India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[powerslavenegi]

Read my last. The original input was provided by the Indian Military Attache to Australia. some 3 months later, C4ISR published an article hilight problems within the Indian Military/Indian Goct and DRDO in bringing some projects to fruition.

C4ISR is a highly respected military magazine - much much higher in credibility than Janes (for example).

None of my sources were Indian newspapers. I'm loathe to cite any information from general media as they invariably get it wrong. To use the Australian media as a stellar example of editorial incompetency - they typically refer to an FGG as a battleship, and have referred to Collins as an SSN (Pleasantly surprised at that little gem)

Or are you suggesting that the most senior ranking outposted Indian Officer in the Southern Hemisphere had no idea what he was talking about?

Are you sure he mentioned the Akash medium range SAM system ? Between I guess Indian officer in question might have talked about the sorry state of affairs of Indian defense set up but I dont think any one in India can categorically claim as to whether a project is gonna be shelved or not above news link is just another example.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Are you sure he mentioned the Akash medium range SAM system ? Between I guess Indian officer in question might have talked about the sorry state of affairs of Indian defense set up but I dont think any one in India can categorically claim as to whether a project is gonna be shelved or not above news link is just another example.

I distinctly remember a round table discussion (obviously unclass) where it was indicated that:

Trishul was to be axed.
Akash was suffering and required some extensive handling if it wasn't to suffer the same fate
Arjun was a project management disaster and that the tank would most likely end up as a reserve training element.

blame was sheeted home on:

DRDO management skills
"Fluid" technical requirements
Army not abiding by basic project management disciplines and thus compromising normal closed circuit performance cycles within the project proper
Indian Govt being oblivious of the true state of affairs as each party was blaming the other.

3 months later he was rotated home and was replaced by an ex Destroyer Captain within the IN (he is still present as the resident senior officer sans Mil Attache')

 

[powerslavenegi]

I distinctly remember a round table discussion (obviously unclass) where it was indicated that:
Trishul was to be axed.
Akash was suffering and required some extensive handling if it wasn't to suffer the same fate
)

Well may I know when this conference took place for I remember Akash had some issues relating to metallurgy in 2003,however were reported to have been resolved has been test fired successfully since twice in 2004 .

 

[gf0012-aust]

Well may I know when this conference took place for I remember Akash had some issues relating to metallurgy in 2003,however were reported to have been resolved has been test fired successfully since twice in 2004 .

Land Warfare Conference 2003. and Land Warfare Conference 2005

The discussions occurred because we were comparing notes on how MBT projects aren't always what the local press makes of them.

eg, Arjun and Australias proposed Leo upgrade. The Aust Leo upgrade interest was because Arjun is fundamentally a Leo legacy platform.

 

[kams]

gf0012-aust ,

Recently IAF Chief of Air Staff ACM S.P.Tyagi while announcing IAF's acquisition of SPYDER SR SAM from Israel, also mentioned that IAF is looking for medium range SAMs from abroad. So soon Aakash may become history.

PSNegi, One thing about local media, they may get lot of things wrong technically(SSK vs SSN ). But you have to keep in mind they may have access to sources that will normally not say a word on record, but use the media to convey their real feelings towards any particular system or issue. Its essential to read between the lines.

DRDO has defacto Veto power on issues relating to imports of defence systems. This has led to lot of bad blood between Armed Forces and DRDO. Armed forces allege that DRDO promises them the sky, but delivers very little or very late. DRDO alleges that Armed forces shift goal posts too often (if a project time line slips like what we have seen, goal post has to shift, otherwise you may end up with a T-55 clone instead of Arjun ).

As GF said project management is in short supply within DRDO. Indian Navy learnt its lesson and has started embedding its project managers within the DRDO team from the inception of project (ex- Naval LCA).

 

[dabrownguy]

DRDO is already marketing the Akash. Or atleast some components. They have a site.
http://www.akashsam.com/
Some one in the military, most likily the middlemen and taking bribes.

 

[kams]

DRDO is already marketing the Akash. Or atleast some components. They have a site.
http://www.akashsam.com/
Some one in the military, most likily the middlemen and taking bribes.

DABROWNGUY,

A request, please stop hurling blanket accusations on men and women who have put their lives on line so that me and you can sleep in peace with our family. These men deserve our respect (they may be from any country India, Pakistan, US, UK). There will always be some rotten apples, but please stop generalising.

May be you should look in to the report of Army's Vice Chief Lt Gen Pattabhiraman I posted above. Just a website by DRDO does not mean Aakash is operational. Did you read the latest news article by RN Ganesh? Here this. Do you expect IN to wait for Trishul? Similarly if Aakash was ready, I don't see any reason for IAF to start looking for newer systems from abroad. DRDO holds veto in all foreign acquisitions.

There are many things about DRDO and its past leaders (who basically screwed it up and now sitting pretty) which unfortunately can not be discussed in an open forum.

 

[aaaditya]

well the army chief seems to be a bit encouraging about the drdo.
anyway there are atleast some spin-offs from the arjun project,according to the army chief the existing t-72's are to be upgraded with modular turrets.the drdo managed to successfully mate the arjun's turret and the 120mm rifled gun with the t-72 platform and have named this project as the tank-ex.

here check out this link and article:
http://www.newkerala.com/news4.php?action=fullnews&id=37194

The Chief of Army Staff, General J.J.Singh said that there have been many successes in the projects handled by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for the Indian Army.

Addressing the media here today after the conclusion of the week-long Army Commanders Conference, General J.J.Singh calling the DRDO ventures a ?mixed bag of successes' that the Army has had, listed the Nishant UAV (Unmanned Aerial Vehicle), Pinaka and Nag anti-tank missiles, the Anamika missile carrier and the NBC (Nuclear Biological Chemical) equipment among the successful ventures of the DRDO. He pointed out that there have been failures also. But, he added, "The indigenous efforts of a scientist need to be encouraged to the extent possible."

General J. J. Singh said that in whichever venture the DRDO had competence, their expertise would be used, otherwise technology from outside shall be considered.

Rubbishing aside controversies related to defence deals affecting the [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]armed [COLOR=blue! important]forces[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR], Singh said that if the laid down procedures were followed then the requirements would be met without a problem.

Elaborating on the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), being built indigenously by the DRDO at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, Tamil Nadu, the Chief said that, "We've placed a demand for 124 tanks, which we hope to receive in two to three years time."

The project "Main Battle Tank, Arjun" (MBT), was sanctioned in May 1974. The project had its General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) finalisation in October 1985.

The T-72 tanks are also being upgraded with a modular turret.

General Singh said that the DRDO would asked to translate the successful information technology present in the private sector, into the military dimensions. The thrust was on utilisation of indigenous capability but tie-up with other countries for transfer of technology should be considered for joint research, development, exploitation and export, on the pattern of Brahmos missiles.

The Army Chief also said that violence levels in Jammu and Kashmir had fallen by 20 percent and that there was a proposal to suggest amendments in the Armed Forces Special Powers Act in the Northeast.

He said that earlier, in the north east operations were led by a Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO), but now they would be led by a Junior Commissioned Officer (JCO).

and here is an image of the tank-ex:

http://armyreco.ifrance.com/asie/in...ia/pictures/tank_ex_defexpo_2004_india_01.jpg

 

[ever4244]

I was told recent that Arjun was refused by india land force, and the project was droped finally, i heard that india defence department support Arjun, but landforce reject it for its inconsistent price and performence .up to now Arjun has 40% parts needs import, and over-wight for nealy all indian s bridge and road . So the india decided to drop Arjun 1 programme and try to develope Arjun 2 which is more practical and can be produced most domesticly.
All of above I can not comfirm , so is there anyone who know about it to tell me whether the news is true or false .

 

[eckherl]

I was told recent that Arjun was refused by india land force, and the project was droped finally, i heard that india defence department support Arjun, but landforce reject it for its inconsistent price and performence .up to now Arjun has 40% parts needs import, and over-wight for nealy all indian s bridge and road . So the india decided to drop Arjun 1 programme and try to develope Arjun 2 which is more practical and can be produced most domesticly.
All of above I can not comfirm , so is there anyone who know about it to tell me whether the news is true or false .

It is true - don`t expect much on the Arjun 2 either, they will settle for the T-90`s.

 

[aaaditya]

It is true - don`t expect much on the Arjun 2 either, they will settle for the T-90`s.

the arjun 2 has extensive israeli assistance with an all electrical turret and possible german assistance with a more powerfull engine.

however the drdo has now officially offered the tank ex to the indian army ,this battle tank is considered as an hybrid between the arjun and the t-72 (turrent and main gun derivedd from the arjun and the hull derived from the t-72),it weighs around 47.5 tons and is likely to be powered by a 1000 hp engine(of russian origin ),a 120mm rifled gun capable of firing the lahat missiles (to a range of 8 kms) derived from the arjun project,the kanchan armouur also developed from the arjun project along with the ammunition stowage concepts.the engine is most likely to be derived from the t-90s.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news ,the accuracy of the pinaka multi barreled rocket launcher has been increased ,thanks to the israeli trajectory correction system,the army is highly satisfied with pinaka's accuracy.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.forceindia.net/cover4.asp

The Israel Military Industries (IMI) has finally salvaged the indigenous Pinaka multi barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) programme by attending to its two fundamental shortcomings: accuracy and range. When asked how these critical shortcomings would be overcome, the then DRDO chief, Dr V.S. Aatre had categorically told FORCE in January 2004 that, “Pinaka will not have a a Mark II derivative,” implying
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that further development work on the weapon system will not involve any design changes. The DRDO was determined to push the operationally limited Pinaka to the user. Even as the DRDO and the user were having heated discussions about the viability of the indigenous MBRL, Israel came to help with its Trajectory Correction System (TCS). As part of the Rs 150 crore deal, (the first of the three instalments was paid in August 2006), that includes transfer of technology of TCS to the DRDO, the accuracy parameter has been met. As a thumb rule, acceptable accuracy of unguided rockets systems the world over is one per cent of the range travelled. Pinaka rockets with a range of 37.5km should fall within a circle of 370metre radius. Instead, they were way off falling within 1,000m radius. The TCS provides a relatively inexpensive and innovative trajectory correction that is capable of day and night operations independent of weather conditions. The guidance and navigation system of TCS rockets have been developed by IMI in cooperation with Elisra that specialises in electronic warfare and communications. While the Indian artillery is completely satisfied with the TCS that has demonstrated rockets falling within acceptable limits at maximum Pinaka range, detailed trials for select DRDO scientists are slated to be held in Israel in November.

Range is the other problem with Pinaka. Considering that medium guns have now crossed the 40km range barrier, Pinaka, with a range of 37.5km is not an attractive weapon system. The time to fire a salvo of Pinaka is 44 seconds, which is much more than Russian Smerch MBRL (90km range) with 24 seconds. Given that these rockets have a large radar cross-section as well as an extremely visible battlefield signature (flash during the powered phase and also massive smoke plume), the rockets must depart the scene earliest after firing a salvo to avoid enemy counter-fire. IMI has offered to increase Pinaka's range to 45km by changes in booster technology including propellant, without changing the basic weapon design. While the DRDO is hesitant to consider the offer, much like as it was reluctant to accept TCS, the user has been pressing the issue.[/FONT]

 

[eckherl]

the arjun 2 has extensive israeli assistance with an all electrical turret and possible german assistance with a more powerfull engine.

however the drdo has now officially offered the tank ex to the indian army ,this battle tank is considered as an hybrid between the arjun and the t-72 (turrent and main gun derivedd from the arjun and the hull derived from the t-72),it weighs around 47.5 tons and is likely to be powered by a 1000 hp engine(of russian origin ),a 120mm rifled gun capable of firing the lahat missiles (to a range of 8 kms) derived from the arjun project,the kanchan armouur also developed from the arjun project along with the ammunition stowage concepts.the engine is most likely to be derived from the t-90s.

I didn`t say that they would stop testing, just that they won`t make it, they
have invested heavily on the T-90 series. The Lahat missile is for a 120 smoothbore, but I don`t see why you can`t make it for 120 rifled, why would they want to place a British designed gun in to their tanks, I do not see any advantage to this.

 

[aaaditya]

I didn`t say that they would stop testing, just that they won`t make it, they
have invested heavily on the T-90 series. The Lahat missile is for a 120 smoothbore, but I don`t see why you can`t make it for 120 rifled, why would they want to place a British designed gun in to their tanks, I do not see any advantage to this.

lahat was modified for firing from the arjun's indigenously designed 120mm rifled gun by coating the missile with a ultra thin layer of rubber .indian army believes that the 120mm rifled gun is the most powerfull in the region.

 

[eckherl]

lahat was modified for firing from the arjun's indigenously designed 120mm rifled gun by coating the missile with a ultra thin layer of rubber .indian army believes that the 120mm rifled gun is the most powerfull in the region.

Then why are the British finally looking at 120mm smoothbore, a rifled gun doesn`t really give you that much more performance if any.

 

[Waylander]

A rifled gun is good for using HESH rounds but not that good for KEs.

 

[aaaditya]

Then why are the British finally looking at 120mm smoothbore, a rifled gun doesn`t really give you that much more performance if any.

the indian army considers the indigenously developed 120mm rifled tank gun as the best available in the region.

 

[eckherl]

the indian army considers the indigenously developed 120mm rifled tank gun as the best available in the region.

Why do they consider it as the best in that particular regoin.

 

[aaaditya]

Why do they consider it as the best in that particular regoin.

because it outperformed the other guns in the region during the trials.

 

[eckherl]

because it outperformed the other guns in the region during the trials.

Okay - so it is a safe bet to say that it out performed Russian 125mm`s.