French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes

[Patzek]

Yes, I understand that.

And seriously, I have no idea why the pilots were told to do such training againts UNIFIL positions. It is really not clear to me and to my friends in our squad. Not that we have a direct connection to them, but most of the flight over Lebanon are coming from the base i'm serving at.

I'm sure they have their reasons, whether they publish it or not.. But it can hurt us more than give us anything...

But I'll tell you this -

No one in here gives any damn about UNIFIL.
We just doesn't treat them, they aren't there for us.
Whether its wise or not, I don't know, but if there's 1 thing we wont compromise on, It's other countries coming to our region and telling us what to do.
For once in our life time, Israel is no longer the tiny weak state that can barely handle its wars, we have an amazing army with worldwide capabillities and technologies, and we seriously doesn't really count anyone.
Not France, Italy, Spain, or Germany, will tell us how to fight our wars, and they wont stand in our way to fight those who wants us gone.

And I know... I know... Entire europe is stronger than Israel and can kill us all rubish rubish.
This is how kids speak, wars doesn't go that way. Politics doesn't work like that.
Worst case scenario, France will once again surrender and get back to France and will let us " kill each other ", cause we all know they will never start a war againts Israel because THEY tried to interfere in our war.
No country is stupid enough to loose thousands of soldiers and waste BILLIONS because 10 soldiers died when tried to stop other country from attacking other country. think how stupid it will be.
What will France get from starting a war againts Israel? ABSOLUTELY nothing. Revenge? give me a break. this is just childish, and in real world no one act like that.

So French soldiers will shoot down Israeli F-16, 30 seconds later, MLRS missile hit them and kill them all. What will happen then?
The 13 Leclerc's tanks France got in Lebanon will start a northern front againts Israel? RAFAEL's will try to bomb Israel's military bases? France will send thousands of soldiers, aircrafts and tanks to fight Israel? for what?!
Think about how stupid it is damnit.. think like mature people and not like kids.

 

[wittmanace]

i think you underestimate the repurcussions....israel, whatever isrealis may wish to believe, needs external support, and always has. what happens if the isrealis go anti european? the palestinian govt thats being reformed may no longer be sanctioned, israel will have much greater pressure on her internationally, arms sales will drop when these arms are used against europeans in the un, and it only adds to your opponent's advantage. during the last war in lebanon, i wa sin norway. prominent and influential people there were calling for arms sales to israel to stop and it was suggested that norway sell arms to the palestinians.....so imagine what would happen if it were the un forces that were targeted? israel is dependent on external support, like all other states, though israel more than most. france may also be liable to do greater arms deals with israels future enemies in the region...

nationalism aside, you must be see that this attitude to the un will cost israel, even if there is no war as a result of it. the repurcussions, even if only political, do have ramifications for israel. the PR is also vital, as the last war showed, in addittion to the current war between the west and islamic fundamentalists. the PR move of attacking the un for any reason would be a major blunder for ANYONE...any nation...

 

[eckherl]

Quite Frankly - could it be that the French are over reacting?, I find it hard to believe that Isreal is practicing bombing runs on UNIFIL, what would be the purpose of this. I do hope for Frances sake that they do not shoot down an IDF aircraft because they have itchy fingers, The U.S and France asked Isreal to leave and give the United Nations a chance to clear things up, that goes both ways here, UNIFIL needs to make sure that the tyrants in lebanon toe the mark also instead of giving lip service to the world that Isreal is being too aggressive.

 

[radiosilence]

Quite Frankly - could it be that the French are over reacting?, I find it hard to believe that Isreal is practicing bombing runs on UNIFIL,

whats so hard to believe? the israeli airforce ran full simulated attack runs on a german ship part of the unifil mission to lebanon only a month ago. they bombed a un position during the last conflict in lebanon killing 4 un troops.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5427

 

[Patzek]

whats so hard to believe? the israeli airforce ran full simulated attack runs on a german ship part of the unifil mission to lebanon only a month ago. they bombed a un position during the last conflict in lebanon killing 4 un troops.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5427

False.

The case with the German ship was never about " simulated " attack. It was about the German ship who didn't reported on a helicopter taking off from the ship, and was suspected to be Hizballah's UAV.
What that happened later was just because the German ship tried to lock on the F-16 and the aircraft's Electronic Warfare suites just jammed their systems automaticlly, and this is what the Germans reported that happened, only that they didn't understand that it was a direct response to their systems ( automaticlly systems as well ) that tried to lock on the aircrafts.

It was just a misunderstanding, that the media turned to a bear. thats all.


The bombing of the UN post was just a very sad mistake.
Since the F-16 who bombed their position came from my base, and I know the pilots who bombed it, I can trully say that it was just a very sad mistake.
No one in here had, have, or will have any intentions of bombing UN soldiers. We consider them to be our allies and friends, it was just a bad mistake.
We're only human after all.

 

[eckherl]

False.

The case with the German ship was never about " simulated " attack. It was about the German ship who didn't reported on a helicopter taking off from the ship, and was suspected to be Hizballah's UAV.
What that happened later was just because the German ship tried to lock on the F-16 and the aircraft's Electronic Warfare suites just jammed their systems automaticlly, and this is what the Germans reported that happened, only that they didn't understand that it was a direct response to their systems ( automaticlly systems as well ) that tried to lock on the aircrafts.

It was just a misunderstanding, that the media turned to a bear. thats all.


The bombing of the UN post was just a very sad mistake.
Since the F-16 who bombed their position came from my base, and I know the pilots who bombed it, I can trully say that it was just a very sad mistake.
No one in here had, have, or will have any intentions of bombing UN soldiers. We consider them to be our allies and friends, it was just a bad mistake.
We're only human after all.

Thank you for the explanation - sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[radiosilence]

False.

The case with the German ship was never about " simulated " attack. It was about the German ship who didn't reported on a helicopter taking off from the ship, and was suspected to be Hizballah's UAV.
What that happened later was just because the German ship tried to lock on the F-16 and the aircraft's Electronic Warfare suites just jammed their systems automaticlly, and this is what the Germans reported that happened, only that they didn't understand that it was a direct response to their systems ( automaticlly systems as well ) that tried to lock on the aircrafts.

It was just a misunderstanding, that the media turned to a bear. thats all.


The bombing of the UN post was just a very sad mistake.
Since the F-16 who bombed their position came from my base, and I know the pilots who bombed it, I can trully say that it was just a very sad mistake.
No one in here had, have, or will have any intentions of bombing UN soldiers. We consider them to be our allies and friends, it was just a bad mistake.
We're only human after all.

Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defence minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

many have claimed that bombing of un troops in lebanon was not a mistake.





http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5427

 

[Grand Danois]

There has been several incidents. The one with the helo was only one. There is some confusion as to two cannon bursts or two flares were fired.

 

[swerve]

...
The case with the German ship was never about " simulated " attack. It was about the German ship who didn't reported on a helicopter taking off from the ship, and was suspected to be Hizballah's UAV. ...

Nonsense! The ship was clearly identified as German, was known to the Israelis, & was in international waters, well away from the coast of Israel. It had no reason to report the movements of its helicopter to Israel.

 

[swerve]

The bombing of the UN post was just a very sad mistake.
Since the F-16 who bombed their position came from my base, and I know the pilots who bombed it, I can trully say that it was just a very sad mistake.
No one in here had, have, or will have any intentions of bombing UN soldiers. We consider them to be our allies and friends, it was just a bad mistake.
We're only human after all.

Impossible to believe that was a mistake, after hours of shelling, & several calls from the UN post to the Israeli army reminding them who they were shelling. That UN post was known to the IDF: they had had its exact location plotted from the day it was built. Bombing it so precisely, "by mistake", sounds like a USS Liberty kind of mistake.

 

[wittmanace]

afte a certain number of mistakes it actually becomes a pattern of behaviour...after this many incidents it doent seem cynical to believe that thes are not accidents at all. it just doesnt seem credible anymore that these incredibly bizarre events occur just as accidents.

 

[eckherl]

Impossible to believe that was a mistake, after hours of shelling, & several calls from the UN post to the Israeli army reminding them who they were shelling. That UN post was known to the IDF: they had had its exact location plotted from the day it was built. Bombing it so precisely, "by mistake", sounds like a USS Liberty kind of mistake.

And how do you know this, that is not the way that I heard happened, Hezzbola forces were in that area of operations, they got hit from stray ordanace.

 

[wittmanace]

his toyhtquoe kofi nnn, clearly he must have been briefed before he commented publicly:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

note it also says they were shelled 14 times earlier...

"A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble. "

note it is a statement he gave, not an off the cuff remark..

and here from
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_accused,_"ignored"_UN_bomb_warnings

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN Observer post in southern Lebanon," Mr Annan said in a statement from Rome.

"An Israeli bombardment killed four United Nations Observers, despite multiple warnings by UN peacekeeper. The peacekeepers at the post said the area within a kilometer of the post was hit with precision munitions, including 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells, four of which directly hit the UN observation post. The fatal strike with a "precision-guided weapon" according to UN military personnel hit the post at about 7.20pm. The victims were Austrian, Canadian, Chinese and Finnish UN-observers.

The Irish foreign ministry said that Israel ignored repeated warnings from Lieutenant-Colonel John Molloy, a key UN liaising officer, that its bombs were falling close to United Nations observers in southern Lebanon. The warnings came allegedly before an Israeli bomb killed four of the U.N. observers. "On six separate occasions he [Lieutenant-Colonel John Molloy] was in contact with the Israelis to warn them that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff in South Lebanon". "He warned: 'You have to address this problem or lives may be lost'," an Irish foreign affairs spokesman said.

Suzanne Coogan, a spokeswoman for the Irish Defence Minister Willie O'Dea said Molloy "warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed and stark." She concluded, "Obviously those warnings went unheeded."

Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said "Evidence that we have would suggest that this was either an incredible accident or else was in some way directly targeted".

In 1996 over 100 civilians were killed by the Israeli bombing of a UN compound in Lebanon in an incident known as the Qana shelling."

from msn news:

The bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

note direct hit...

 

[eckherl]

his toyhtquoe kofi nnn, clearly he must have been briefed before he commented publicly:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

note it also says they were shelled 14 times earlier...

"A rescue team was also shelled as it tried to clear the rubble. "

note it is a statement he gave, not an off the cuff remark..

and here from
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Israel_accused,_"ignored"_UN_bomb_warnings

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN Observer post in southern Lebanon," Mr Annan said in a statement from Rome.

"An Israeli bombardment killed four United Nations Observers, despite multiple warnings by UN peacekeeper. The peacekeepers at the post said the area within a kilometer of the post was hit with precision munitions, including 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells, four of which directly hit the UN observation post. The fatal strike with a "precision-guided weapon" according to UN military personnel hit the post at about 7.20pm. The victims were Austrian, Canadian, Chinese and Finnish UN-observers.

The Irish foreign ministry said that Israel ignored repeated warnings from Lieutenant-Colonel John Molloy, a key UN liaising officer, that its bombs were falling close to United Nations observers in southern Lebanon. The warnings came allegedly before an Israeli bomb killed four of the U.N. observers. "On six separate occasions he [Lieutenant-Colonel John Molloy] was in contact with the Israelis to warn them that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff in South Lebanon". "He warned: 'You have to address this problem or lives may be lost'," an Irish foreign affairs spokesman said.

Suzanne Coogan, a spokeswoman for the Irish Defence Minister Willie O'Dea said Molloy "warned the Israelis that they were shelling in very close proximity to the post, and his warnings were very specific, explicit, detailed and stark." She concluded, "Obviously those warnings went unheeded."

Irish Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said "Evidence that we have would suggest that this was either an incredible accident or else was in some way directly targeted".

In 1996 over 100 civilians were killed by the Israeli bombing of a UN compound in Lebanon in an incident known as the Qana shelling."

from msn news:

The bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

note direct hit...

Thats what I figured Kofi Anan now thats a reliable source matched up with BBC broadcast. This proves nothing.

 

[wittmanace]

i suppose th irish defence ministry is alos paranoid. its clearly not fiction theyre making up here...cross reference all the sources and they say the same thing....all these incidents are accidents and misunderstandings you think, even after the quotes i provided?

 

[Grand Danois]

I know Wiki can suck. But just as a primer... Overview of what incidents have occurred.

Incidents involving Israeli planes

On the 3 October 2006, an Israeli fighter penetrated the 2-nautical mile defence perimeter of the French firgate Courbet, triggering a diplomatic incident. Israel apologised after official protests from the French government [8] [9].

On the 24 October 2006, a helicopter took off from a German frigate involved in the monitoring of Lebanon on behalf of the UN, and failed to exchange recognition signals with Isreali authorities. The helicopter was intercepted by Israeli fighters and forced back onto the ship [10] .

Two days later, Israeli planes flew over an unarmed intelligence ship of the German Navy, the Alster [11], stirring an international incident [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]. German authorities declared that the planes have fired shots at the ship and evaded launching flares. The Israeli, though denying that firing had occurred, acknowledged the incident and declared that no aggression was meant. Diplomatic activity resulted in a settlement, though none of the parties backed from its position.

On the 8th November 2006, French Minister of Defence Michèle Alliot-Marie declared that Israeli F-15 fighters had made mock attacks on French-manned UNIFIL positions ; "two seconds more, and firing would have occurred against the planes which directly threatened our forces". The incident, which occurred on the 31st of October, stirred a diplomatic incident, the Isreali ambassador in Paris being convoqued the next day for explanations ; he declared that the manoeuvers were "not aggressive" and that the French had "misunderstood" the intentions of the planes. A few hours before, the IDF had denied any knowledge of such an incident. A French officer declared that the Israeli fighter had "engaged in a mock attack. Thanksfully, our men kept their head cool and understood that it was a provocation of the Israeli army". [17] [18] [19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unifil#Incidents_involving_Israeli_planes

How hard can it be to spell Israel properly!

 

[wittmanace]

see, but saying wiki can be unreliable is one thing, say all the outlets suck (eg bbc) and that kofi annan is a poor source, and dismissing quoted officers and foreing ministry spokesmen is simply ignoring facts...its different from saying that wiki can be unreliable...no?

 

[radiosilence]

Thats what I figured Kofi Anan now thats a reliable source matched up with BBC broadcast. This proves nothing.

kofi anan is a lot more reliable than you, concerning what happen to the un troops in lebanon . i am sure you are going to come up the same old charges how he and everyone else who report different from the israeli line is biased.

 

[eckherl]

i suppose th irish defence ministry is alos paranoid. its clearly not fiction theyre making up here...cross reference all the sources and they say the same thing....all these incidents are accidents and misunderstandings you think, even after the quotes i provided?

So it looks like Isreal just has it out for everyone. Did he say for sure that he knew Isreal was deliberatly trying to bomb UN forces. For Petes sake there was a major armed conflict that was going on around that outpost, the IDF would kick Hezzbolah out of that area and they would come back as soon as IDF would leave that area. This is what happens when you send in a peacekeeping force that doesn`t have a clear mission, you turn them into sitting ducks which sucks. If Isreal is doing this on purpose then they need to be held accountable for their actions, lets hope that Isreal and France have ironed out their communication channels and that this doesn`t have the potential of happening again for the sake of everybody.

 

[eckherl]

kofi anan is a lot more reliable than you, concerning what happen to the un troops in lebanon . i am sure you are going to come up the same old charges how he and everyone else who report different from the israeli line is biased.

Yea - his corrupt record shows this doesn`t it, and as far as I am concerned I don`t give two shits to wind on how reliable you think I am.