New Danish Frigates

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
When was the last time when you compared the armed forces of Russia with the ones of the baltic states?
There is a huge difference in defending a country and in maintaining some guerilla operations.
If they wanted to the russians would roll through the baltic states in no time and NATO could do nothing directly against it.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Waylander: Oh yes, and they could have taken Berlin any time, they could have rolled over Bornholm any time. But they didn't for the simple reason that the implications were to serious.
What Russia really doesn't need is a new Chechetniya with a Nato country.

I don't know If I've told You this; but

Just after the new independence some Danish Home Guards people suggested that their summer cruise with the cutter (and we are NOT using US Coast Guard termininology) could go to the "new" Baltic states.

The Admirals were aghast; but the secreaty of defence at the time - Hækkerup - thought it a splendid idea. So they went held a few exercises (throwing a a corkbelt in the water and try to retrieve it - in the 7th attempt) with the locals.

Now the point was: They sailed 6 of these small tubs with potbellied crew; but they had at a very early point established Danish right to operate with a fleet under the very nose of Baltiskaya Flot. The Russians could do nothing but ignore it - or they would have been rediculed.

Some times a pawn move is decisive in chess - and say what You want about the Russians - they know how to play chess.

What is happening these years is the pawns move ahead on the board. You see few cruisers and aircraft carriers launched; but lots and lots of patrol boats.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I just replied to the possibility of using Marines for a coastal invasion if the Russians would decide to conquer the baltic states.
I didn't talk about if the Russians really want to do this.
I just talked about the ability of two brigades of US Marines trying to get a beachhead at the coast of the baltic states in case of an attack.
That a russian invasion is totally crazy with them being NATO-Members is right but not part of this scenario.


Trying to land two marine brigades against some half a dozen russian tank divisions would result in a massacre.
In a conventional conflict about the baltic states NATO would need a lot of heavy formations which attack russia over land by using Poland.

And to get a little bit back to topic.
For missions which only target is to deny the baltic sea to non NATO countries FACs, Korvettes, SSKs and naval attack fighters are still the best choice.
An area AAW ability is nice to have but as Contedicavour said I also think that it is more needed in open sea operations and during peacekeeping missions.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Waylander: That IS the trick - the marines are not going to land in the face of 2 dozen russian divisions - they are to land BEFORE the russians get there - and dig in.

Air Defence: Well that has me supposing they might have to back up the Nansen class. Norway has a boarder with Russia.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well, that would be a nice run who reaches the coast first.

And even if the Marines are the first ones to be there I would not try to face russian tank divisions with two light infantry brigades.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Look again:A major invasion takes quite some time to prepare - especially with heavy forces.
We are not talking about something hapening overnight.
As long as the Russians behave themselves it will be limited what weapons there will be in the Baltic countries.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Since june 1953 Greenland is a part of Denmark, not a colony - and they got home rule in 1972 (my interpretation of that is that the bribes needed should be isolated from the official Danish accounts - it is a claim that hasn't been challenged).
Of military forces there are:

1. US Air Base Thule.
2. A microscopic force on Søndre Strømfjord Air Base for "ice-patrols" by RDaAF Challengers.
3. North-Eastern Greenland. Sirius Patrol. Cavalry with dogsledges.
4. 2 Thetis-class Frigates (I think the one on the Faisles is the one drawn down? Anybody better informed?)
5. 2 Adlek-class cutters.
6. East Coast: Mestersvig airfield. (I still think)
7. Naval Station Grønnedal, seat of the Greenland Command.
8. Entire Greenland recce'd for landing spots with transport
9. What arrangements that has been made for Iceland I don't know, the agreement (public part) isn't very lucid on that point.

Have I missed anybody??

Oh yea! Probably a LA class or two splashing around off shore.


Any information on Norwegean forces on Jan Mayen, Bear Island and Svalbard?
 

aaaditya

New Member
Since june 1953 Greenland is a part of Denmark, not a colony - and they got home rule in 1972 (my interpretation of that is that the bribes needed should be isolated from the official Danish accounts - it is a claim that hasn't been challenged).
Of military forces there are:

1. US Air Base Thule.
2. A microscopic force on Søndre Strømfjord Air Base for "ice-patrols" by RDaAF Challengers.
3. North-Eastern Greenland. Sirius Patrol. Cavalry with dogsledges.
4. 2 Thetis-class Frigates (I think the one on the Faisles is the one drawn down? Anybody better informed?)
5. 2 Adlek-class cutters.
6. East Coast: Mestersvig airfield. (I still think)
7. Naval Station Grønnedal, seat of the Greenland Command.
8. Entire Greenland recce'd for landing spots with transport
9. What arrangements that has been made for Iceland I don't know, the agreement (public part) isn't very lucid on that point.

Have I missed anybody??

Oh yea! Probably a LA class or two splashing around off shore.


Any information on Norwegean forces on Jan Mayen, Bear Island and Svalbard?
thaks very much for the information,but what about missile defences on the island,i believe that two frigates and two cutters do not form an adequate defence force(even with a couple of los angeles class splashng around).
 

Ths

Banned Member
As to air defence: This is not perfectly clear what is needed - at least by the public. The only aircraft liable to come that way is bombers, Bears probably, and Keflavik has stood down - apparently the need for airdefence has some time ago receeded. In it's heyday Keflavik - a NAS by the way - was a Squadron of F-15, an AWACS detachment and a squadron of P-3C Orions.

As to surface vessels: Those waters are so hostile that even skippers from the Fairisles avoid it. Judging by the numbers of poach fishers they bring in (just had one - I believe the first in 5 years) they are NOT sailing where the fishermen are.
The Thetis class breaks 20 cm of ice (AFAIR), they are specially build to avoid overicing which appears with scant warning and even leaves even less trace."http://navalhistory.dk/Danish/Skibene/T/Triton_inspektionsskib (1991-).htm"
The pictures taken on that site are taken in fair weather - for the simple reason that in bad weather everybody are fully occupied. The problem is not the enemy: It is nature.

I once drove home from work - I couldn't see the bonnet of the car. there I was racing along at 2 knots stopping twice to scrape of ice off the windshield (heat full up and wipers on full blik just creeping off the windshield with accumulations. Wondering if I could make the 3 miles home or have to stay the night in the with the car in the ditch.
Might be off-topic; but that is the kind of weather that sets in again and again - especially in the winter. Satelite photoes show one storm after another like pearls on a string - and I've only experienced the neqerq - the piteraq on the east coast has blown towns away - literaly. They reach windspeeds of tropical storms, but hit much harder as temperature is minus 20In those conditions surface forces have a hard time.
 

meatball88

New Member
puzzled

Armament:

1 - 127 mm Gun M/02
1-2 - 76 mm Gun M/85
1-2 - 35 mm Gun M/04 (CIWS)
x - 12,7 mm Heavy Machine Guns
16 - HARPOON SSM Block II
24 - Evolved Sea Sparrow (ESSM) SAM's
1 - Mk 41 Multi missile launcher with 32 cells for long range SAM's etc.
2x2 - Stinger SAM Lv M/93
2x2 - Anti Submarine Torpedo Launchers (MU-90)

i don't see many modern warships having 2, let alone 3 main guns. why does this have not only a 127mm, but 1 or 2 76mm gun? more importantly, is there room for that many?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
i don't see many modern warships having 2, let alone 3 main guns. why does this have not only a 127mm, but 1 or 2 76mm gun? more importantly, is there room for that many?
There are room for 2 "main guns" of the 76mm-127mm calibre. The Italian Horizons are examples of warships with more than one main gun.
 

Ths

Banned Member
I don't know if there is room for all the equipment: But You miss an essential point with this new class: Flexibility without compromising the advantages of specialisation.

The standard flex complex is so basic and started with Flyvefisken-class.

1. Make a hull able to deal with the waters at hand. That in the Flyvefisken resulted in a very small hull of shallow draught. That meant that you could not get all functions (ASW, Minesweeping, Missiles) in one ship. By putting the equipment of one large ship into several little ships you solved the old problem of size/capability.
The weapons systems are build into containers that can be loaded and plugged in! The containers are plugcompatible with the displays on the bridge.
F.i. Ravnen may one day be a patroller with a 76 mm gun, the next day a minesweeper, the third an air defence vessel. It all depends on what containers you plug in and the ratings that follow the container.

2. The new patrolships (they are cute - they are frigates) takes the concept to a new level: It adjusts the hull to the waters! For the shallows in the Baltic it has a low draught - for the Atlantic it lies deeper and are more seaworthy. Thus you have both a large vessel for the Baltic, where you might have to off-load some equipment to a Flyvefisken, and you have a high endurance frigate to back up the Thetis class.

3. It brings a whole new concept of what a ships company is: The ships company is the ratings brought together for the occation! The army has for ages been used to the concept in the brigade versus regiment discussion. The strength of the brigade is that everybody are fully qualified, in the regiment the they all know each other - each is nescessary and gives command problems, which can be solved.

4. The concept of command is very high on the agenda. Danish naval officers get command at an early age. There are lots of small boats, where a young lieutenant can learn HOW to play god - as all skippers have to.
The Thetis-class give most of the sailors a lot of seatime.

5. It is an attempt to overcome the traditional split and waste of resources otherwise inherent in having a two-ocean fleet. The Russians have never overcome the problem f.i.: Ships for the Baltic Fleet has always been rather useless else where, The arctic fleet has been isolated as well, not to mention the seperation-problems of the Black Sea fleet and the Far East Fleet. The US had to dig a canal to handle the problem.

Those who critizise the Absalon for being a jack of all trades but master of none, simply doesn't get it. She can switch roles the very same day WITHOUT compromise.

Relevant questions are:

Frigates: How much ice-reinforcement to they have on the waterline. Admiral Pribka of the Estonian Navy is a very good choise for a large ship - being the ex-Beskytteren, she is icereinforced and can thus operate when others have to remain in port. The nose bulp of the frigates probably means she cannot have the full monty of icereinforcement. (Personally i suspect the bow thruster is need to bring back maneauvre when she is trimmed tail-heavy to reduce draught).

Command ships: That main deck for transporting tanks ..... Yes; but she is more than that: She is a large capacity minelayer - where? (I just checked: Oh my prophetic soul!) I heard some rumours that they wanted to rebuild the Falster-class for the command function years back. They apparently gave up the idea of making a purse out of sows ear and start from a clean sheet of paper.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Answer Command ships: Esbern Snare has just delivered the earthly remains of the late Zarina to Russia.
They insisted on sailing her the same way she came as a princess - which just happens to be Kronstadt and the very heart of the russian baltic fleet.

That was the mission!

Just think of the incredible cheek: This is where we intend to put the cork in!
 

contedicavour

New Member
Wow I've been away for a day and so many different arguments...

> Greenland : a couple of Thetis with no missiles may seem small but who would want to occupy that huge ice mass while being exposed to Canadian and USAF/USN attacks ??

> Defensive capability of the Baltic states : I've read a lot on how Finland heroically resisted hugely superior soviet forces before and during WW2 ; if the Baltic states present similar terrain featres then may be there is a chance to slow down Russian tank divisions long enough for NATO support forces to land... though I agree it would take heavy forces coming from Poland to provide sufficient defensive forces, since the Marines forces are too light for a clash with a steel mass of hundreds of T80/90s.

> Use of artillery on ships : crowding several guns from 127 to 76mm calibre on a ship can make sense if the main gun is for land attack and the others are sort of CIWS guns, all using GPS/radio guided munitions.

cheers
 

Ths

Banned Member
Conte di Cavour

Sensible remarks.
Greenland: precisely! Nobody travels up there without VERY good reason.

Baltic states: rumour has it that their field manuals are old swedish: Before tanks. A well prepared defence in a wooded area can really stop armour with very simple means. Woods swallow prodigious amounts of artillery fire and small arms ranges are short.

Guns on ships: Precisely: What is the ships CURRENT mission.
 

Ths

Banned Member
It has been gnawing in the back of my head for a month.

I wondered why Esbern Snare was conveing the earthly remains of the late empress to St. Pietersburg, touching at Krohnstadt, Peter and Paul and so on.
I wondered also what Rear-Admiral was doing at that party - if ever there was an operational man.

Then it struck me: Absalon and Esbern Snare are primarely mine layers! That big "car deck" has rails for mines.:hitwall

That is the real mission: Mining the entry to the home port of Baltiskaya Flot - and this was a wonderfull pretext for an in depth recogniscance. Not operationel, perhaps not, but I would be very surprised if all the underwater sensors weren't in perfect working order. Perhaps even an undersea remotely controlled vehikle - to check for terrorist bombs - naturally.

That's the reason for Wangs presense: He wanted to supervise the mission personally, thus reserved time in his busy travelling schedule (visiting Vædderen in remote locations). He must be reporting higher up. A powerpoint presentation to ........

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall when some Danish Captain said: "Excuse me Admiral, but if that Baltic Fleet is such a big problem to the USA, why don't you just prevent it from leaving port???"

HOW?

"Well - put the cork in. Maybe we can back to You on this one - if You are interested."
 
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