French authorize troops to shoot down threatening Israeli planes

[Waylander]

Nobody likes it if somebody is able to listen to nearly all your emissions.

I don't think you lie by intention. But some of your facts are just no facts.

The official german government statement says that the F-16 used flares and fired two salvos/shots. They also say that they got it on tape and showed this to Israel. They accepted it and said that this is not going to happen again.
This is not from newspapers but from the MoD.

And about the ship. Do you want the data of the Oste class and a picture?

First the picture:
http://www.geocities.com/~uwezi/bilder/images/ships/alster_oste_kiel.jpg

Data:

Length: 83.5m
Beam: 14.6m
Draft: 4.2m
Displacement: 3200t
Propulsion: 2 diesel-engines, 3300kW each
Speed: 21kts
Range: more than 500nm
Armament: none
Equippement: ELINT/COMINT sensors, electronic countermeasures
Complement: 36 + up to 40 mission specialists

They are just not able to light anything up or to start a helicopter. End.

 

[wittmanace]

it is getting to the point now where its just ridiculous...that israel has NEVER attacked the un on purpouse, that it NEVER would, that they have NEVER killed civilians or europeans on purpouse...if we look at this from a neutral point of view...its absurd. i understand the frustration, but the hyperbole used here is simply an indicator that nationalism overtakes fact....as an example, im going to look for footage i saw recently of merkavas firing at civilians running in beit hanoun...

not as a judgement but to show once and for all that you are confusing fact with wishful thinking patzek...i understand the frustration, but arguing along this vein and ignoring FACTS doesnt help change anything.

you asked "why do you think we have a problem with these vessels?" well, the fact that you stage mock attacks against them was the first clue...
i think the argument that these are not mistakes has been made and supported well, and the argument that they are accidents has not had any evidence to support it.

 

[Grand Danois]

I suggest we discuss the issue of UNIFIL and not draw in data and opinions not directly related to it.

 

[wittmanace]

to a certain extent i agree. id suggest that here we are capable of a conversation without involving anyhting other than facts related to this debate. my point is purely that this is not a sterilized issue where we have saints involved. my point is purely that this is real life conflict and it includes all the realities therein, which means wishful thinking, such as notions of a state not flexing its muscle against the un doesnt occur, or that all the nations involved are simply having a misunderstanding and so forth, are a real misrepresentation of reality. the complete dismissal of fact is in no way irrelevant to the real issue. as such we cant just ignore the un as biased entirely, german dod reports as false, irish foreign ministry reports as false and french government reports as false.

does anyone know which news sources carried the story of french forces' permission to fire if threatened? i cant find it on bbc..

 

[contedicavour]

To Patzek : what about the French ship, the Courbet FFG, that was the object of a simulated attack ?
Another pilot that got inaccurate information ??

Regarding the German ship, even supposing the ship was armed and had a helo, so what ? Does that give the IDF plane a good reason to approach it aggressively ? What did the pilot fear from a NATO ship ??

It may all be a big misunderstanding as you say, but you may understand we remain sceptical though we do believe that Israel in itself has no warring intentions towards unifil and european troops, it's not what soldiers and sailors see on the field. The IDF are overdoing it in trying to show who rules in the area ? Probably. Still be careful.

cheers

 

[Patzek]

Waylander, This is just not true.
This is not the ship that was involved.

Damnit I saw real time footage of the ship and the helicopter from Israeli UAV's on the screens of my friends and you're telling me they were video-taping the wrong ship?
Its just can't be the same ship, I don't know what was the model of the ship since its none of my bussiness to know, but this is not it.


You can think about Israel whatever you want. You don't know us.
You don't know they way we think, as you said, you see it as neutrals and don't understand that we're the good guys here and you should see it from our point of view.
This is insulting to see people from France and Germany and from friendly countries in general who think we're attacking both civilians and allies soldiers on purpose.
The IDF sucked at the last Lebanon war only, and ONLY because we were too damn careful not to hit civilians. Don't see it from european civilians pov, but from a military pov that we needed to find those militants hiding between civilians building and to take them down 1 by 1!
I've been operational 12 hours a day during this 34 days of the war, sometimes I yelled from the frustration when I didn't managed to find any Hizballah's, and I wasn't allowed to attack building which we knew belongs to Hizballah, and F-16 wasn't there.
I saw them launching rockets from inside a 12 stories building ( 9th floor if it matter ) and I just WASN'T allowed to attack them because CIVILIANS might be inside.

We all put so much effort on trying to find them and to attack them directly, and in the end 1300 civilians died.

Maybe for 1 second you try and see it from our point of view how its like to fight a guerilla organization who hide behind kids and women and in the end you're the one to blame for killing them!? because you tried to stop them from killing your country's people?!

You have just no idea how careful we tried to be with everything have to do with not killing civilians, and you have no idea how its like to watch the screen and see a buildig inside Bint Jbeil and see those rockets fly from it to my country and you just can't do a damn thing because you're not allowed to, god knows why.
To think civilians were still inside a building while rockets are flying from it is just ridicolois, and if it was up to me I could've hit only the storey where the rockets were, but still, I wasn't allowed.

For 1 second try to understand how hard it is, and maybe, just maybe, you'll see that we're the good guys here, and not the bad ones, who kill Lebanese civilians, poor Palestinians on purpose. This is NOT our goal, it was NEVER our goal. I don't know a single pilot, a single commander, or anyone else, that will give an order to shoot civilians, to bomb a UNIFIL post, to shoot a German ship, or ANYTHING like that.
We're not like that, and if you knew how Israelis behave you knew it by yourself.

 

[eckherl]

We should also take in consideration that we are facing a country that has just broken off a armed engagement with the enemy, these guys are going to be still flying around as if there is still the potential of being shot down. I would like to ask Big E on how he responds to his combat missions versus a training exercise. With the UN forces now pretty much set in place, hopefully we will not have any more issues or misunderstandings. This would absolutely suck to have innocent lives lost on both sides, meaning IDF and UN peacekeepers. I have worked with IDF armored officers at the U.S Armor Center at Fort Know in the past, they take everything that you go over with them very seriously, they act as if the next battle that they face tomorrow could be their last. What I am trying to say here is that we are facing a country that is constantly facing some form of hostility towards it, we can`t expect them to be calm over night, we have to show them that the UN is going to make a difference over there this time around for the sake of their people.

 

[dioditto]

But I'll tell you this -

No one in here gives any damn about UNIFIL.
We just doesn't treat them, they aren't there for us.
Whether its wise or not, I don't know, but if there's 1 thing we wont compromise on, It's other countries coming to our region and telling us what to do.
For once in our life time, Israel is no longer the tiny weak state that can barely handle its wars, we have an amazing army with worldwide capabillities and technologies, and we seriously doesn't really count anyone.
Not France, Italy, Spain, or Germany, will tell us how to fight our wars, and they wont stand in our way to fight those who wants us gone.

It's not your reasoning which is to protect yourself that's disturbing, It's your language that's highly disturbing.

So now, you have global strike capability (I presume you meant the hidden ICBM that Israel keep denying) and you seriously don't give a flip of what we think. I think you need to check-in with reality. Are you implying that Israel now have the capability to take on the world any time you want? I think this arrogance is very perverse, and dangerous to say the least. You are turning into the one who did you wrong 60 years ago.

Worst case scenario, France will once again surrender and get back to France and will let us " kill each other ", cause we all know they will never start a war againts Israel because THEY tried to interfere in our war.
No country is stupid enough to loose thousands of soldiers and waste BILLIONS because 10 soldiers died when tried to stop other country from attacking other country. think how stupid it will be.
What will France get from starting a war againts Israel? ABSOLUTELY nothing. Revenge? give me a break. this is just childish, and in real world no one act like that.

Ofcourse, the french are not stupid enough to start a war against Israel for the reason of revenge. But there are other many valid reasons for french or even Europeans interest that will cause the EU to engage the Israel. One, stablisation of the middle east. If Israel becomes an unreasonable aggressor, maybe using the anti-terror banner to invade other countries or destablise them, this may cause the EU or even countries outside EU to involve.

So French soldiers will shoot down Israeli F-16, 30 seconds later, MLRS missile hit them and kill them all. What will happen then?
The 13 Leclerc's tanks France got in Lebanon will start a northern front againts Israel? RAFAEL's will try to bomb Israel's military bases? France will send thousands of soldiers, aircrafts and tanks to fight Israel? for what?!
Think about how stupid it is damnit.. think like mature people and not like kids.

A country's reputation and image are also something worth protecting. If France is seen as weak in dealing with Israel, France's standing in international community will be severely diminished. Its credibility will be discredited. So, don't think the French will just surrender and withdrew. Last I check, the French destroyed the Ivorian airbase (most of the Ivorian's airforce) when Rioters attacked a French school and army base. Do you think by provoking the french, the french will let you get away with it? I could almost safely say, that if, IF such thing do happen, The french would probably do the same to the Israeli of what they did to the Ivory Coast.

 

[Patzek]

It's not your reason which is to protect yourself that's disturbing, It's your language that's highly disturbing.

So now, you have global strike capability (I presume you meant the hidden ICBM that Israel keep denying) and you seriously don't give a flip of what we think. I think you need to check-in with reality. Are you implying that Israel now have the capability to take on the world any time you want? I think this arrogance is very perverse, and dangerous to say the least. You are turning into the one who did you wrong 60 years ago.

This is not what I ment and by thinking that you only shows that you're biased from the beginning, and nothing i'll say can probably change your way of thinking.
The IDF's standards meets the standards of modern armies world wide, If you think I'm a kid that says " Europe can't do a damn thing cause we can nuke europe and get it over with ", you're wrong.
We give a 'flip' on what you think as long as it doesn't hurt our capabillities while defending our country.
As an IDF soldier, I know that every battle Israel is taking part in, can be our last if we will fail.
I never take anything for granted, but no European soldiers who coming here will tell me how to fight my wars and keep my country alive.

Ofcourse, the french are not stupid enough to start a war against Israel for the reason of revenge. But there are other many valid reasons for french or even Europeans interest that will cause the EU to engage the Israel. One, stablisation of the middle east. If Israel becomes an unreasonable aggressor, maybe using the anti-terror banner to invade other countries or destablise them, this may cause the EU or even countries outside EU to involve.

This is just ridicolous.
I wont even respond to such things. I'm spending here enough of my 4 days vacation to respond to childish claims like that.

A country's reputation and image are also something worth protecting. If France is seen as weak in dealing with Israel, France's standing in international community will be severely diminished. Its credibility will be discredited. So, don't think the French will just surrender and withdrew. Last I check, the French destroyed the Ivorian airbase (most of the Ivorian's airforce) when Rioters attacked a French school and army base. Do you think by provoking the french, the french will let you get away with it? I could almost safely say, that if, IF such thing do happen, The french would probably do the same to the Israeli of what they did to the Ivory Coast

Again, if you think France will attack Israel because we killed their soldiers who fired on our aircraft, you're delusional. And you have no idea on what you're talking about.

 

[swerve]

Waylander, This is just not true.
This is not the ship that was involved.

Damnit I saw real time footage of the ship and the helicopter from Israeli UAV's on the screens of my friends and you're telling me they were video-taping the wrong ship?
Its just can't be the same ship, I don't know what was the model of the ship since its none of my bussiness to know, but this is not it.

You've been told already there was more than one incident, & more than one ship. Three have been mentioned. Two German, one French. I suggest you go back & read the thread more carefully.

 

[wittmanace]

patzek, this is no attack on you or your country here....we are simply debating the issue of aggressive maneuvers against un forces..this is no anti israeli issue in general terms...please dont take it as such, we need to stick to the issue. as such the "were the good guys" is a non issue..this is a defense forum where we are discussing the military issue, not good or bad or evil or anything...simply the military reality and the political ramifications and issues involved..

 

[Patzek]

You've been told already there was more than one incident, & more than one ship. Three have been mentioned. Two German, one French. I suggest you go back & read the thread more carefully.

If there were indeed three incidents, two of were so pointless that they doesn't even worth mentiouning.

There're no major incidents which we in our squad doesn't hear about, the one I mentiouned with the German ship is known, I havn't heared on any other one.
I doesn't have the time listening to the news, if such incident wasn't important enough to get to our building in the base, and the media reported it, it means nothing really happened and the media turned it to be something huge.

 

[radiosilence]

Yes - he has capitalized in a big way due to his position, thats public knowledge.
Yes - he is very biased towards Israel.

a predictable response when someone don't tout the israeli line. many have said the same thing about jimmy carter who has promoted a just solution to the middle east conflict.

 

[eckherl]

a predictable response when someone don't tout the israeli line. many have said the same thing about jimmy carter who has promoted a just solution to the middle east conflict.

At least Jimmy Carter set the ground work for Israel and Egypt to make amends with each other.

 

[dioditto]

This is not what I ment and by thinking that you only shows that you're biased from the beginning, and nothing i'll say can probably change your way of thinking.
The IDF's standards meets the standards of modern armies world wide, If you think I'm a kid that says " Europe can't do a damn thing cause we can nuke europe and get it over with ", you're wrong.
We give a 'flip' on what you think as long as it doesn't hurt our capabillities while defending our country.
As an IDF soldier, I know that every battle Israel is taking part in, can be our last if we will fail.
I never take anything for granted, but no European soldiers who coming here will tell me how to fight my wars and keep my country alive.

I am biased?
You said it yourself..

"No one in here gives any damn about UNIFIL.We just doesn't treat them, they aren't there for us."

These sentences seems to me to be full of bias.
If I am not mistaken, you said the word "World-wide capability". If that is not an implied threat, I don't know what is.

This is just ridicolous.
I wont even respond to such things. I'm spending here enough of my 4 days vacation to respond to childish claims like that.

Just how old are you? 19? just fresh out of high school?? You are acting more like a teenager than I am to you. It is easy to call others childish and not bringing in any valid assertion and that act alone is childish itself.

Again, if you think France will attack Israel because we killed their soldiers who fired on our aircraft, you're delusional. And you have no idea on what you're talking about.

Again, speak for yourself.

 

[radiosilence]

At least Jimmy Carter set the ground work for Israel and Egypt to make amends with each other.

thats a known fact.

back to the topic we can look at intentions all we want but the point of the matter is the actions of israel doesn't match their intentions as some have claimed. they have been aggressive to un and unfil troops numerous times which shows a pattern of behavior.

 

[Patzek]

I am biased?
You said it yourself..



These sentences seems to me to be full of bias.
If I am not mistaken, you said the word "World-wide capability". If that is not an implied threat, I don't know what is.

It might be an implied threat if you see it as one.
I'm not denying the IDF have world wide capabillities when it comes to range. But this is not what I ment.

Just how old are you? 19? just fresh out of high school?? You are acting more like a teenager than I am to you. It is easy to call others childish and not bringing in any valid assertion and that act alone is childish itself.

I am almost 20 thats right.
But as an Israeli, I was drafted to the army in the age of 18 and accepted huge responsibillity that they needed me to take.
I'm not having fun doing what I do in the IDF, but I do it because this is my job, and I'm pretty sure you wont find many 19-year-old in the world with responsibillity we get in the IDF in that age.
My job is strictly to kill people. Doesn't matter if I know they're bad people, I don't wish for anyone to know how its like to know you took someone's life.
After all, i'm not much more than a teenager, And I know that. But you can't compare Israelis in the age of 19 to other 19 years old in the world that go to college.
When you get such responsibillity like we get in such young age, you have to grow up with it. And I'm pretty sure if you speaked with me in hebrew you'll see me much differently.

My English might not be perfect, I'm not expecting from myself to be fluent in my third language after leaving high school 2 years ago, and it might be the reason you think i'm speaking like a teenager. My language in Hebrew is high, and its harder for me to express myself in English in the way I want to.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that i'm an arrogance kid who think his army is invincible. This is not me, and I ask you not to treat me as one even if my way-of-speak isn't like a military analysts.

I do my best.

 

[eckherl]

thats a known fact.

back to the topic we can look at intentions all we want but the point of the matter is the actions of israel doesn't match their intentions as some have claimed. they have been aggressive to un and unfil troops numerous times which shows a pattern of behavior.

So what do you suggest that everyone should do about this at the present moment.

 

[dioditto]

Waylander, This is just not true.
This is not the ship that was involved.

Damnit I saw real time footage of the ship and the helicopter from Israeli UAV's on the screens of my friends and you're telling me they were video-taping the wrong ship?
Its just can't be the same ship, I don't know what was the model of the ship since its none of my bussiness to know, but this is not it.


You can think about Israel whatever you want. You don't know us.
You don't know they way we think, as you said, you see it as neutrals and don't understand that we're the good guys here and you should see it from our point of view.
This is insulting to see people from France and Germany and from friendly countries in general who think we're attacking both civilians and allies soldiers on purpose.
The IDF sucked at the last Lebanon war only, and ONLY because we were too damn careful not to hit civilians. Don't see it from european civilians pov, but from a military pov that we needed to find those militants hiding between civilians building and to take them down 1 by 1!
I've been operational 12 hours a day during this 34 days of the war, sometimes I yelled from the frustration when I didn't managed to find any Hizballah's, and I wasn't allowed to attack building which we knew belongs to Hizballah, and F-16 wasn't there.
I saw them launching rockets from inside a 12 stories building ( 9th floor if it matter ) and I just WASN'T allowed to attack them because CIVILIANS might be inside.

We all put so much effort on trying to find them and to attack them directly, and in the end 1300 civilians died.

Maybe for 1 second you try and see it from our point of view how its like to fight a guerilla organization who hide behind kids and women and in the end you're the one to blame for killing them!? because you tried to stop them from killing your country's people?!

You have just no idea how careful we tried to be with everything have to do with not killing civilians, and you have no idea how its like to watch the screen and see a buildig inside Bint Jbeil and see those rockets fly from it to my country and you just can't do a damn thing because you're not allowed to, god knows why.
To think civilians were still inside a building while rockets are flying from it is just ridicolois, and if it was up to me I could've hit only the storey where the rockets were, but still, I wasn't allowed.

For 1 second try to understand how hard it is, and maybe, just maybe, you'll see that we're the good guys here, and not the bad ones, who kill Lebanese civilians, poor Palestinians on purpose. This is NOT our goal, it was NEVER our goal. I don't know a single pilot, a single commander, or anyone else, that will give an order to shoot civilians, to bomb a UNIFIL post, to shoot a German ship, or ANYTHING like that.
We're not like that, and if you knew how Israelis behave you knew it by yourself.

I am not trying to be bias here, but with so many "coincidences" (or "accidents" if you prefer), it just seems a bit too frequent? And we can't question these incidents?

Many in this thread have the same questions : If the israeli arm forces are as professional and as competents as you said you are, why are there so many incidents? It just seems contradictory to what you said. (Unless it is intentional)


In the end, 1,191 Lebanese civilians were killed and 4,409 injured, the Lebanese infrastructures are crippled. (1 million and more are displaced and more are suffering) - compare this to the Israeli side, 44 civilians were killed and approximately 1,350 injured. The highly trained, professional israeli arm forces armed with precision strike weapon have cause 10 TIMES MORE civlian causulties than the incompetent, low-tech Hezbollah force.

Is it a wonder that the people in the west are not seeing the same as you?

 

[Grand Danois]

In the end, 1,191 Lebanese civilians were killed and 4,409 injured, the Lebanese infrastructures are crippled. (1 million and more are displaced and more are suffering) - compare this to the Israeli side, 44 civilians were killed and approximately 1,350 injured. The highly trained, professional israeli arm forces armed with precision strike weapon have cause 10 TIMES MORE civlian causulties than the incompetent, low-tech Hezbollah force.

Is it a wonder that the people in the west are not seeing the same as you?

Above draws an incorrect conclusion.

I think we have been over the casualty issue. It is primarily a function of firepower you can bring to bear, and much less of intent.