New Danish Frigates
- Thread starter PhillTaj
- Start date
contedicavour
New Member
They'd better. USN Burkes (at least the first batch) have no CIWS, only ESSMs and SM2s. French FREMMs will only carry Aster (may be they'll end up with Mistral but that's not much more than a Stinger in terms of range).
So latest generation SAMs are designed to shoot down any incoming threat, starting with SSMs.
cheers
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Odense got the contract to build the patrol vessels/frigates. 
contedicavour
New Member
I love the "patrol ships" denomination for ships which are in reality AAW FFGs or almost DDGsOdense got the contract to build the patrol vessels/frigates.
I see our admirals aren't the only ones being creative in ship type definitions (remember the LHD=hospital ship )cheers
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yeah, thogh I would prefer that they are referred to as frigates, when commisioned.I love the "patrol ships" denomination for ships which are in reality AAW FFGs or almost DDGs
cheers
Btw, the Naval Material Command refers to above drawing as "the final version".
contedicavour
New Member
Great ! Btw does the final design tell us anything new about the selection of SM-2 III aboard the ship ? The VLS is amidships right ? There's no space elsewhere...Yeah, thogh I would prefer that they are referred to as frigates, when commisioned.
Btw, the Naval Material Command refers to above drawing as "the final version".
cheers
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Yes, the VLS is amidships. Missiles haven't been ordered yet, so I don't know. But this press release gives a very strong clue towards US missiles.
US missiles it will be IMV.
It would be interesting to examine what an alternative missile loadout would be using Sylver launchers. Do you know the specifications of those? (Weight, dimensions.)
Danish admirals are definately weird.:
Calling the Thetis class frigates for fisheries protection vessel.
Calling assault icebreakers for patrollers.
Calling a hospital ship for a royal yacht.
Calling a minelayer a command support ship.
The last major naval action involving a Danish admiral was his intentional sinking of his own fleet.
Calling the Thetis class frigates for fisheries protection vessel.
Calling assault icebreakers for patrollers.
Calling a hospital ship for a royal yacht.
Calling a minelayer a command support ship.
The last major naval action involving a Danish admiral was his intentional sinking of his own fleet.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
There are a couple of articles in a Danish paper on the Danish Patrol Frigates today.
http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845314/
http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845318/
They are in Danish. I may elaborate later when I have the time. Some interesting topics are:
http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845314/
http://www.berlingske.dk/indland/artikel:aid=845318/
They are in Danish. I may elaborate later when I have the time. Some interesting topics are:
- Why they a called Patrol Ships (Ths will love this one).
- Their employment - 1,000 ship navy and that Danish shipping lines handle 10% of the container world trade - responsibility to take part in global maritime security, and the political capital derived thereof.
- Price comparison with the frigates/destroyers of other navies..
- Planned purchase of the optional 127mm Mk45 mod 4.
- Comments on the relatively sensitive subject of Mærsk (Lindø) covering the budget overrun of the Absalons.
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Unless I missed something (possible - my comprehension ain't great), that price comparison is very interesting. 7000 mn DKR for FIVE ships, compared to prices of 2600 mn DKR for 1 Dutch frigate, 4000 mn for each Norwegian one, & they quote 6300 mn for a single British ship (I presume they mean a Type 45). Does the Danish price include all weapons & equipment? I strongly suspect those prices are not on the same basis, even allowing for the two "såkaldte fleksible støtteskibe" having cheaper fit-outs.
I like "De tre patruljeskibe, som i ethvert andet land end Danmark kaldes fregatter", & "Patruljeskibene bliver deciderede krigsskibe". Yeah - we noticed.
Is the concern over manning serious? Is it likely that it won't be possible to man them all?
Any big celebration planned for the 500th anniversary?
Thinking out loud:
1. The article explicitely mentioned Tomahawks ... I seem to recall from the now defunct subprogramme that they mentioned cruise missiles as an option - if not Tomahaws at that occation.
2. No mentioning of minelaying ... He is coy.
3. Wang is security concious - and would dearly love the same control over the Malaccan as there is/will be in Danish waters - his. That could explain his interest of bringing VTS under his direct command. Perhaps is it that his concept of Danish waters isn't streaching from Kronstadt to Ushant, but to Darwin.......
And on his homepage there is a piracy briefing.
4. Just me rambling: Is Maersk's real motive building affordable high endurance frigattes with littoral capability??? He has not cut the throat of Lindø - even though they have been operating at a loss for several years??? Can we see his executive don a bush-hat over thier pin-striped??
Sorry: Just me musing.
1. The article explicitely mentioned Tomahawks ... I seem to recall from the now defunct subprogramme that they mentioned cruise missiles as an option - if not Tomahaws at that occation.
2. No mentioning of minelaying ... He is coy.
3. Wang is security concious - and would dearly love the same control over the Malaccan as there is/will be in Danish waters - his. That could explain his interest of bringing VTS under his direct command. Perhaps is it that his concept of Danish waters isn't streaching from Kronstadt to Ushant, but to Darwin.......
And on his homepage there is a piracy briefing.
4. Just me rambling: Is Maersk's real motive building affordable high endurance frigattes with littoral capability??? He has not cut the throat of Lindø - even though they have been operating at a loss for several years??? Can we see his executive don a bush-hat over thier pin-striped??
Sorry: Just me musing.
Allow me to follow your example.
What a strange country we live in where everything related to the military has to go through the spin machine. This is partly due to the power of the left in danish politics but I think its the right wing that here wants to completely change the functions of the danish navy and prefer to hide this behind a seemingly harmless retoric.
Cruise missiles are easily associated with nuclear weapons. Tomahawks have become associated with accurate weapons that avoid civilian casualties and dont put own personnel at risk, a political correct weapon.
Well have we ever really mentioned minelaying? During the cold war we all used the ferries in Halskov without any idea what other function they served. Ok persons with a specific interest could easily figure it out, but the general population had no idea. Mines are just not a weapon you can get the public to like, better to just not mention them. Its having the missiles but not the nukes all over again.
I must admit I was a bit shocked when I read these articles. This is a completely new concept of the danish navy. Piracy in the Indian Ocean? A Danish "patrol" ship stationed at Diego Garcia?
We are offered an explanation to why these are not frigates but patrol ships. That this should be connected to the policies of the left wing in the 80ties. I just dont buy it. The memory of the danish public when it comes to politics is meassured in months, not in decades and I cant see anyone other than the communists having a problem here, surely not the social democrats and the social liberals, the only ones that matter.
Maybe it tells us what function these ships are suppose to have in the future. After all we are use to "patrolling" the seas around the Faroe Islands and Greenland, to extend this concept to cover from the Strait of Malacca to the Suez may just work in the confused danish public. Then you have the "support" ships to do just that.
If I am right in atleast some of these ramblings, this would mean a turn away from territorial defense and viewing Russia as a potential threat in the future. Denmark would get a white water navy again. No wonder Maersk is willing to accept a little loss here, he gets his own private security in the gulf.
Now if I personally support this is something I need to think about for a while
Sorry for musing along.
Well it wasn't the ones in Halsskov (exepting of course Sprogø), it was the ones in Korsør, BIG rail ferries. And more important: Those sailing Fehmarn Belt. But otherwise You are quite correct. Funny thing: The ferry between Hirtshals and Kristanssand kept on sailing WITH rails and a small onetrack private railroad. Lost money hand over fist.
As to the reorientation of the Danish Navy: Consider the fact that Wang is reupted to be smug. This means he pretty much thinks the Baltic Fleet sown up: A task for the combined effort of the Estonian Navy and the Danish Naval Home Guard. I'm not saying he is wrong though.
As to where the "patrollers" are to have home away from home - I would try and have a look at the ports of call of Vædderen. That was why I suppressed my mirth at the thought of Maersk Executives wearing Aussie shorts, boots and bushhat. I think these patrollers would be handy for the Aussies - they could do with ships for the Indonesian Archipelago - and stuff them with equipment according to their needs.
Plus Wang has personally shown an interest in the voyage of Vædderen - and I don't think little marine worms are his allabsorbing hobby.
Anders Lund Madsen is perfectly correct in his assesment of the research on Vædderen being a charade - at least in my view.
As to the reorientation of the Danish Navy: Consider the fact that Wang is reupted to be smug. This means he pretty much thinks the Baltic Fleet sown up: A task for the combined effort of the Estonian Navy and the Danish Naval Home Guard. I'm not saying he is wrong though.
As to where the "patrollers" are to have home away from home - I would try and have a look at the ports of call of Vædderen. That was why I suppressed my mirth at the thought of Maersk Executives wearing Aussie shorts, boots and bushhat. I think these patrollers would be handy for the Aussies - they could do with ships for the Indonesian Archipelago - and stuff them with equipment according to their needs.
Plus Wang has personally shown an interest in the voyage of Vædderen - and I don't think little marine worms are his allabsorbing hobby.
Anders Lund Madsen is perfectly correct in his assesment of the research on Vædderen being a charade - at least in my view.
found this one:
http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2005/AbsalonUSA.htm
he sure is busy our Admiral Wang
http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2005/AbsalonUSA.htm
he sure is busy our Admiral Wang
Certainly: What interest me is that the Freedom class is supposed to be a trimaran, whereas - to achive pitch stability Absalon hulls are build like passenger ferries: No beam for and and aft and lot amidship with assistant keel to dampen rolling.
I recently went with Pearl of Scandinavia. No pitching, no rolling; but she didn't like the long waves from the North Sea passed the Skaw - she yawed.
When I was told she originally was designed for the Stockholm-Turku route that little point was cleared up.
I recently went with Pearl of Scandinavia. No pitching, no rolling; but she didn't like the long waves from the North Sea passed the Skaw - she yawed.
When I was told she originally was designed for the Stockholm-Turku route that little point was cleared up.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
You seem to read Danish quite well.
Yes 7000 million DKR for 3 frigates + 2 support ships. It breaks down to 4700 million DKR for 3 frigates and 2300 million for 2 support ships.
The Danish ships use StanFlex, which means not all weapons and missiles are accounted for in this number. I'll get back to that.
Comparison (PAUC?) - 100 £ = 1100 DKR
Danish Support Ship - 105 million £
Danish Patrol Frigate - 143 million £
Norwegian Nansen - 364 million £
Dutch LCF - 236 million £
UK Type 45 - 573 million £
Regarding cost of Patrol ships. If you include cost of 5" gun (8.2 m £), 32 SM-2 IIIA (7.4 m £), 24 ESSM (2.2 m £), 76mm SR (4.2 m £ ?), 16 Harpoon II (6.9 m £) and 4 Stingers (0.1 m £), you can add a further 27 m £.
I don't know the cost of 2 Mk56, 2 Mk141, 35mm Millenium plus 4 MU-90. I'll assume 13 m £ for these items lumped together.
Thus the cost for a Patrol ships with everything, in full war configuration, arrive at 183 m £, including 76 missiles. However, this is if you procure a full complement of equipment for each ship and do not distribute it over 17+ StanFlex ships, where they will be equipped according to tasking/mission. So the cost is effectively less. Still, at 183 m £ you get 3+ Patrol Ship for each Type 45.
Does the Type 45 figure include missiles?Sure is odd how naval vessels are classified...I like "De tre patruljeskibe, som i ethvert andet land end Danmark kaldes fregatter", & "Patruljeskibene bliver deciderede krigsskibe". Yeah - we noticed.
This was flagged some time ago. There is a shortage of personnel of 1,100 across all three services. The RDN is c. 100 short. Mostly ratings, but also specialist types. The reasons for the shortfall are the classic ones: The workforce is at an all time high, but the unemployment rate is at 4% and going down; restructuring of basing and assignments impact on retention; OPH(H) and cutters in the North Atlantic and UN/NATO deployments have 6 month rotation of crew. This means a high percentage of sailing personnel is deployed on long missions at any given time - affects family life.
The RDN has gone more public with its recruiting campaigns the past year. And I if restructuring doesn't become a permanent, it would help on retention.
Very little has been made public. I think a naval parade along the lines of the T200 International Fleet Review is going to happen. Also a television documentary series on the history of the RDN is to be made.
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
It's rather that cruise missiles have traditionally been seen as strategic (offensive) weapons, rather than tactical. Perception of this has matured and it is more normal to have them in inventory, as they proliferate.
As to manning. I don't think that to be very serious.
1. The manning of a Patroller/Absalon is about 100 souls. Niels Iuel class corvettes are 93. A Thetis is about 60.
2. The old Peder Skram had 173.
The problem is that with the new tasks they will probably need a relief crew extra.
It is no more a concern than it has always been to get qualified officers and ratings. A couple of years back they had serious trouble getting pilots for the air force. That is the sort of problems you have a personel section in the general staff for.
1. The manning of a Patroller/Absalon is about 100 souls. Niels Iuel class corvettes are 93. A Thetis is about 60.
2. The old Peder Skram had 173.
The problem is that with the new tasks they will probably need a relief crew extra.
It is no more a concern than it has always been to get qualified officers and ratings. A couple of years back they had serious trouble getting pilots for the air force. That is the sort of problems you have a personel section in the general staff for.