How to properly exit Iraq?

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FutureTank

Banned Member
The US military can not reach desired policy goal through use of troops alone at this stage, even if required numbers of troops were to become available. In any case, I think the operation is unsustainable beyond the next election in US.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
The US military can not reach desired policy goal through use of troops alone at this stage, even if required numbers of troops were to become available. In any case, I think the operation is unsustainable beyond the next election in US.
Chuck Hagel's calling for a draft... it might not be a bad idea to have every citizen serve two years. These kids might learn some discipline.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Chuck Hagel's calling for a draft... it might not be a bad idea to have every citizen serve two years. These kids might learn some discipline.
Sorry for the one-liner, but do you think there is a real chance of the draft being introduced to sustain operations in Iraq?
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Sorry for the one-liner, but do you think there is a real chance of the draft being introduced to sustain operations in Iraq?
Definetly not for Iraq... DPRK/Iran/Syria are more of what I had in mind. GWOT is far from over and the Army is in SAD shape. We have to do something.
 

DragonKing786

New Member
Sorry for the one-liner, but do you think there is a real chance of the draft being introduced to sustain operations in Iraq?
Well hopefully not for Iraq or Afghan., if incase war with IRAN., YUP you can count on the draft., their is no way with it's current level they can handle the 12 Million man armed Militia "which the US army even knows"., and plus attacking Syria is another thing., which US will have to help Israel out, to finish them off quickly so they dont cause economic damage to the North and East., like in the summer war North was hurt really "bad" after a friend told me.

But Don't Worry Just Pray They Don't Launch Another War., US willn't be able to handle the strain with its current troop level.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Definetly not for Iraq... DPRK/Iran/Syria are more of what I had in mind. GWOT is far from over and the Army is in SAD shape. We have to do something.
DPRK is a UN 'baby'....

Iran is going to go away soon by itself if US just has enough patience

Syria is isolated as it is. Did I see news of Saudis conducting informal talks with Israel and Egypt berating Iran? Me thinkg Hamas has become too 'popular' for Saudi's liking.

I may be very wrong, but the US public will not accept the draft under current political environment, or military one for that matter. What WILL happen is that US will claim its NATO allies are not shouldering their burden in Afghanistan as expected (which they are not).

There is a solution. For want of a better way, I emailed the Vice President's office, but no reply yet. It's really a CIA job, but how does one contact that mob?! :confused:
 

Big-E

Banned Member
DPRK is a UN 'baby'....
:eek:nfloorl:

Iran is going to go away soon by itself if US just has enough patience
You know we don't and Israel has even less with a cook preaching imminent destruction.


Syria is isolated as it is. Did I see news of Saudis conducting informal talks with Israel and Egypt berating Iran? Me thinkg Hamas has become too 'popular' for Saudi's liking.
Me thinks Saudi hates Iran and doesn't wan't them to get nukes...

I may be very wrong, but the US public will not accept the draft under current political environment, or military one for that matter. What WILL happen is that US will claim its NATO allies are not shouldering their burden in Afghanistan as expected (which they are not).
I know they won't accept it unless someone gets hit with a WMD.


There is a solution. For want of a better way, I emailed the Vice President's office, but no reply yet. It's really a CIA job, but how does one contact that mob?! :confused:
Why waste the postage... unless your letter has John Howard's stationary on it Cheney will throw it in the trash.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
:eek:nfloorl:

You know we don't and Israel has even less with a cook preaching imminent destruction.

Me thinks Saudi hates Iran and doesn't wan't them to get nukes...

I know they won't accept it unless someone gets hit with a WMD.

Why waste the postage... unless your letter has John Howard's stationary on it Cheney will throw it in the trash.
Yeh, I know, but the Armastice was with the UN

Is anyone so naive as to think Olmert let his words slip about Israel having nuclear weapons? ;)

Saudis probably paid for part of Pakistani nuclear research, and it is as much a message to India as it is to Iran

Excuse me, but what do you call four jumbo jets crashing into major buildings!!!:confused: In the 1940s this would have brought the draft within an hour if the Germans or Japanese did it, but Taliban in Afghanistan didn't look like an enemy worthy of a superpower and the need for draft. Another mistake.

I know how Australian government works. I would not get anywhere, particularly since my strategy is for US not Australia. I'm just sorry that more people will die just because CIA is too 'big' to listen to outside advice.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
Saudis probably paid for part of Pakistani nuclear research, and it is as much a message to India as it is to Iran
Probably not a good idea to speculate about this here.


Excuse me, but what do you call four jumbo jets crashing into major buildings!!!:confused: In the 1940s this would have brought the draft within an hour if the Germans or Japanese did it, but Taliban in Afghanistan didn't look like an enemy worthy of a superpower and the need for draft. Another mistake.
If the invasion of Afghanistan called for a draft it would have happened. It simply wasn't necessary at the time.

I know how Australian government works. I would not get anywhere, particularly since my strategy is for US not Australia. I'm just sorry that more people will die just because CIA is too 'big' to listen to outside advice.
I can't believe you actually e-mailed it... do you have nothing better to do?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Excuse me, but what do you call four jumbo jets crashing into major buildings!!! In the 1940s this would have brought the draft within an hour if the Germans or Japanese did it, but Taliban in Afghanistan didn't look like an enemy worthy of a superpower and the need for draft. Another mistake.
according to Baer (the ex resident CIA CO in afghanistan), it was only because the US was unable to clearly establish who had sanctioned the attack. He makes it very clear that the initial US reaction was that if they could without any ISR impediment identify a complicit country, that they were willing to drop a nuke on that country. They were highly motivated.

I know how Australian government works. I would not get anywhere, particularly since my strategy is for US not Australia. I'm just sorry that more people will die just because CIA is too 'big' to listen to outside advice.
well, if you are indicating that you've made some suggestions to the US Govt then I'm assuming that you're probably well aware that it would have come back to Oz anyway.

congratulations, you've just put yourself on the australian, american and NATO "watch list" :rolleyes:
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
congratulations, you've just put yourself on the australian, american and NATO "watch list" :rolleyes:
:D I have been on the watch list FAR longer then that. I think it started in 96 when I was interrogated by a US captain over at Mosman because I suggested gettign civilians to test Army's new wargaming toy.

That turned out to be a good idea because they forgot to include elevation parameter :cool:
 

Pinky

New Member
First do what nobody seems to have done at the top, study in depth as many historical examples of areas made up of several ethnicities already engaged in a bloodbath while occupied by a foriegn (and at least somewhat disliked) power as possible. Then read Liddel Hart's Strategy. And maybe Keegan's A History of Warfare. Then meet with army, corps, and divisional commanders to get their realistic perspective of what is happening in Iraq, INSISTING to, for instance, the divisional commanders that they must speak with total candor, holding nothing back out of respect for the chain of command. Then form a rational grand strategy for the war on terror and a rational strategy for Iraq.

It's a fairly common take on things, that areas that are ripe for ethnic violence are typically prevented from doing so by an occupying empire. The Balkans, for instance, while dominated by the Turks, the Austrians, and the Soviets. (And as soon as that region was not dominated by a foriegn power, the violence just started up again) First of all, would you agree that this is true and secondly would you say that the "rule with an iron fist" method is the method these empires took, and is it the only method to quiet a region that would otherwise engage in destructive ethnic violence? (hopefully it is not), And if so, Americans don't fancy being the type to provide an "iron fist," so what follws from there?


Personally, if I had been president after 9/11, my first priority would be to do the grand strategic equivalent of achieving full freedom of action. Do everything possible to become energy-independent. (Placing worries about where the money paid for oil ends up aside) The US need for oil compels it to act in certain specific ways. The equivalent of a direct, frontal attack. Predictable and unalterable. It's the equivalent of not being able to maneuver. Making policy on a no-need-for-oil basis would open up all kinds of other possibilities... the US need not act on any of these, but at least it opens up the possibility with posing the enemy with a dillemma as opposed to letting them act on certain unalterable facts.


As for war with Iran.... somebody tell me how overly optimistic I am. (I'm using WW2 analogies because this is an area of military history I'm fairly familiar with) Wouldn't the US enjoy a combination of the operational superiority the Germans had over the Soviets when they could cut up Soviet formations even at 8:1 odds, combined with the air superiority enjoyed by the Allies during the invasion of France, where it took longer for German formations to get from the French border to Normandy than it did to get from the Eastern Front to the border of France due to all the Fighter-Bombers doing prescision attacks on traveling units and transportation infrastructure? I mean, wouldn't supplies for an invading Iranian army be limited to what they could carry in on their backs? Would there BE such things as roads or railways in Iran two weeks after a declaration of war or sneak attack? Wouldn't the US pull together whatever mechanized forces they had in the theatre of war and cut up the Iranian formations in conjunction with air power? I just can't see how Iran could keep their forces concentrated if supplying them becomes impossible and keeping them concentrated would create good targets for the air force. I'm fairly well-read on military history and strategy for a layman, but that's about it. I'd be interested in anyone's realistic informed take on how a US-Iran war started by Iran would go.
 
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FutureTank

Banned Member
First do what nobody seems to have done at the top, study in depth as many historical examples of areas made up of several ethnicities already engaged in a bloodbath while occupied by a foreign (and at least somewhat disliked) power as possible. ..
Done

Then read Liddel Hart's Strategy. And maybe Keegan's A History of Warfare. ..
Pointless

Then meet with army, corps, and divisional commanders to get their realistic perspective of what is happening in Iraq, INSISTING to, for instance, the divisional commanders that they must speak with total candor, holding nothing back out of respect for the chain of command. ..
Pointless

Then form a rational grand strategy for the war on terror and a rational strategy for Iraq..
The "War on Terror" and current operations in Iraq have only one thing in common...the region of operations.
I have formed THE rational strategy for Iraq, which is the ONLY rational strategy, and which was not used in 2003 by the USA.
Forming a rational strategy for "War on Terror" is not so easy considering the enemy is irrational by 'Western' standards.
In order to form rational strategies the analyst must first be honest to oneself and one's clients. To do so is to accept that the war is with Islam in general, and particular sections of Islamic society in particular. Based on this is is easily realised that the 'war' can not be won militarily.

Americans don't fancy being the type to provide an "iron fist," so what follows from there?.
I fear you misunderstand how societies in general, and the Islamic society in particular work. The 'iron fist' is the only social model known, accepted and desired in the Islamic world. There is one other option, but since it forms the core of my solution idea, I am not going to reveal it here (in the hope that someone in the powers-that-be may actually decide to listen).

Personally, if I had been president after 9/11, my first priority would be to...become energy-independent.
Dear Pinky, what is the greatest source of grievance in the Islamic world against the 'West'? Imagine if the demand for oil was dramatically and rapidly reduced?

As for war with Iran.... somebody tell me how overly optimistic I am.
I'm fairly well-read on military history and strategy for a layman, but that's about it. I'd be interested in anyone's realistic informed take on how a US-Iran war started by Iran would go.
Unfortunately I need to inform you that being 'well read' in WW2 history may not enable you to apply this knowledge to every strategic situation.
Iran is a nation of 70 million people. Even if the US was able to destroy its conventional military structure, it could not destroy all combat capability. What this would produce is a largely radicalised population of millions. Not only that, but there is one thing to surely unite enemies, and that is a common enemy which the US would become to both Sunni and Shi'a followers.
Would US be able to stop this army of 'bugs' advancing into the Gulf states? I fear that it would be well and truly beyond not just US, but NATO also.

War with Iran is NOT an option, particularly since it would have severe impact on US economy.

Quite simply the situations with "War on Terror" and situation in Iraq are but a part of a very long historical continuity which gradually moved out of the 'Western' focus with rise and fall of the Ottoman Empire, but begun to re-emerge almost immediately with its dissolution in 1918.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
War with Iran is NOT an option, particularly since it would have severe impact on US economy.
Come on FT... it was you pushing that report by Stern about declining Iranian oil exports. If Iran losses that clout they have little that can effect the US economy. Not that they have anything that directly hurts us anyways. Any games they play with oil will be absorbed by Japan. Besides paying a few extra cents for gas and Toyotas we will be fine.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Come on FT... it was you pushing that report by Stern about declining Iranian oil exports. If Iran losses that clout they have little that can effect the US economy. Not that they have anything that directly hurts us anyways. Any games they play with oil will be absorbed by Japan. Besides paying a few extra cents for gas and Toyotas we will be fine.
I wasn't thinking of direct effect on US economy. Indirectly it would further affect national debt, and siphon money away from domestic investment (like jobs and healthcare).
I was only pointing out that US doesn't have to fight EVERY nation that want's to fight it.
Its like that neighbourhood dog that always barks when someone walks by...forgetting its on a chain :)

I think "War on Terror" is challenge enough for the next 3-4 generations of Americans as it is without making it worse.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
I was only pointing out that US doesn't have to fight EVERY nation that want's to fight it.
Its like that neighbourhood dog that always barks when someone walks by...forgetting its on a chain :)
That's what all Super Powers do... if anyone challenges your authority you make an example of them. Case in point Saddam... he's going to be hanged. Whatever the outcome in Iraq he's still gone and Khaddafi gave up his nuclear program, we still get our bases and we still get our oil. It might have been nice to get a democratic Iraq but I certainly never expected it.
 

rickshaw

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I see the following occuring - "Iraqisation" - which will allow the US to exit Iraq "with dignity". After the US and the rest of the coalition have departed, Iraq will slowly dissolve into civil war, breaking up into the three major factions. Syria will attempt to move into the Sunni centre, Iran the Sh'ia south. Kurdistan will be created, against Turkish wishes but with US support. The US will attempt to keep Iran out of the south and may succeed, if they can build up the Sh'ia militia. The Sunnis will ally with Syria. Iraq will go through a period of instability, like Lebanon has, until a new ruling coalition can be created or a new leader emerges. It will become the "weak man" of the region, replacing Lebanon. The Jihadis will be tolerated for a while until people wake up to the instability and emnity that they promote.
 
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