How to properly exit Iraq?

[eckherl]

Why should the europeans deal with it?
And how?
It is not as if our think tanks, governments, population, etc. knew what to do in this big mess.

Maybe some sort of Mad Max. Close the borders of Iraq and see what happens. Three go in and one is coming out of it.

Just the same I give it two years and we will be gone, Waylander - the Europeans most certainly did know what to do, you stayed out of it which was the smart thing to do. Give me one Middle Eastern country that is a true democracy besides Israel, no one will be able to push that kind of influence on any country over there, no one. This will go down as a military blunder for us, but it needs to go out as a warning to any other country that supports terrorist groups that are responsible for harming my country in any way shape or form, scratch two regimes, who will be next.

 

[FutureTank]

Give me one Middle Eastern country that is a true democracy besides Israel, no one will be able to push that kind of influence on any country over there, no one.

But there isn't one, and wasn't that the intent behind Vietnam? US policy there was based on creating a bulwark of democracy, but there was not one democratic country in Asia through the 60s and 70s. Even the democracies that are there now are not carbon copies of the US model.

This will go down as a military blunder for us, but it needs to go out as a warning to any other country that supports terrorist groups that are responsible for harming my country in any way shape or form, scratch two regimes, who will be next.

With all due respect, what US considers as terrorism is considered just another way of fighting not only by the combatants, but the very culture they come from.
Nor do the 'regimes' you mention nave the same meaning they do to US. Change of 'regimes' is part of falk history in Islamic culture.

 

[rickshaw]

Well, I did say 'expect'. I happen to believe in social engineering, but it doesn't mean the discipline exists now, so what we get instead is..."garbage in, garbage out" as you eloquently put it
However I do think that the Australian electorate is better informed then the US electorate, possibly because of the obigatory voting requirement.


I would not judge American education system so harshly.
Part of the problem (in my perception) is the inability by some stratae of the American society to relate Federal policies to local issues.

Yes, there does appear to be that problem at the heart of it, when I reflect upon it. Sometimes I think the USA is made up of 51 seperate countries that just happen to fly in formation.

Certainly not if they are going to be locked up

Well we could got through the whole Watergate thing again (considering the death of Gerry Ford) but I'd prefer they were just done and released, afterall, they'd make fascinating reading, just as the originals did.

There is a very strong discouragement of discussing politics in the forum

How can one discuss strategy without touching upon politics?

Yes, but actually this was a policy that predates GW's election.

Yes but it was the neo-Cons who decided to act upon it.

I suppose anything is possible, but I think the process of transforming Iraq into a democratic society would take far longer then the 3-4 generations global transformations take in the 'West'.

I think it would now. I don't think it would have back in the immediate post-war World. Problem is, they never got the chance and now the Islamist radicals with their poisonious influence are out and about ruining things for everybody.

There is only one solution/strategy, but I am unwilling to discuss it here because:
a) I am hoping to offer it in exchange for a position in my current job-seeking efforts, and
b) if someone else thinks of it, I would not want their efforts to fail on my account.

Mmmm, I have to warn you, proposing that they turn Iraq into a glass ashtray won't get you a job, except perhaps at Jihadwatch. :lol:

 

[FutureTank]

Mmmm, I have to warn you, proposing that they turn Iraq into a glass ashtray won't get you a job, except perhaps at Jihadwatch. :lol:

I like watching medical shows, and generally quite enjoy medical science. The thing about medicine is that it always seeks a more refined and elegant approach to treatment, to a point where the patient's condition is not theatened and no further pain is inflicted through the treatment.

Use of nuclear weapons I think is something akin to the procedure of amputation practiced during the Napoleonic Wars - a practice so brutish it was likely to do more injury then good.
I on the other hand prefer to liken my approach to the least intrusive method, based on the very recent research in medicine through use of DNA manipulation

 

[eckherl]

But there isn't one, and wasn't that the intent behind Vietnam? US policy there was based on creating a bulwark of democracy, but there was not one democratic country in Asia through the 60s and 70s. Even the democracies that are there now are not carbon copies of the US model.



With all due respect, what US considers as terrorism is considered just another way of fighting not only by the combatants, but the very culture they come from.
Nor do the 'regimes' you mention nave the same meaning they do to US. Change of 'regimes' is part of falk history in Islamic culture.

Are you saying that my country is repeating history but failing again.
If changing regimes is part of their culture, then that possibility is quite high if this country is attacked again and if we can finger the country that has a connection to it, this is not the Vietnam generation that you are witnessing, true - we do not like the war and we can finger President Bush as the dirty bird who wasn`t truthful, but how many attacks has this country suffered with in our borders after 911, you may think that I have gone loco but it is my opinion that we purposely went over there so that this war wasn`t fought here in my country, we needed time to get our act together.

 

[rickshaw]

I like watching medical shows, and generally quite enjoy medical science. The thing about medicine is that it always seeks a more refined and elegant approach to treatment, to a point where the patient's condition is not theatened and no further pain is inflicted through the treatment.

Obviously you've never watched an Orthopedics surgeon at work. Their tools look more like something Tomas Torquamanda would have been quite happily at home with. Pain is all part of the medical process and while it seeks to minimise it, medicos themselves don't shy away from inflicting it, if its a necessary part of the treatment.

Use of nuclear weapons I think is something akin to the procedure of amputation practiced during the Napoleonic Wars - a practice so brutish it was likely to do more injury then good.
I on the other hand prefer to liken my approach to the least intrusive method, based on the very recent research in medicine through use of DNA manipulation

I fear that the time for such an approach is passed. The Coalition missed it in the opening days and perhaps for the first 12 months. After that, the insurgents were organised and the Jihadis starting to arrive. The Governor-General's address to the LW Conference in 2005 summed up where they'd gone wrong to that point. After that, it more closely resembled 1965 in Aden, than anything else IMO, and the only solution there was withdrawal. The only solution now, in Iraq is withdrawal. The timing and the process is all that is in question IMO.

 

[FutureTank]

Are you saying that my country is repeating history but failing again.

Consider a simpler scenario.
In a classroom, the bully is used to being punished, but does not change his/her behaviour regardless of the punishment meeted out by the teacher.
To really change the bully's behaviour one needs to understand WHY this behaviour is a part of the personality, and go to the core root of the behaviour rather then just punishing the individual manifistations of it.
Phsychology has conclusively shown that buly behaviour does not disappear from personality as the individuals progresses through stages of life, but only leads to more punishment if not treated, i.e. criminal prosecution, incarceration, and eventually and often, early demise.

 

[FutureTank]

Obviously you've never watched an Orthopedics surgeon at work. Their tools look more like something Tomas Torquamanda would have been quite happily at home with. Pain is all part of the medical process and while it seeks to minimise it, medicos themselves don't shy away from inflicting it, if its a necessary part of the treatment.

Blissfully I had an excellent anestethist when one worked on me
My only pain after the operation was in the 'but' (not the place of injury) created by an overzealous nurse who was insisting I remain on the morphene although all I was expereincing is the usual feeling when metal parts are inserted to reconnect bone fragmets.

I fear that the time for such an approach is passed. The Coalition missed it in the opening days and perhaps for the first 12 months. After that, the insurgents were organised and the Jihadis starting to arrive. The Governor-General's address to the LW Conference in 2005 summed up where they'd gone wrong to that point. After that, it more closely resembled 1965 in Aden, than anything else IMO, and the only solution there was withdrawal. The only solution now, in Iraq is withdrawal. The timing and the process is all that is in question IMO.

No, I disagree. To execute the strategy I have in mind is not too late, and in fact it is still executable even in an environment more violent then one that exists now. Its a very clever strategy based on assymetric THINKING tactics

 

[eckherl]

Consider a simpler scenario.
In a classroom, the bully is used to being punished, but does not change his/her behaviour regardless of the punishment meeted out by the teacher.
To really change the bully's behaviour one needs to understand WHY this behaviour is a part of the personality, and go to the core root of the behaviour rather then just punishing the individual manifistations of it.
Phsychology has conclusively shown that buly behaviour does not disappear from personality as the individuals progresses through stages of life, but only leads to more punishment if not treated, i.e. criminal prosecution, incarceration, and eventually and often, early demise.

But they will always have a excuse for hating us, it`s called Israel, because of our support this will be there reason for their Jihad against us,

 

[FutureTank]

But they will always have a excuse for hating us, it`s called Israel, because of our support this will be there reason for their Jihad against us,

Its not Israel. It goes much deeper then that.

 

[eckherl]

Its not Israel. It goes much deeper then that.

You have my attention on that one, if you would like to give me your opinion on this someday, I would really like to know why.

 

[FutureTank]

The Western and Islamic cultures are different at their core.

European expansion was motivated largely by wealth generation. Religion came as a necessary justification of superiority.

Islamic expansion is the promotion of their religious superiority as such.

For this reason Islam generally views Europeans as believers, but insincere believers (and of course most these days are nothing like the Christians of five centuries ago).

Israel is hated for a different reason. Judaism has enabled the impossible, and restored territory to non-Muslims which had been previously conquered by Islam. The only other place where this had happened is in India and Soviet Union.

Islam sees any land once captured as its own forever. All other territory is to be conquered in the name of Islam in future.

That is all there is.

 

[rickshaw]

The Western and Islamic cultures are different at their core.

European expansion was motivated largely by wealth generation. Religion came as a necessary justification of superiority.

Islamic expansion is the promotion of their religious superiority as such.

For this reason Islam generally views Europeans as believers, but insincere believers (and of course most these days are nothing like the Christians of five centuries ago).

Israel is hated for a different reason. Judaism has enabled the impossible, and restored territory to non-Muslims which had been previously conquered by Islam. The only other place where this had happened is in India and Soviet Union.

Islam sees any land once captured as its own forever. All other territory is to be conquered in the name of Islam in future.

That is all there is.

Trifle simplistic, don't you think? BTW, you forgot to mention East Timor, something Usama bin Laden has made particular reference to.

However, I'd suggest that while your first paragraph was spot on, you wandered off into Islamist territory a bit quickly (pun intended). Islam, has no such beliefs, Islamism though, does. Islamism is though, filled with many contradictory and extremist beliefs of that nature, unfortunately.

 

[eckherl]

The Western and Islamic cultures are different at their core.

European expansion was motivated largely by wealth generation. Religion came as a necessary justification of superiority.

Islamic expansion is the promotion of their religious superiority as such.

For this reason Islam generally views Europeans as believers, but insincere believers (and of course most these days are nothing like the Christians of five centuries ago).

Israel is hated for a different reason. Judaism has enabled the impossible, and restored territory to non-Muslims which had been previously conquered by Islam. The only other place where this had happened is in India and Soviet Union.

Islam sees any land once captured as its own forever. All other territory is to be conquered in the name of Islam in future.

That is all there is.

So I guess we will never have peace in Israel because of this, because of the radical ones who want to spin the Koran into their own way of thinking. Why do they not go after Russia more than what they are doing at the present time, could it be because we are viewed as conquerors that must be driven out at all costs, after we leave they will concentrate on destroying Israel and may go into Russia to stir things up.

 

[FutureTank]

Trifle simplistic, don't you think? BTW, you forgot to mention East Timor, something Usama bin Laden has made particular reference to.

However, I'd suggest that while your first paragraph was spot on, you wandered off into Islamist territory a bit quickly (pun intended). Islam, has no such beliefs, Islamism though, does. Islamism is though, filled with many contradictory and extremist beliefs of that nature, unfortunately.

I tried posting longer pieces before, and found there is unwillingness to respond to them, so I keep it simple now. Its good practice in case I actualy do get a job

People, irrespective of their beliefs, are only able to reach the level of understanding their society and level of education privides them opportunity to do. This is as true for Christian world as it is for the Islamic world.

The difference of Islam and Isamism are only so sharply distinguished in the 'West' (because of the need to identify 'the enemy'), not in the Islamic countries. (I suspect you know this RICKSHAW)

 

[rickshaw]

I tried posting longer pieces before, and found there is unwillingness to respond to them, so I keep it simple now. Its good practice in case I actualy do get a job

Oh, I prefer longer responses, so be assured, I'll answer your's if you post them. Ministers are the ones who prefer simplistic stuff, so stay away from them and you'll be pretty safe IMHO.

People, irrespective of their beliefs, are only able to reach the level of understanding their society and level of education privides them opportunity to do. This is as true for Christian world as it is for the Islamic world.

True. However, not all the Christian or Islamic world are constrained by that either. There will always be just as much people who fear the "other", those who reach out and seek to understand it. Those are the ones who tend to be the intellectual elites.

The difference of Islam and Isamism are only so sharply distinguished in the 'West' (because of the need to identify 'the enemy'), not in the Islamic countries. (I suspect you know this RICKSHAW)

Of course it isn't. There is a sliding continuum, which takes the believer from one end to the other with many subtle shades in between but thats true in any belief or ideological system, not only Islam. Islamism is viewed with suspicioun within Islam. Most Muslims aren't so stupid as to believe that it offers them anything new, merely a rehashing of what they've been hearing all their lives, with of course a new cast of characters who seek to control not only them but their beliefs as well. Muslims can be as cynical as Westerners or Christians. What we need to do is play upon that cynicism if we are to win "The Long War"(tm). I think our biggest problem is that the West and the US in particular has concentrated far too long on the stick and not looked sufficiently at the carrot in waging this war but then, thats a consequence of their strategy being driven I believe more by fear than rationality.

 

[FutureTank]

So I guess we will never have peace in Israel because of this, because of the radical ones who want to spin the Koran into their own way of thinking. Why do they not go after Russia more than what they are doing at the present time, could it be because we are viewed as conquerors that must be driven out at all costs, after we leave they will concentrate on destroying Israel and may go into Russia to stir things up.

Actually they don't 'spin' Koran. It is a matter of interpretation. In the 'West' the Islamic scholarly leadership has been convinced through internal communal as well as external societal pressure to deny the more extreme interpretations and accept the more lenient interpretations to satisfy the need of the non-Islamic governenment's PR campaign.

For example during Vietnam the South Vietnamese were portrayed as a pece-loving Buddhist society subjected to violence by the Communist North. The fact that the South and North had been separated for centuries, and their conflict predated arrival of the French. Also 'forgotten' was the destruction by the 'south' Vietnamese of the Champa society of coastal pirates who were worshipers of the Hindu cults. In fact the Vietnamese had muscled their way into the area they now inhabit, eventually pushing the indeginous tribes West.

The same is happening with this war. Islam is a conflict-oriented society/religion. It spread by war, and its methods are forceful at all levels of social application. The only reason it was halted is because it ran into stronger enemies like the Khazars, the early Franks, the Chin, the Hindus and eventually the Turks.

Now they find the Jews challenging them again, the Europeans are refusing to surrender, the Indians are growing more prosperous, and they are forced to accept help from the Chinese. Even the Turks are slipping from the 'fold'. All this makes the madrassa 'teachers' very upset because this is not the 'plan' in the Koran.

 

[FutureTank]

Why do they not go after Russia more than what they are doing at the present time, could it be because we are viewed as conquerors that must be driven out at all costs, after we leave they will concentrate on destroying Israel and may go into Russia to stir things up.

Yes.
Israel is still at war.
Russians are already talking about the 'after' of Iraq and the impact on their national security. The professionalisation of the military units is proceeding faster then proposed only three years go, and the emphasis is on elite units as well as AD and EW units.

 

[eckherl]

Yes.
Israel is still at war.
Russians are already talking about the 'after' of Iraq and the impact on their national security. The professionalisation of the military units is proceeding faster then proposed only three years go, and the emphasis is on elite units as well as AD and EW units.

After we leave Iraq, do you think that Saudi Arabia may also start having problems due to their support of the U.S, is this some of the reasoning behind Israel and Saudi Arabia holding discussions.

 

[FutureTank]

After we leave Iraq, do you think that Saudi Arabia may also start having problems due to their support of the U.S, is this some of the reasoning behind Israel and Saudi Arabia holding discussions.

Yes, hence they are spending 7 billion on a border security zone.