Indonesia's acquisition of Russian submarines

[contedicavour]

back to topics, like i said before yes we need, LST,LPD, opv, patrol boat, etc etc. we realize and we're workin on it but we also need "striking force" that's why buying/upgrading our fleet (submarine, sigma corvette, upgrading engines and weapons of parchim class, changing ssm for van speijk class, upgrading weapons and sensor in FPB 57). we just have a few brand new LPD from S. Korea. PT PAL is also building an LPD, FPB's and planning of building our own national corvette. our fasharkan in mentigi, manokwari,makassar and jakarta is also making a small patrol boat for that matters.

Sounds like a lot of progress both in operational terms and in terms of construction/maintenance capability of your national shipyards.
However one point remains : with the money needed to buy 4 improved Kilo and 2 Amur/Lada, your navy could afford to buy 6 brand new multi-purpose FFGHs to replace the 1960s vintage Van Speijk, instead of just upgrading their SSMs. Or it could buy 30 OPVH. And so on...
Up to you to invest as you want, but having brand new SSKs with cruise missiles while your major surface fleet ships are turning obsolete, is quite a gamble.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

As long as I understand this forum is especially for talking about military things. This has nothing to do with racism, etc.
Many here know that military purchase decisions are not always clever in every armed forces all around the world.

 

[Capt. Picard]

rude ? who is rude ? have you read above thread before ? who the hell are u guys tell us what we we should have/buy ? is it your money ? if u want to talk in the forum there are what u call "manner" i hate to be rude but when you're mocking our nations, i said again "go to hell with u guys" we realize that our nations is not as good as we want to be. but it's our nation and we VERY PROUD WITH IT !!!. have u ever realize that anyone can read this forum ? and what u feel is someone mocking your nations in an "open forum ?" there are 250 million of indonesian people will feel very offended if they reading this. back to topics, like i said before yes we need, LST,LPD, opv, patrol boat, etc etc. we realize and we're workin on it but we also need "striking force" that's why buying/upgrading our fleet (submarine, sigma corvette, upgrading engines and weapons of parchim class, changing ssm for van speijk class, upgrading weapons and sensor in FPB 57). we just have a few brand new LPD from S. Korea. PT PAL is also building an LPD, FPB's and planning of building our own national corvette. our fasharkan in mentigi, manokwari,makassar and jakarta is also making a small patrol boat for that matters.

blitzkrieg you are being very sensitive. There is a lot of discussion on this board that picks at and critcisizes every decision that is made. We mostly come from free open societies that allow dissent so you are probably going to get into trouble here by being sensitive to discussion.

Yes we can "discuss it" if we want wether you think we are mocking your nation or not. ( and we are not)

 

[Aussie Digger]

There are 250 million of indonesian people will feel very offended if they reading this. back to topics, like i said before yes we need, LST,LPD, opv, patrol boat, etc etc. we realize and we're workin on it but we also need "striking force" that's why buying/upgrading our fleet (submarine, sigma corvette, upgrading engines and weapons of parchim class, changing ssm for van speijk class, upgrading weapons and sensor in FPB 57). we just have a few brand new LPD from S. Korea. PT PAL is also building an LPD, FPB's and planning of building our own national corvette. our fasharkan in mentigi, manokwari,makassar and jakarta is also making a small patrol boat for that matters.

We are not mocking you OR Indonesia. We are simply stating our opinions on these purchases and speculating on the reasons behind them. THAT is the reason this place exists...

I personally hope that 250 million Indonesians DO read it. (If web's servers can take it!!!). These purchases ARE outrageous and will do little to lift the military capability of your Country, IF they can't be supported. If all your people read it than perhaps they might even AGREE with and realise what a drain they are on a Country that can't afford such purchases.

Did you even read the article? Indonesia is buying these platforms on CREDIT. Not paying for them up front. What happens if you default on the repayments? Indonesia could not afford to keep it's F-16's and C-130's operational, despite the US easing restrictions on support for these assets, yet expects that it can with the higher costing SU-27/30 series fighters???

It is ludicrous and doesn't serve the benefit of the Indonesian people, but rather the ego's of those in charge of Indonesia's armed forces. "oh look, Malaysia's getting SU-30's and Singapore's getting F-15SK's. We'd better "keep up with the Joneses"...

It seems to me and many others, that these purchases are being made WITHOUT a sound strategy in place, but rather in reaction to other regional Countries, modernising their forces. Attempting to keep up with Singapore , Australia or China in "high tech" defence technologies is futile in my opinion. Indonesia simply cannot AFFORD (financially) to do so...

 

[pie1536]

submarine issue

it is quite fair due to the indonesian was the largest island country. seem it required lot of the submarine to controll it territories. as it neighbour country already starting looking for new submarine.. it should have start to add it submarine quantity. If I was not mistaken it only have small number of it.. less then 4..

AS for malaysian .. we might receive our first submarine on this 2007 (all 2 new submarine and 1 recond all from france.. SSK and Agosta).. hope this could become an injuction of fire power and can protect our country better.

I think the submarine was badly required by island country to controll it sea teritory...

plz reply...

 

[Todjaeger]

There are 250 million of indonesian people will feel very offended if they reading this. back to topics, like i said before yes we need, LST,LPD, opv, patrol boat, etc etc. we realize and we're workin on it but we also need "striking force" that's why buying/upgrading our fleet (submarine, sigma corvette, upgrading engines and weapons of parchim class, changing ssm for van speijk class, upgrading weapons and sensor in FPB 57). we just have a few brand new LPD from S. Korea. PT PAL is also building an LPD, FPB's and planning of building our own national corvette. our fasharkan in mentigi, manokwari,makassar and jakarta is also making a small patrol boat for that matters.

Blitzkrieg, you are quite correct that Indonesia is a sovereign nation, and can arm itself as it feels appropriate. I have to say though, that you are incorrect about people trying to offend Indonesia regarding the purchase.

Do you have any insight on the strategic reasoning behind the announced purchase of the SSKs? Or where such a purchase will fit in with the rest of the Indonesian military?

As outsiders looking in, to many of us, the sale doesn't make much sense given the perceived needs of other areas in the Indonesian military. Also, given that the RAN has been working with the Indonesian navy to develope a "Green water navy" the purchase of SSKs appears to be moving away from a "Green water navy."

I'm sure any enlightenment would be appreciated.

-Cheers

 

[Todjaeger]

I think the submarine was badly required by island country to controll it sea teritory...

A submarine is very useful in controlling or denying sea territory, as for being a requirement...

The thing to remember is that a nations' military is made up of a number of different parts, all of which should work together in meeting a nations' defence needs.

Take the UK for example. Suppose for some reason, that the UK decided to devote most of it's defence budget to building a fleet of SSNs. This would allow the Royal Navy to dominate UK waters as well as threaten the home waters of all nearby nations. So far, it seems like a good idea.

Now imagine that, in order to secure the needed funds in the budget, all RAF fighters were either retired or had all maintenance suspended, with the result that RAF fighters were no longer reliably combat capable. To most people, the boost in submarine capability would not begin to make up for the loss of air superiority or interceptor abilities by the RAF. Any nearby nation that might not be able to threaten or harrass the UK via ship would instead be able to bomb the UK with near impunity.

It is this, the concentration of capability in SSKs, at the possible expense of other areas, that has people wondering about the purchase.

-Cheers

 

[pie1536]

too expensive

It is quite true that the price does matter yet they'll manage it some how.... the most important of purchasing the submarine not to play along with it's neighbour (singapore is the starter)...

As for a country (indonesia) it still need to buy new weapons which is up to date in order to prevent their country... Malaysian also yearly maintaining it 4% - 5% of it income for defence.. yet singapore keep on up their budget .. lasy year 15% and it is announcing that they already get secret weapons that cannot be purchase in the market... let's hope it isn't nuc/.... I think Indonesia also have their budget for it defence... as u know it already have it own shipbuilding to make it naval ship..

It is ok...if war not going to happen yet if anything goes wrong and people goes to uncivilize... war might happen.. and for the issue of this submarine.. only(under water) submarine can be a threat for another submarine... even usa also keep on tract of soviet submarine location...
Last month also a chinese submarine allert usa carrier by show up near by it... as what I read.. the area is close enough for it to destroy it... so is is much need to have submarine then just a korvet or destroyer class...

Plz reply...

 

[Francis]

I have heard that The Akula II and Amur/Lada Class submarines are effective but are'nt they just SSNs. My opinion is that it would be better to have SSBNs like the , Borei class submarine or the Delta IV class submarine so tha they can use multiple inependently targetable reentry vehicles like the Trident II.

 

[Todjaeger]

I have heard that The Akula II and Amur/Lada Class submarines are effective but are'nt they just SSNs. My opinion is that it would be better to have SSBNs like the , Borei class submarine or the Delta IV class submarine so tha they can use multiple inependently targetable reentry vehicles like the Trident II.

If you are talking about the submarines Indonesia is currently planning to get, they are SSKs which is a diesel-electric (some have AIP) patrol submarine. SSN and SSBN are nuclear attack & ballistic missle subs respectively. The Akula I believe is an AAN, while I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the Amur/Lada is a SSK.

I mentioned the UK/SSNs as an example to illustrate a point, I didn't use an SSK because the Royal Navy no longer operates them.

As for Indonesia getting an SSBN, aside from the outcry over nuclear proliferation, that would make even less sense than the plan for the SSK. A ballistic missle is a long range weapon, most sub carried ballistic missles can cross an ocean. So unless Indonesia wants to be able to hit Canberra in 20 minutes time... Not to mention how "excited" the US, Russia, UK, France & China would get on detecting a ballistic missle launch.

-Cheers

 

[Francis]

If you are talking about the submarines Indonesia is currently planning to get, they are SSKs which is a diesel-electric (some have AIP) patrol submarine. SSN and SSBN are nuclear attack & ballistic missle subs respectively. The Akula I believe is an AAN, while I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the Amur/Lada is a SSK.

I mentioned the UK/SSNs as an example to illustrate a point, I didn't use an SSK because the Royal Navy no longer operates them.

As for Indonesia getting an SSBN, aside from the outcry over nuclear proliferation, that would make even less sense than the plan for the SSK. A ballistic missle is a long range weapon, most sub carried ballistic missles can cross an ocean. So unless Indonesia wants to be able to hit Canberra in 20 minutes time... Not to mention how "excited" the US, Russia, UK, France & China would get on detecting a ballistic missle launch.

-Cheers

thanks for the info

 

[Todjaeger]

thanks for the info

Sure thing, though on re-reading what I'd typed, I realised I had said the Akula was an AAN, it's an SSN.

Regarding the SSKs Indonesia is looking at getting, I believe is it going to be a version of the Kilo, or possibly a mix Kilo & Amur. Though that could easily change since I believe the delivery schedule was supposed to be a total of 12 boats spread out over an 18 year period through to 2024. Time will tell.

-Cheers

 

[pie1536]

In my opinion, its a foolish argument, as a result of ASEAN, the region has become more stable, the likelyhood of a regional flashpoint is remote.

It quite true that on the spirit of asean .. it might not be a war...
Yet all is on paper.. we not just think.. yet to prevent any threat let say from other country that suddently want to have a test ... seem not right if we are unable to pass it..

I think Indonesia just have to improve their goverment income and controll their spending on other unnecessary purchases...

To have their defence budget more strenght then before is not to over budget on aech purchases ... it is happening on every purchase for the pass 20 years..

Buying the submarine is not a big deal if they practice good contract deal.. just buy submarine that really undergone specific selection which suitable enough for indonesian territory.. not too sofisticated yet powerfull and able to perform it function/doctrin... SSK type quite relaible and maintainanable anywhere...

Gotland submarine from scotland also a choice... latest in design and avialable...not too expensive...

plz reply

 

[Todjaeger]

It quite true that on the spirit of asean .. it might not be a war...
Yet all is on paper.. we not just think.. yet to prevent any threat let say from other country that suddently want to have a test ... seem not right if we are unable to pass it..

I think Indonesia just have to improve their goverment income and controll their spending on other unnecessary purchases...

To have their defence budget more strenght then before is not to over budget on aech purchases ... it is happening on every purchase for the pass 20 years..

Buying the submarine is not a big deal if they practice good contract deal.. just buy submarine that really undergone specific selection which suitable enough for indonesian territory.. not too sofisticated yet powerfull and able to perform it function/doctrin... SSK type quite relaible and maintainanable anywhere...

Gotland submarine from scotland also a choice... latest in design and avialable...not too expensive...

plz reply

A few things on this. First, the Gotland sub is from Sweden, not Scotland. As I'd mentioned before the UK now only operates nuclear submarines and Scotland is part of the United Kingdom.

An SSK is certainly maintainable anywhere, but the proper resources are needed to do so. Also, an SSK typically requires a greater degree of maintenance than a conventional surface vessel of comparable size. Given that there are apparently reliability/availability issues within the current Indonesian surface fleet stemming from insufficient maintenance... People have to question whether Indonesia can/will perform the level of ongoing maintenance a fleet of SSKs would need to be worthwhile.

Also, given the existing gaps in other areas of the Indonesian military, one tends to wonder if, even with very good contracting, Indonesia would get better value elsewhere.

If someone could provide the thinking behind the decision to purchase, that would help a great deal. Does anyone know if there a recent defence review/White paper done by Indonesia recently (preferably in English?)

-Cheers

 

[pie1536]

indonesia definitely feels threatened particularly after australia's involvement in the timor islands uprising.the subs can be used for surveillance and intelligence gathering and also for launching special commando teams,the amur 1650 are considered to be particularly suitable for this role.

opv's are more vulnerable than a submarine and are not nearly as versatile as a submarine,they cannot be easily shifted from a defensive to an offensive role as a submarine can.

I agree... it is true that the indon was too frighten yet one by one of their island been 'taken' by others... it is necesary to patroll .. yet incase patrolling activity turn to a war game... they might need a fleet that can be there at short time without being notified.. in time vs war.. usually time will determine it.. using submarine will surely an extra advantages.. of course air support will not be forgotten... and for sure the navy at the end

The indon need to forget the lesson they had to lose one of their island because of the urguement that 'they did not patrolling on that area' ..

It is indon goverment need to decide weather to buy or not... and acting toward making the decision a reality yet the people need also been taking care... just look at singapore.. their defence budget each year too high... (reasonable at their point as they dont have a 'defend free zone') yet the people never complain it ( not too serious)..

plz reply

 

[pie1536]

4. Showing the Flag: missions to show the Indonesia flag or what Indonesia has.

For #4. Yes, a SSK fleet could show the flag, but given the costs, there are better options that would be of greater use in choices 1-3, 3 in particular.

Interested to hear what people think.

-Cheers

In my opinion mission #4 is just a bonus... it is because by doing it they could claim any island is their... with the patrol ship or without... any country can say the island never been patroling... but ... the navy can show that it is not true... this is an advantages for the submarine...

 

[abramsteve]

There are 250 million of indonesian people will feel very offended if they reading this.

Personaly I dont care mate.

Indonesia did not 'lose one of its islands to others' because it couldnt patrol it. On the contrary it was probably their involvment that lost it.

To me it comes down to a useless waste of money, by a country which can ill afford it, for the purpose of, lets be kind here, keeping up with the Jones.

 

[falcon_snack]

Nice to see this thread live again . Chill out bro blitzkrieg, this all just a talk , to hear opinions from buddies around the globe. Nothing to lose in here..

First, update news...it's only 2 subs i/o 6 subs in contract with Russia. Kilo class type 636. Still have to wait for Amur. There are also contract for 20 BMP-3F for marines and yakhont SSM.

I don't clear neither why the navy choose subs i/o OPV. But AFAIK the need for subs has been mentioned in 90's along with air defence fregate and long range MPA.
Perhaps this way, the navy needs something as an ace card, something that can count on. More fregates is cool but sub is devil at the sea . For now a new purchase for those fregates even destroyers will not going to happen (in my own opinion), simple reason, cash straps. So what you gonna do with 1 billion dollars to spend in Russia for navy? Just patrol craft? fregate? corvette? or subs?
Indonesia have the yards to make their own PC why should find in Russia? All they need just the money to make it happen(and it will)...So the choice is the sub as it more lethal than fregate/corvette, just don't forget it all come from Russia state credit. Navy can't use it to buy PC/OPV from other countries or spend it on local yards.
That's my 2 cents..any comments?

 

[contedicavour]

Nice to see this thread live again . Chill out bro blitzkrieg, this all just a talk , to hear opinions from buddies around the globe. Nothing to lose in here..

First, update news...it's only 2 subs i/o 6 subs in contract with Russia. Kilo class type 636. Still have to wait for Amur. There are also contract for 20 BMP-3F for marines and yakhont SSM.

I don't clear neither why the navy choose subs i/o OPV. But AFAIK the need for subs has been mentioned in 90's along with air defence fregate and long range MPA.
Perhaps this way, the navy needs something as an ace card, something that can count on. More fregates is cool but sub is devil at the sea . For now a new purchase for those fregates even destroyers will not going to happen (in my own opinion), simple reason, cash straps. So what you gonna do with 1 billion dollars to spend in Russia for navy? Just patrol craft? fregate? corvette? or subs?
Indonesia have the yards to make their own PC why should find in Russia? All they need just the money to make it happen(and it will)...So the choice is the sub as it more lethal than fregate/corvette, just don't forget it all come from Russia state credit. Navy can't use it to buy PC/OPV from other countries or spend it on local yards.
That's my 2 cents..any comments?

Interesting thanks.
If the issue boils down to how to best spend 1 bn USD of Russian state credit, the Russians have some very very good surface ships building... the heirs to the Krivak, called Type 20380 Steregushchiy, or even better the new type 22350 which are oceangoing FFGs with good VLS SAMs (improved Shtil IIRC).

cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

Nice to see this thread live again . Chill out bro blitzkrieg, this all just a talk , to hear opinions from buddies around the globe. Nothing to lose in here..

First, update news...it's only 2 subs i/o 6 subs in contract with Russia. Kilo class type 636. Still have to wait for Amur. There are also contract for 20 BMP-3F for marines and yakhont SSM.

I don't clear neither why the navy choose subs i/o OPV. But AFAIK the need for subs has been mentioned in 90's along with air defence fregate and long range MPA.
Perhaps this way, the navy needs something as an ace card, something that can count on. More fregates is cool but sub is devil at the sea . For now a new purchase for those fregates even destroyers will not going to happen (in my own opinion), simple reason, cash straps. So what you gonna do with 1 billion dollars to spend in Russia for navy? Just patrol craft? fregate? corvette? or subs?
Indonesia have the yards to make their own PC why should find in Russia? All they need just the money to make it happen(and it will)...So the choice is the sub as it more lethal than fregate/corvette, just don't forget it all come from Russia state credit. Navy can't use it to buy PC/OPV from other countries or spend it on local yards.
That's my 2 cents..any comments?

I'm sure Russian State Credit could have easily extended to Il-76 transport aircraft and OPV's or Frigates, manufactured by Russia, but anyway, no point getting upset as you rightly point out...