Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

contedicavour

New Member
arn't the amazons easyer to crew as they are a newer desines because that was one of the resones why the RN had to get rid of the leander.

also are there any county class users left in the world i thought PN had a couple
The last County class in PN service was the Babur, but it was deleted approx 6 years ago. Chile still had 3 in service (heavily modified with larger flight deck & hangar for helos) but they are now deleted and replaced with the Type 23 and Doorman/Heemsmerck FFGs.

Crewing wise, I doubt India has major problems of personnel ;) given the size of their armed forces ! Though yes the Amazon have less crew than the Godavaris.

cheers
 

aaaditya

New Member
i believe that the biggest strong point of the leanders ,is their excellent sea keaping,the indian leanders are still in service ,though in the training role.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #323
Pakistan to acquire three latest subs
* German, French companies to bid for contracts
* Subs to cost Pakistan Rs 77b

By Iqbal Khattak


PARIS: Pakistan will acquire three new advanced versions of conventional submarines to increase its naval capabilities to meet any challenges from the rapidly expanding Indian navy, a French Defence Ministry spokesman said.

The spokesman said that German and French companies would bid to win the contract for the three submarines, which were said to be the latest version of the Agosta submarines a French company recently built in Karachi, which India has already acquired. “We will offer (Pakistan) Marlin submarines to compete with the German bid for its U-212 submarines,” Jean-Francois Bureau, the French Defence Ministry spokesman in Paris, told Daily Times late Tuesday evening. Pakistan will need to pay around one billion euros or Rs 77 billion for the three non-nuclear submarines. The quest for new submarines comes after India reached a 1.5 billion euro deal last year with a French company for seven Scorpion submarines – even more recent than the Agosta submarines that Pakistan built last year in Karachi under licence from a French company.

But even with the Marlin or U-212 submarines, the Pakistan Navy will lag behind the Indians, as the Scorpion submarines are believed to be technologically superior.

France-Pakistan defence relations improved after the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but received a serious setback in 2002 when 11 French engineers were killed in a suicide attack near the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi.

But military relations between Pakistan and France resumed after the attack on the French engineers, the French Defence Ministry spokesman said after a briefing to a group of visiting journalists from Pakistan. France does not sell nuclear-powered submarines “as a matter of policy” said the spokesman to dispel the impression that the new submarines could carry nuclear weapons. He said the “question of regional stability” was the criterion for selling French-made weapons to countries around the world, hoping Pakistan and India would stay away from the arms race.

The Scorpion subs are technologically superior to the Agosta, Marlin and U-212 submarines. However, Scorpion subs cannot carry nuclear weapons and India will not get them before 2016.If the French company wins the bid, Pakistan will have to wait for eight years before getting the submarines, the spokesman added.

Jean-Francois Bureau said senior Pakistani and French military officials would meet January next year in either Paris or Islamabad to strengthen relations between the two armies.He said there was potential for the two armies to strengthen relations and did not rule out joint military exercises in future saying, “We are not against joint exercises with Pakistan.” The spokesman said that France was helping Pakistan upgrade its Mirage fighters in Kamra near Islamabad and a Pakistan army officer was attending courses at a French staff college.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\11\09\story_9-11-2006_pg7_11

Nothing much 'new' about this report but atleast its now official. The only thing I have a hard time swallowing are the italicized parts of this article. Why would PN even consider buying Marlins or U-212s if they weren't superior to the Scorpenes? Almost every search on internet tells me that both Marlin and U-212 WILL BE superior to the Scorpenes. Perhaps lack of knowledge on equipment used on subs displayed by the author here?
 

kams

New Member
Pakistan to acquire three latest subs
* German, French companies to bid for contracts
* Subs to cost Pakistan Rs 77b

By Iqbal Khattak
India is acquiring 6 Scorpenes not 7, and first one is scheduled to join IN in 2012, followed by one every year (i.e by 2016 all 5 will be in service) and India paid 2.7 billion euro not 1.5 billion.

Just another 'Defence reporter' from Sub-continent, most probably imbibed too much champagne before the briefing;) .
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Tragedy is that most of these reporters would'nt even know where the rudders are on a submarine but still insert their own comments which show the complete ignorance about Defence matters.

Marlin is the latest design that adds to the Scorpion's excellent capabilities. It is never considered to be technologically inferior to it. Those who doubt that will find more than enough information on the web.

Regarding the German platform, PN never considered the U-212. PN officers have frequented Germany and inspected the U-214. That is the platform that they are interested in.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Tragedy is that most of these reporters would'nt even know where the rudders are on a submarine but still insert their own comments which show the complete ignorance about Defence matters.

Marlin is the latest design that adds to the Scorpion's excellent capabilities. It is never considered to be technologically inferior to it. Those who doubt that will find more than enough information on the web.

Regarding the German platform, PN never considered the U-212. PN officers have frequented Germany and inspected the U-214. That is the platform that they are interested in.
U214 is having some trouble in Greece but is going ahead fine in South Korea. If the problems in Greece are fixed, it would have a proven record of successful local production under licence, which is probably a very high priority for the Pakistani government.
Furthermore, the French Scorpene sale to India may add a political reason to a potential selection of U214 over Marlin.
However I would still bet on Marlin as most Pakistani submarine know-how, both in operation and in production, is French.

cheers
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #328
Regarding the German platform, PN never considered the U-212. PN officers have frequented Germany and inspected the U-214. That is the platform that they are interested in.
Exactly! All this time, the reporter took me for a ride with the U-212 rhetoric. I kept thinking to myself, 'wait a minute! wasnt it suppose to be U-214?!?!' Sheeesh, what a messsed up report!
 

SATAN

New Member
Tragedy is that most of these reporters would'nt even know where the rudders are on a submarine but still insert their own comments which show the complete ignorance about Defence matters.

Marlin is the latest design that adds to the Scorpion's excellent capabilities. It is never considered to be technologically inferior to it. Those who doubt that will find more than enough information on the web.

Regarding the German platform, PN never considered the U-212. PN officers have frequented Germany and inspected the U-214. That is the platform that they are interested in.
If Pakistan were to buy a German Sub for the first time, what assurances does it have that the U214 would be free from political strings? If it were up to me, Pakistan should go for the Marlin SSK because if it is indeed based on the Scorpene design with a lot of features of the Barracuda SSN...then Pakistan could in theory fit a Nuclear Reactor on the Marlin....giving it a DeFacto SSN capability.

The U214s should be also purchased to replace the 4 Dauphin class SSK that were decommisoned earlier this year.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
then Pakistan could in theory fit a Nuclear Reactor on the Marlin....giving it a DeFacto SSN capability.
Have you forgotten how small this sub is? You might as well create perpetual motion. At 75m long, 1850 tonnes they are lucky to fit the AIP on board.
 

SATAN

New Member
Have you forgotten how small this sub is? You might as well create perpetual motion. At 75m long, 1850 tonnes they are lucky to fit the AIP on board.
Thats what they said about the Scorpene which is smaller. Apparently hindustanians wanted the Scorpene because its design could house a reactor. Also i mentioned in THEORY.....actually fitting a Nuclear Reactor small enough into the Marlin could be a task....but not entirely impossible.

I must say though that i am a little surprised about the dimensions of the Marlin...i was hoping it would be in the 4000 ton class like the Spanish S-80 and the Barracuda.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
I must say though that i am a little surprised about the dimensions of the Marlin...i was hoping it would be in the 4000 ton class like the Spanish S-80 and the Barracuda.
I remember that the Indian ATV project called for nuke reactor in a 4,000 ton hull, that failed also. I doubt Pakistan has the kind of resources to dump into a project like that. Also India has Russian cooperation and a lend lease on a nuke. Pakistan is at odds with Russia over her helping India and the US won't help with that project.
 

SATAN

New Member
I remember that the Indian ATV project called for nuke reactor in a 4,000 ton hull, that failed also. I doubt Pakistan has the kind of resources to dump into a project like that. Also India has Russian cooperation and a lend lease on a nuke. Pakistan is at odds with Russia over her helping India and the US won't help with that project.

LOL....indiaa has Russian cooperation and a lend lease on a nuke???

The ATV project called for nuke reactor in a 4000 ton hull that failed also??

:eek:nfloorl: BigE.........you seriously need to use google or better yet educate yourself first if you are goin to discuss Defense and Strategic issues. I am NOT going to respond to your other "Gems of Wisdom "that you have wonderfully posted on other threads even if they dont concern you.

:D
 

Big-E

Banned Member
LOL....indiaa has Russian cooperation and a lend lease on a nuke???

The ATV project called for nuke reactor in a 4000 ton hull that failed also??

:eek:nfloorl: BigE.........you seriously need to use google or better yet educate yourself first if you are goin to discuss Defense and Strategic issues. I am NOT going to respond to your other "Gems of Wisdom "that you have wonderfully posted on other threads even if they dont concern you.

:D
So India isn't leasing an Akula?

http://english.people.com.cn/200202/07/eng20020207_90110.shtml

So ATV didn't call for a nuke reactor in a 4,000 ton hull?

"The Indian nuclear powered attack submarine design is said to have a 4,000-ton displacement and a single-shaft nuclear power plant of Indian origin."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/atv.htm

If they were so succesful puttng in the reactor why isn't ATV completed and the purchase of 6 Scorpenes necessary?

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/2817.aspx

I think you just come here to flame... I know you are not that ignorant of military affairs.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
So India isn't leasing an Akula?

http://english.people.com.cn/200202/07/eng20020207_90110.shtml

So ATV didn't call for a nuke reactor in a 4,000 ton hull?

"The Indian nuclear powered attack submarine design is said to have a 4,000-ton displacement and a single-shaft nuclear power plant of Indian origin."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/atv.htm

If they were so succesful puttng in the reactor why isn't ATV completed and the purchase of 6 Scorpenes necessary?

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/2817.aspx

I think you just come here to flame... I know you are not that ignorant of military affairs.
a while back, Gary posted something on strategypage forum about Akula not getting leased to India. I'm not sure if there is any updates on that.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
a while back, Gary posted something on strategypage forum about Akula not getting leased to India. I'm not sure if there is any updates on that.
The submarine will be completed in 2007 and come down with the Gorshkov, it was all part of the same deal. There is an Indian submarine training center in Sosnovy Bor near St. Petersburg that is currently training Indian sailors to operate the vessel.

http://www.bellona.org/english_import_area/international/russia/nuke-weapons/nonproliferation/39412
 

SATAN

New Member
Also India has Russian cooperation and a lend lease on a nuke.
But what the heck is a "lend lease on a nuke?" Is it a Nuclear weapon Russia lent india to lease? Dont they have their own?

I dont see the word Akula being mentioned anywhere in your previous postings. I do know that hindustan is getting 2 decommisoned Akula class SSBN boats in 2007 on a 10 year lease.

:nutkick
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #338
And let us not forget this thread is NOT abt Indian Navy or its Akulas.

Coming back to Pakistan Navy, I do not think that there is any interest to invest in a nuclear powered submarine at this stage or even in the next five years at least. Pakistan Navy is more interested in strengthening its surface fleet as well as building up a capability to first modify and then be able to launch naval version of Babur cruise missile with the possibility that it in-turn would be able to carry both the conventional and unconventional warheads.
 

kams

New Member
But what the heck is a "lend lease on a nuke?" Is it a Nuclear weapon Russia lent india to lease? Dont they have their own?

I dont see the word Akula being mentioned anywhere in your previous postings. I do know that hindustan is getting 2 decommisoned Akula class SSBN boats in 2007 on a 10 year lease.

:nutkick
Whats with the Hindustan stuff dude?

2 Akulas were not decommisioned, they were never finished to be commisioned.
 

SATAN

New Member
And let us not forget this thread is NOT abt Indian Navy or its Akulas.

Coming back to Pakistan Navy, I do not think that there is any interest to invest in a nuclear powered submarine at this stage or even in the next five years at least. Pakistan Navy is more interested in strengthening its surface fleet as well as building up a capability to first modify and then be able to launch naval version of Babur cruise missile with the possibility that it in-turn would be able to carry both the conventional and unconventional warheads.
Is the Marlin SSK going to be customised to fire the Babur Cruise Missile? I know that the German manufactured Dolphin SSKs can fire Cruise Missiles (popyes). What happens with the Naval Babur if Pakistan goes for the U-214?
 
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