of the references I have indicate that they have developed their own tactical doctrine and used it, since the Civil War days.
The only thing that would be different is the type of terrain that they would have to invade, granted - right now they are watching us very closely and would like to adapt their tactics to mirror the U.S.

This was only a suggestion to utilize the NTC, all the resources are there to have a good combined arms exercise either with Miles or live fire, I do not see what difference it would make as to what type of threat that you are facing, you would still get the benefits of working as a team. Either way I am quite confident that the Australian miltary will provide the best training for it`s soldiers now and into the future.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
How can you deny Soviet Red Army doctrine dominating the PLA? You act like the rise of communist China was another world from the Soviets... it wasn't. Mao copied the Reds all the way down to the olive drab. They drew upon the same doctine and theories. The only difference in doctrine and equipment is a lack of it. The PLA has always been a poor version of the Red Army until recently, now they actually start to measure up. The fact you haven't provided any examples leads all of us to believe you speak with no authority on this subject.
Except of course you ignore that Mao's theories on revolution ran completely counter to Marxist-Leninism at the time, which held that only those societies which had reached the necessary industrialised stage in development were ripe for revolution. This is basic Chinese history, which any first year student should know, about the massive doctrinal differences and conflicts which occurred in the Chinese Communist Party before the Long March and which led, eventually to the great split between the Soviet Union and Communist China after the denounciation of Stalin by Kruschev. Mao's theories on warfare were centred around the use of mass, infantry armies, rather than maneauvre warfare in the classic sense as utilised by the Soviet Army, particularly after WWII. It is this basis which provides the basic differences between Soviet era and PLA doctrines. While the PLA has modified their doctrine in the light of the failures of the Sino-Vietnamese war of 1979 and the lessons provided by the Gulf Wars, it is still heavily influenced by its roots. Claiming they are merely a clone of the Soviets shows how shallow your analysis is IMHO.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Time to get back on topic folks.

Feel free however to post a sep thread on comparing soviet/sino doctrine differences.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
When they purchased the Leopards, one of the major arguments against the purchase of the M60, which was Treasury's preferred option, was that buying the required number for 1 Armd Regt. and School of Armour was not possible, unless the M60s were purchased in two lots (and would, as a consequence be very different because of the US Army's procurement plans). So, they bought a joblot of Leopards, all in one go ).

The Leopard 1s were purchased in 2 batches by Australia!
An initial order was made and then, I think about 18 months later, it was decided to order a second, smaller batch.
 

drjn

New Member
In regards to the purchase of the M1A2 tanks, if I remember correctly was there not also going to be some 40 additional tanks placed in storage in Darwin for the US Army that could be used by the Australian army? I thought that was part of the original agreement.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I said PLA is a poorer less sophisticated clone... which in fact they are.


Why didn't Australia go for some Leo 2s?

Politics and cost. The present Australian government has long held that we are best seen as the "White Ghurkas" of the Pacific - imperial sepoys to which ever empire we have decided to hitch our wagon to. Therefore, it is better to have the same equipment as our "great and powerful friends" than to necessarily seek the best equipment for the particular role. Often, we will hold "competitions" to determine which is the best but invariably the ultimate decision is a political one. In the 1960s, we ended up with the M60 GPMG, after the FN-MAG58 beat it hands down in competition. 30 years later, the FN-MAG58, replaced the M60 GPMG in Australian service. :rolleyes:

Today, we find ourselves with the M1a1 AIM. While a fine tank, in itself, it is not the appropriate one for our needs - nor is the Leopard 2. Both are excellent MBTs however both are heavyweights and our national and regional infrastructure cannot support the movement of these vehicles. Our roads have insufficient, strong enough bridges, which can carry the weight of both the MBT and its transporter. Many of our bridges are not high enough, to allow the MBT on the back of a transporter to pass under. Our main north-south railway, which was built, ostensibly because of defence needs (after nearly 80 years of shilly-shallying and a world war when it would have been particularly useful), cannot carry the MBT because of bridge and axle loading concerns. Most other railways have tunnel and bridge loading problems, transporting the vehicle. Only three ports have cranes heavy enough to allow the loading/unloading of these vehicles from ships and only two ports have wharves strong enough to allow ro-ro loading/unloading. Conditions within the region - Oceania and the SW Pacific, are even worse, with few roads or wharves able to take these vehicles. We will have insufficient air transport capabilities to move more than a troop of vehicles at one time and few runways will be strong enough to take the aircraft.

Finally, there are few MBTs in our region. Those that are here, are ostensibly owned by our major allies there. Therefore there are few targets that need a 120mm round and few threats that cannot be faced by a lighter vehicle.

The sole reason we are buying them is because there are no more medium tanks being produced, outside of Eastern European designs, which come with their own raft of problems associated with them. Further, tactically, because the M1a1 AIM utilise a gas turbine engine, their POL requirements will skew any operation in which they are used, particularly at a time when the Army has run down its logistics.

All-in-all, a poor choice IMHO. They will be parade-ground queens for the most part, I believe. They are intended to provide at best, training of Australia's armoured regiment (although the numbers will be insuficient for that, according to the information I have) so it can then be moved overseas en masse to be America's Ghurkas.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Politics and cost. The present Australian government has long held that we are best seen as the "White Ghurkas" of the Pacific - imperial sepoys to which ever empire we have decided to hitch our wagon to. Therefore, it is better to have the same equipment as our "great and powerful friends" than to necessarily seek the best equipment for the particular role...

All-in-all, a poor choice IMHO. They will be parade-ground queens for the most part, I believe. They are intended to provide at best, training of Australia's armoured regiment (although the numbers will be insuficient for that, according to the information I have) so it can then be moved overseas en masse to be America's Ghurkas.
I don't necessarily agree with the policy but if that is indeed the Australian Government's plan it surely justifies the selection and purchase of the M1A1. If Oz is likely to deploy an armoured formation to fight alongside US forces it seems to me that it makes sense to have the same equipment.

I don't pretend to have the expertise or knowledge to add to the debate about the merits (for Australia) of a MBT like the M1A1 over a smaller armoured vehicle but I do remember (as others have mentioned) that Australian Centurian tanks performed well in Vietnam.
 

miket

New Member
Politics and cost. The present Australian government has long held that we are best seen as the "White Ghurkas" of the Pacific - imperial sepoys to which ever empire we have decided to hitch our wagon to. Therefore, it is better to have the same equipment as our "great and powerful friends" than to necessarily seek the best equipment for the particular role. Often, we will hold "competitions" to determine which is the best but invariably the ultimate decision is a political one. In the 1960s, we ended up with the M60 GPMG, after the FN-MAG58 beat it hands down in competition. 30 years later, the FN-MAG58, replaced the M60 GPMG in Australian service. :rolleyes:

Today, we find ourselves with the M1a1 AIM. While a fine tank, in itself, it is not the appropriate one for our needs - nor is the Leopard 2. Both are excellent MBTs however both are heavyweights and our national and regional infrastructure cannot support the movement of these vehicles. Our roads have insufficient, strong enough bridges, which can carry the weight of both the MBT and its transporter. Many of our bridges are not high enough, to allow the MBT on the back of a transporter to pass under. Our main north-south railway, which was built, ostensibly because of defence needs (after nearly 80 years of shilly-shallying and a world war when it would have been particularly useful), cannot carry the MBT because of bridge and axle loading concerns. Most other railways have tunnel and bridge loading problems, transporting the vehicle. Only three ports have cranes heavy enough to allow the loading/unloading of these vehicles from ships and only two ports have wharves strong enough to allow ro-ro loading/unloading. Conditions within the region - Oceania and the SW Pacific, are even worse, with few roads or wharves able to take these vehicles. We will have insufficient air transport capabilities to move more than a troop of vehicles at one time and few runways will be strong enough to take the aircraft.

Finally, there are few MBTs in our region. Those that are here, are ostensibly owned by our major allies there. Therefore there are few targets that need a 120mm round and few threats that cannot be faced by a lighter vehicle.

The sole reason we are buying them is because there are no more medium tanks being produced, outside of Eastern European designs, which come with their own raft of problems associated with them. Further, tactically, because the M1a1 AIM utilise a gas turbine engine, their POL requirements will skew any operation in which they are used, particularly at a time when the Army has run down its logistics.

All-in-all, a poor choice IMHO. They will be parade-ground queens for the most part, I believe. They are intended to provide at best, training of Australia's armoured regiment (although the numbers will be insuficient for that, according to the information I have) so it can then be moved overseas en masse to be America's Ghurkas.
If the heavy tanks are not suitable because of the problems quoted above and there are no suitable medium tanks?. Why could'nt Aussie-NZ defence forces asked the political masters for the Swedish CV 90 series IFV,105,120,or something similar. Maybe we might have something better for regional defence more easily transportable.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't necessarily agree with the policy but if that is indeed the Australian Government's plan it surely justifies the selection and purchase of the M1A1. If Oz is likely to deploy an armoured formation to fight alongside US forces it seems to me that it makes sense to have the same equipment.
Depends if you see our defence forces' role as being one of defending Australia and its interests or being sacrificed, as would be our interests, in favour of defending America and its interests. Don't make the mistake of assuming that Australia's interests are identical to America's. They aren't.

I don't pretend to have the expertise or knowledge to add to the debate about the merits (for Australia) of a MBT like the M1A1 over a smaller armoured vehicle but I do remember (as others have mentioned) that Australian Centurian tanks performed well in Vietnam.
Centurions are ~20 tons lighter than the M1a1. Many of the mobility concerns wouldn't occur with a vehicle that weight.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Depends if you see our defence forces' role as being one of defending Australia and its interests or being sacrificed, as would be our interests, in favour of defending America and its interests. Don't make the mistake of assuming that Australia's interests are identical to America's. They aren't.
As I said I don't necessarily agree with government policy in this regard. There have been a number of deployments of the ADF with which I have strongly disagreed. However, I do want to see our forces supported with the best possible equipment whenever and wherever they are deployed whether I agree with that deployment or not.
Centurions are ~20 tons lighter than the M1a1. Many of the mobility concerns wouldn't occur with a vehicle that weight.
Fair point. Demonstrates what I said about my lack of expertise in this area!
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Depends if you see our defence forces' role as being one of defending Australia and its interests or being sacrificed, as would be our interests, in favour of defending America and its interests. Don't make the mistake of assuming that Australia's interests are identical to America's. They aren't.
Please, let us have every nation defend their own interests... that way we can scrap our military and save us half a trillion dollars a year protecting your butt from PROC ambitions. The day you spend enough to protect yourself the day you can whine legitametly. We save you so many defense dollars we are practically financing your Dole. Americans are the one's who pay for waving the flag of freedom more than any other... is it too much to ask for democratic nations to help out? Or you may just decide to go the way of the Kiwi. :unknown

Centurions are ~20 tons lighter than the M1a1. Many of the mobility concerns wouldn't occur with a vehicle that weight.
Wouldn't a Type-99 fit better into your force plan... if we go with your thoughts we will be calling you comrade anyways. You might as well prepare for the surrender by getting compatible equipment. :china
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Settle Down Folks.

Lets keep the idealogical and political differences for PM's.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #94
Centurions are ~20 tons lighter than the M1a1. Many of the mobility concerns wouldn't occur with a vehicle that weight.
Some are I agree. The Australian Centurions were up-armoured prior to deployment to Vietnam and weighed in at around 51 tons.

(http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_centurion.html)

With the improvements in track technology AND the wider track of the M1A1, I feel pretty confident that the M1 would have a similar ground pressure to that of the Vietnam era Centurion. With it's increased power to weight ratio, (23 horsepower per ton compared to 14 horsepower per ton) and greatly improved suspension, I think it pretty certain that the overall
off road mobility of the M1A1, is just a bit better than the Centurion... :)

As to the parade ground Queen comment, there's hardly a need to argue. well we'll definitely see won't we? It's not exactly the same situation as the F-22/F-35/F/A-18E/F argument is it?

Simply waiting 6-12 months will see the Abrams reach IOC and closing in on it's full operating capability.

My bet is there will be no observable difference to now. We did buy 90 odd Leopard gun tanks, but they sure as hell weren't all assigned to 1 Armoured Regt. A good many of them were kept in reserve...
 

drjn

New Member
Centurions were considered an MBT for their time. Just becuase it is 20 tons lighter than a M1A1 does not mean that it is a light or medium tank.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Tactical mobility is not a problem with the M1a1 AIM. It is strategic mobility. How it is moved to the battlefield, not how it moves around it. It is this strategic mobility concern which worries me and why I made my comment about it being a "parade ground queen". There is little value in having another Koala tank.

Its interesting that the Canadians have taken their Leopard 1s to Afghanistan and there they have performed extremely well, by all accounts. Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rab8cxw1YfM
 
A

Aussie Digger

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #97
Tactical mobility is not a problem with the M1a1 AIM. It is strategic mobility. How it is moved to the battlefield, not how it moves around it. It is this strategic mobility concern which worries me and why I made my comment about it being a "parade ground queen". There is little value in having another Koala tank.

Its interesting that the Canadians have taken their Leopard 1s to Afghanistan and there they have performed extremely well, by all accounts. Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rab8cxw1YfM
So I have heard. Good on em. I was ALWAYS a big fan of the Leo and those up-graded Canadian Leo's look as gucci as hell...

As to their actual deployment though, they had to airlift the Leo C1's there (due to it being land locked) and even a C-17 can only carry 1 Leo at a time, same as an M1A1. AS such if we wanted to deploy M1A1's to "The Ghan" or some other land locked Country, we'd have no choice either. We'd simply have to organise the lift from the USAF.

To any Country that is NOT land locked, the LPD's and the future "sea lift" ship, should provide sufficient strategic mobility. I hardly think we're likely to deploy ANYWHERE where we need M1A1's in the first week or so of the campaign...
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Tactical mobility is not a problem with the M1a1 AIM. It is strategic mobility. How it is moved to the battlefield, not how it moves around it. It is this strategic mobility concern which worries me and why I made my comment about it being a "parade ground queen". There is little value in having another Koala tank.

Its interesting that the Canadians have taken their Leopard 1s to Afghanistan and there they have performed extremely well, by all accounts. Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rab8cxw1YfM

And according to AGRA at The Fifth Column forum, the upgraded Canadian Leos actually have better side armour than an M1A1.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Really?
I mean a normal Leo I is able to withstand 30mm frontally and..uuhm...maybe hot water on the sides. ;)
You would need a lot more armor to bring it on par (If we are talking about the frontal sides).
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And according to AGRA at The Fifth Column forum, the upgraded Canadian Leos actually have better side armour than an M1A1.
And who is the reliabe source for this information. Please specify the thickness levels and what the armor consists of that makes you come to that conclusion.
 
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