French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes

[Waylander]

What else can I do?

The Oste class is the only intelligence vesse l we have!
The ship was identified by class, name and hull number by us and by the Israelis! (A50 Alster, Oste class (423))
For sure there are other ships out there of us with a FFG and three FACs being the only ones with weapons to threat Israeli fighters.
The photos might be from one of these ships but they were not involved in the mentioned incident.
It is not like the IAF has no opportunities to photograph our ships.

I gave you the facts. I can do nothing more.
It was the Alster. She is unarmed. She has no opportunity to start or land helicopters. It is the only intelligence vessel in german service. The incident is on tape and has been shown to Israel. Israel apologized for this incident and changed their first version.
Her identification is comfirmed by our MoD and by Israel.

 

[eckherl]

Why does Germany have a intel ship in that area for, Are they tracking what Hezzbolah is smuggling back into Lebanon, or are they keeping track of IDF movements.

 

[Waylander]

The "Alster" was there under command of Operation Enduring Freedom and so was known and reported to the Israelis.
By the time the incident happened she supported the UNIFIL flottilla with their equipment.
And I would not call 50miles off the coast of Israel as very close to Israel.

 

[Patzek]

I am not trying to be bias here, but with so many "coincidences" (or "accidents" if you prefer), it just seems a bit too frequent? And we can't question these incidents?

Many in this thread have the same questions : If the israeli arm forces are as professional and as competents as you said you are, why are there so many incidents? It just seems contradictory to what you said. (Unless it is intentional)


In the end, 1,191 Lebanese civilians were killed and 4,409 injured, the Lebanese infrastructures are crippled. (1 million and more are displaced and more are suffering) - compare this to the Israeli side, 44 civilians were killed and approximately 1,350 injured. The highly trained, professional israeli arm forces armed with precision strike weapon have cause 10 TIMES MORE civlian causulties than the incompetent, low-tech Hezbollah force.

Is it a wonder that the people in the west are not seeing the same as you?

Didn't the US had dozens of incidents when they entered Iraq?
Sure they did, and you can't say the US army isn't a professional army.
But when you fight guerilla you will always have problem. And you cant avoid mistakes.
From more than 4000 sorties of F-16 and F-15, maybe 5 of them had a problem identifying their targets. Those odds are good, and I hope they will stay that way and wont get worse.

Hizballah didn't managed to kill more than 40 civilians because 1 reason -
Their weapons suck.
Hizballah doesn't have the abillity to guide their rockets, we do.
Its not like Hizballah didn't launched any.
4000 rockets were launched by Hizballah. 1000 of them on 1 city alone.
The only reason people didn't died in there is because they left the city, or hided in their shelters.

 

[eckherl]

Is the intel ship still there to cover additional follow on forces.

 

[Waylander]

I think yes but I am not sure. Im looking for it.

 

[Patzek]

well..

I highly doubt the vessel is there to spy on the IDF, our systems are build in a way that no one from the out side will be able to hack into them..

I don't think any outsider will be able to get anything beyond the border patrol, but this is also something I guess..

Actually I really hope the IDF will start co operating with UNIFIL, cause we all know they're not leaving anytime soon.
Maybe co operating with them will give us more than going againts them.. who knows ;]...

 

[radiosilence]

So what do you suggest that everyone should do about this at the present moment.

its up to the individual countries whose troops are threaten by the idf actions to decide what course of action they should take.

 

[eckherl]

its up to the individual countries whose troops are threaten by the idf actions to decide what course of action they should take.

Individual? I thought this was a unified UN effort.

 

[radiosilence]

Individual? I thought this was a unified UN effort.

its up to them to take up the matter as they please.

 

[eckherl]

its up to them to take up the matter as they please.

Does that include all out war.

 

[radiosilence]

Does that include all out war.

its up to them to take up the matter as they please.

what part of the above statement don't you understand?

 

[eckherl]

what part of the above statement don't you understand?

Thank you for your opinion into this matter.

 

[radiosilence]

Thank you for your opinion into this matter.

anytime for you.

 

[eckherl]

well..

I highly doubt the vessel is there to spy on the IDF, our systems are build in a way that no one from the out side will be able to hack into them..

I don't think any outsider will be able to get anything beyond the border patrol, but this is also something I guess..

Actually I really hope the IDF will start co operating with UNIFIL, cause we all know they're not leaving anytime soon.
Maybe co operating with them will give us more than going againts them.. who knows ;]...

Hey Patzek - question for you, is it true that the average age for combat pilots in the IDF during the late sixties and up to the mid seventies was around 20 years old. And what is the average age of a combat pilot during the present time.

 

[.pt]

Well we´ll hope that these accidents, or whatever, will stop. Future will tell.
And good luck to the IAF and all of Israel´s armed forces in their fight is my personal opinion. As long as Israel military forces and operations do not atack or threaten UNIFI and it´s European contigent, it ´s fine by me.
This because, in the end i don ´t really believe UNIFIL will acomplish much, altough i sincerely hope it does, for both israel and lebanon sake.
Patzek, on a purely technical question, if your a/c was iluminated (aparently it could not have been, not from that vessel), with radar, the defense suit automatically ejected flares, without jamming the radar emitter, or it does both at the same time to cover all possibilities. also, if the aircraft was not very close to the vessel, how could these flares be confused with cannon fire?
.pt

 

[Patzek]

Hey Patzek - question for you, is it true that the average age for combat pilots in the IDF during the late sixties and up to the mid seventies was around 20 years old. And what is the average age of a combat pilot during the present time.

Thats a good question.

About the late sixties its correct, the average age of the pilots who bombed the Egyptian airforce in 1967 was 20.
During the present time its hard to tell, but i'll guess its about 30-34, even that I really couldn't know the specific age.

 

[Patzek]

Well we´ll hope that these accidents, or whatever, will stop. Future will tell.
And good luck to the IAF and all of Israel´s armed forces in their fight is my personal opinion. As long as Israel military forces and operations do not atack or threaten UNIFI and it´s European contigent, it ´s fine by me.
This because, in the end i don ´t really believe UNIFIL will acomplish much, altough i sincerely hope it does, for both israel and lebanon sake.
Patzek, on a purely technical question, if your a/c was iluminated (aparently it could not have been, not from that vessel), with radar, the defense suit automatically ejected flares, without jamming the radar emitter, or it does both at the same time to cover all possibilities. also, if the aircraft was not very close to the vessel, how could these flares be confused with cannon fire?
.pt

First of all, I want to make it clear, I'm not an F-16 pilot, if you got confused.
I'm purely UAV operator and I have no connection whatsoever to the F-16.

But as I'm pretty much know the F-16 I can tell you.

First of all, saying the F-16 wasn't illuminated by the ship because it couldn't have is just not true.
The vessel DID tried to lock on the F-16, and it was the same vessel as I mentiouned in my few last posts.

I really don't care what the media says, or what the information that you got from public sites tells you, seriously, I saw it on live, telling me the ship didn't had a helicopter pad is just a waste of time. seriously, I saw it.

The F-16D systems ( which was involved in the incidents ) works exacly as you thought it is.
When the aircraft's sensors detecting a radar source, no matter whether it locked or not, they immedietly releases flares and the counter-measures starts working.
The Electronic Warfare Suites ( or counter-measures systems, both names refers to the same systems ) inside the F-16D of the IAF are very advanced, as opposed to the F-16A\B that was upgraded about a decade ago, in the F-16C\D the systems are highly advanced, which was upgraded by Israeli companies not long ago.

So yes, the aircraft does both thing at the same time, I assume the pilots didn't had any connection to it either.

About your question how it could be confused with flares..
We both knows flares can seem very identical to a missile or a rocket if un-trained man sees it.
We don't know who got confused with it and why, but I can assure you that no F-16 shot anything.

The most stupid thing that I don't get, is what the hell does the F-16 can shoot that they thought we shot something? 20mm ammunition? what? they couldn't know if we shot 20mm ammunition, so I really don't understand that. What kind of weapon the F-16 can use from such distance...

 

[Grand Danois]

Two incidents involving German ships.

• The helo incident involving a frigate which can lock on to a F-16 as it has the illuminators to do so. This is the one you saw.
  
  
• The incident with the Alster which is a ELINT/SIGINT ship. The Alster is, besides small arms, unarmed.

 

[Waylander]

I could not explain it better or more precisely than you did.

@Patzek
Do you think our ELINT shipcrew is not able to differ between flares and salvos? Those men are not civilian fun sailors but professional naval soldiers.
To talk of them as untrained men is a little bit weird.

And why should the "Alster" not know that the F-16 fired the 20mm Vulcan while they overflown the ship?
You can see the smoke of the gun or the light of the bullets (I cannot remember the english name for ammo which lights up after being fired normally used in MGs. Native speakers?).
This is a Navy ELINT ship. It is not like they just use their 5$ Walmart glasses for observation.