Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[Soner1980]

I agree with you. The Sabra does still have a weak engine after adding nearly 250 hp. I see the original speed and the Sabra speed the same. It is not improved. But there was an option for a 1200hp engine. I hope that after the 170 MBT's the others will be upgraded by 1200h or even better engines to overcome mobility problems. Turkey also doesn't have plans to invade countries and therefore the Turkish army have chosen to this concept I think. Just be modern. Also the tech transfer is Turkey main interest and not the Sabra himself. The 170 Sabra's tanks is just a 'gift' when buying tech for our laboratories...

You are right about that we don't need to talk about the ability of the neighbours to overcome the defense of Turkey.
But for a mobile offensive the Sabra is really not the best choice it is just not mobile enough. If for example the Syrians have a mobile defense the Sabras would not be able to run through the enemy lines like the Turkey LeoIIA4 would be.
While facing Sabras it would be easier for the T-72s to retread into another fire position and start a new game.

And Greece being just a small stone in the way of the Turkey?
You don't really mean that, don't you?

 

[Soner1980]

And Greece being just a small stone in the way of the Turkey?
You don't really mean that, don't you?

Greece is for sure nothing to Turkey. Greece has a very modern army, but they are not so well in warfare. 1974 is the answer. If they have a good army, there is always that Turkey would find out. Turkish officers knows the weak points of the Greek army. Greek army is good trained, well equipped. So hard fighting against the Italians in 1940. But one month work for the Wehrmacht in April 6th of 1941 and with the help of 60,000 British troops still nothing to the German army.

For Turkey, I think it is the same today because of the numbers and tactics, Turkish air force, weapons with longer range, tactical systems, etc..

 

[Stimpy75]

Greece is for sure nothing to Turkey. Greece has a very modern army, but they are not so well in warfare. 1974 is the answer. If they have a good army, there is always that Turkey would find out. Turkish officers knows the weak points of the Greek army. Greek army is good trained, well equipped. So hard fighting against the Italians in 1940. But one month work for the Wehrmacht in April 6th of 1941 and with the help of 60,000 British troops still nothing to the German army.

For Turkey, I think it is the same today because of the numbers and tactics, Turkish air force, weapons with longer range, tactical systems, etc..

1974 was in cyprus,against the CNG,cyprus national guard,not the hellenic army!don´t underestimated our neighbour!they are very well equipped,they have a good tank force,leo IIa4/a6,leo I,soon marder apc,apache choppers,pzh2000......their air force is as good as ours and esspecially their air defence systems are much superior to ours:S300,patriot,SA-15,crotale....
so plz don´t underestimate our fellow neighbour!
training and tactic?they should be on par with us!except for COIN operations,there we have better experiences!!
just my 2 cent

 

[G-Capo]

Your talking about two NATO allies here.I doubt Turkey and Greece will go to war any time soon.They will just keep on with the Arms race going back and forfth.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes Ok, Two NATO countries getting almost to war in 1986 and in 1996 do you remember?

My intention was not to discus this, Greece vs. Turkey. Ofcource Greece has a formidable army. At present, Greek army is not 'big' to the Turkish army. The Turkish Air Force is far more modern than the Greek army today, but this is gonna change in the future. The A-7 Corsair fleet is to be phased out, many F-4E Phantoms jets are replaced by F-16 jets soon, Their tank fleet is not better than ours. The Leo-2A6 will be delivered in 2009 and their Leo-2A4 also next year so far I know. They have about 1700 MBT's with is equal to ours best ones and we have 2700. We have also good systems like cruise missiles (SLAM-ER) and other systems producing in Turkey.

I agree that the Greek army will be updated soon with much more modern equipment than ours, but Turkey is not sleeping. Many projects are underway to replace many older Turkish war machines. Just a 'cold-war' type arms race.

Now back to topic plz. And for the people who is Greek, I'm sorry komsu. Later we drink thee ok? :

What was the question again?

 

[eckherl]

When in war, Turkey is able to fight all surrounding countries that face them. What is Syria? I don't count Syria as an opposing army because the country is very poor and inept in training. They face very big troubles like their AFV fleet. One of them is (also the biggest) that Syria has the worlds largest tank army but from the 25,000 MBT's only 300 of them are operational, mostly the T-72's and others still not maintained or knocked out by the Jews in the Yom Kipur war.

Iraq does not have a large army anymore but it is also not an enemy today because of the new regime, Iran has big numbers but they lack good training. War is not only launching missiles to the enemy. Ok, Iran is not to be underestimated but Turkey is able to win by it's superior training and more high-tech weaponry. When I think back to Iran-Iraq war, Iranian army lack also motivation. But especially tacktics of higher ranked officers may be the worst to the Iranian army. The Air Force is nothing to the Turkish Airforce and naval force vice versa. The Iranian anti-ship missiles is still nothing compared to Turkish Harpoon cruise-missiles.

The other smaller countries like Armenia or Greece, it's like laying a stone on the train rails and watch the train passing.

My comment was the fact that Iran nor Syria would make any attempt to attack Turkey, what would the purpose be. Why would Turkey want to attack Iran anyways what would the gain be. And please give me your resource that Syria only has 300 operational tanks out of 25,000. We are talking about a weapons platform that has upgrades to keep it around for a while, not about Turkey being able to conquer all of the Middle East.

 

[eckherl]

According to the Hurriyet (Turkish) newspaper, the turret was pennetrated and the gunner was wounded by it's shoulder. Also, the Russian lab confirmed that they worked for a small calliber AT-round. Do you remember the PTRS-41 14,5mm AT-Rifle that destroyed many German tanks from 1941 till 1943 in the second war? (Mostly Pz-I Pz-II, Pz-III and the early variants of Pz-IV) I think this era has come back. 12,7mm anti-material / sniper rifles, etc..

If you are talking about the most recent incident that has General Dynamics scrambling, it was not a side turret shot but a side hull penetration, it did not even hit the hull ballistic armor skirt, it entered near the second roadwheel arm whizzed by the driver who was not hit. Waylander is correct in regards to the APU units, this is being possibly revised to see if they can relocate it.
No small caliber size projectile has penetrated the side of a turret on a M1A1 in Iraq, Keepin mind that this newspaper is Anti American.

 

[Soner1980]

First, my intention was not that Turkey is going to conquer the whole middle east and Iran. Not going to war with Greece, not bombing other army for a reason. But when asking if Turkish army is capable of doing this? Than my answer is yes.

The second, the Turkish paper is not anti-american. But it's Turkish and information is gained by a correspondent (deuhh). What I had readed is the story what you have read, a small hole in the side of the turret. If you know better, than we all want to know from you.

But what about the Sabra upgrade? The USMC's M60A1 tanks are to be upgraded here, is it useful for the USMC that they can use Sabra's too? (Not that the USMC is receiving Sabra's but imagine that it gets delivery of it) Many people says that the Sabra is still slow by todays standard and I also agree.

 

[Waylander]

The USMC is upgrading its M60s?
I thought that the whole USMC tank fleet is at least at M1A1 standard.

 

[eckherl]

The USMC is upgrading its M60s?
I thought that the whole USMC tank fleet is at least at M1A1 standard.

You are correct - last units were phased out around the mid nineties, some of the tanks were given to Taiwan.

 

[Waylander]

Ah, thanks!
I knew I lost not all of my memory to beer and shooters.

 

[eckherl]

First, my intention was not that Turkey is going to conquer the whole middle east and Iran. Not going to war with Greece, not bombing other army for a reason. But when asking if Turkish army is capable of doing this? Than my answer is yes.

The second, the Turkish paper is not anti-american. But it's Turkish and information is gained by a correspondent (deuhh). What I had readed is the story what you have read, a small hole in the side of the turret. If you know better, than we all want to know from you.

But what about the Sabra upgrade? The USMC's M60A1 tanks are to be upgraded here, is it useful for the USMC that they can use Sabra's too? (Not that the USMC is receiving Sabra's but imagine that it gets delivery of it) Many people says that the Sabra is still slow by todays standard and I also agree.

Yes - Turkey is fully capable of handling a war time situation with it`s neighbors, and everyone over there realizes this also, my comment point was that Iran and Syria know that Turkey is a NATO Alliance Country.

As far as the Shot to the hull, they are still trying to figure that one out, they are leaning towards a shaped charge style war head due to the round splash near the area of penetration, please keep in mind that this area is not really thick in armor

 

[beleg]

Syria is out of the question since 99s. They have kept on falling back when Turkish Tanks and Mech divisions entered Syria as deep as 10 kms on at least a few occasions. Dont think that it was only the speech of a few soldiers and politicians that forced them to kick out terrorist leader Ocalan out of Syria. It was the determination of the Turkish Armed Forces.

Iran is another story tho. Although Iran has a very high Turkish population, the two nations have rivalled since the medieval times. The struggle has been exhausting for both sides and the frontiers have not changd since 1600s , despite the fact that we have fought several times after it. Iran has tried to use western allies , while Ottomans tried to use Irans eastern allies to keep each other in check.

However todays situation is very different. We are facing an Iran with an open nuclear ambitions , missiles with capacity to hit Istanbul or Ankara , with alot of chemical and biological weapons and a sinister looking government. Iran is using the lack of USA support in Turkeys "war against its own terror" and trying to persuade Turkey that they are no harm to us. However history has repadetly shown that as soon as they have the upperhand (i.e get the nukes or force USA out of Iraq) they will start to use this to outmaneouvr or weaken Turkey in the region. Which in the mid-long term will definetly cause hostilities.

Iran might use the nuclear card to remove all sanctions or to have more power in middle-east by making pressure on USA as well. Another bad scenario for Turks.

Is the M-60T enough to deter Iran? Is F-16? Will AEWC&C supported F-35 strong enough? I think its not enough. Because Iran is not fool enough to start hostilities in this way at least in the beginning of the power struggle they will use other methods like they used in Labenon against Israel.. However if this is the case Turkey will NOT wait and watch or spend time with minions but attack the master. Then all these weapons will be necessary.

Maybe after this somewhat long and boring post some western friends may realise why we dont feel secure with Iran although our populations are culturally so close. For you maybe Iran will commit suicide to attack a NATO nation with nukes. But if the nukes are going to explode on my head, i dont care if you guys take them to hell later on..

 

[Stimpy75]

Hmm,i thought we had a relative good realtionship with iran....
now back to topic,does one of you exactly know what type of 120 mm gun the SABRA has? i mean somewhere i have read that it is a 44 calibre,but then i also read that it is a 42 calibre!so,which one is it?

 

[beleg]

Its based on the Leo2A4s L44 calibre gun.

 

[Soner1980]

The USMC is upgrading its M60s?
I thought that the whole USMC tank fleet is at least at M1A1 standard.

Yes the USMC has given their M60A1's to Turkey and Taiwan for free out of the FMS. Turkey is allowed to change everything on the tanks because it has no limitations. The USMC also uses the original M1 MBT's I think or they are upgraded to the M1A1. I'm not sure.

The Sabra tanks can be handy when using it against Iran or even Syria. The Iranians are looking to upgrade their T-72's to the T-90 or maybe they buy new T-90's. Also, they have the Zulfiqar 3 tanks wich is built with M48/M60 parts. But how it's built, is a kept secret. The SAbra is very useful against a T-72 or even T-90 when used good. Also, Turkey is working for a domestic Turkish MBT to produce a Turkish MBT in the 2012 when the first F-35 also will be delivered. According to a British newspaper, I don't know wich one, Turkey already has nuclear technology to develop enriched uranium for a warhead. The knowledge is available, there is a 250 kw nuclear plant in Küçük Çekmece (Istanbul) for R&D programs.

The Sabra has a 44 caliber Compact Tank Gun. Someone describes it a derivation of the Rheinmetal 120mm gun but I don't think it's true. Israel has built the M68 105mm gun for a couple of decades and they now how to built a new gun. Also Turkey has produced this 105mm gun, the M68T1 105mm gun produced by MKEK under license. So about 500 barrels were produced for the modernisation of the M48A2/A3 series to the M48A5T1/T2

But someone knows the muzzle velocity of the Merkava 4 L-44 120mm CTG? Does it fire the latest 120mm munitions produced by USA and Germany?

 

[eckherl]

Yes the USMC has given their M60A1's to Turkey and Taiwan for free out of the FMS. Turkey is allowed to change everything on the tanks because it has no limitations. The USMC also uses the original M1 MBT's I think or they are upgraded to the M1A1. I'm not sure.

The Sabra tanks can be handy when using it against Iran or even Syria. The Iranians are looking to upgrade their T-72's to the T-90 or maybe they buy new T-90's. Also, they have the Zulfiqar 3 tanks wich is built with M48/M60 parts. But how it's built, is a kept secret. The SAbra is very useful against a T-72 or even T-90 when used good. Also, Turkey is working for a domestic Turkish MBT to produce a Turkish MBT in the 2012 when the first F-35 also will be delivered. According to a British newspaper, I don't know wich one, Turkey already has nuclear technology to develop enriched uranium for a warhead. The knowledge is available, there is a 250 kw nuclear plant in Küçük Çekmece (Istanbul) for R&D programs.

The Sabra has a 44 caliber Compact Tank Gun. Someone describes it a derivation of the Rheinmetal 120mm gun but I don't think it's true. Israel has built the M68 105mm gun for a couple of decades and they now how to built a new gun. Also Turkey has produced this 105mm gun, the M68T1 105mm gun produced by MKEK under license. So about 500 barrels were produced for the modernisation of the M48A2/A3 series to the M48A5T1/T2

But someone knows the muzzle velocity of the Merkava 4 L-44 120mm CTG? Does it fire the latest 120mm munitions produced by USA and Germany?

The U.S marines went from the M60`s to the M1A1, they skipped the first generation. Turkey also recieved a small amount of M48A5`s from us but you are correct that they do have their own modernization program for it. We actually used M48`s in South Korea up to the mid Eightie`s. And yes the Merkava can fire NATO standard 120mm ammunition. The muzzle velocitie`s compare on par to German and American guns. For main gun capabilities the Sabra will have no problems at the present time.

 

[Soner1980]

About the M48A5, the US army used somewhat of 1000 M48's in US service. Most of them were in use for inland protection or training. Some of them were active in front sections like Korea or even Europe. Turkey is now the largest user in the world of the M48 series with about 3000 in it's inventory and finaly decided to phase them out step by step. The First of the M48's that phased out is about 750 tanks. (http://warriorsoul.4t.com/army.html)

The 274 M60A1 that we received from the USMC as a gift have made a good sound in the media and now it is free of all upgrades. One thing is clear that the M48A5 (also T1 and T2 variants in Turkish Army) were also one of the deadliest tanks in the world, of it's 105mm gun ofcourse with it's DU rounds.

The Sabra will have more deadly, better accuracy, newer gun and better armored, more modern electronics installed that will make the M60A1's usefull for at least 10 years more till our Turkish tanks rolls out of the production line.

 

[eckherl]

Syria is out of the question since 99s. They have kept on falling back when Turkish Tanks and Mech divisions entered Syria as deep as 10 kms on at least a few occasions. Dont think that it was only the speech of a few soldiers and politicians that forced them to kick out terrorist leader Ocalan out of Syria. It was the determination of the Turkish Armed Forces.

Iran is another story tho. Although Iran has a very high Turkish population, the two nations have rivalled since the medieval times. The struggle has been exhausting for both sides and the frontiers have not changd since 1600s , despite the fact that we have fought several times after it. Iran has tried to use western allies , while Ottomans tried to use Irans eastern allies to keep each other in check.

However todays situation is very different. We are facing an Iran with an open nuclear ambitions , missiles with capacity to hit Istanbul or Ankara , with alot of chemical and biological weapons and a sinister looking government. Iran is using the lack of USA support in Turkeys "war against its own terror" and trying to persuade Turkey that they are no harm to us. However history has repadetly shown that as soon as they have the upperhand (i.e get the nukes or force USA out of Iraq) they will start to use this to outmaneouvr or weaken Turkey in the region. Which in the mid-long term will definetly cause hostilities.

Iran might use the nuclear card to remove all sanctions or to have more power in middle-east by making pressure on USA as well. Another bad scenario for Turks.

Is the M-60T enough to deter Iran? Is F-16? Will AEWC&C supported F-35 strong enough? I think its not enough. Because Iran is not fool enough to start hostilities in this way at least in the beginning of the power struggle they will use other methods like they used in Labenon against Israel.. However if this is the case Turkey will NOT wait and watch or spend time with minions but attack the master. Then all these weapons will be necessary.

Maybe after this somewhat long and boring post some western friends may realise why we dont feel secure with Iran although our populations are culturally so close. For you maybe Iran will commit suicide to attack a NATO nation with nukes. But if the nukes are going to explode on my head, i dont care if you guys take them to hell later on..

Do not be so sure that the situation with Iran having nukes is going to go their way, it is not good for a world leader to tell the world that another nation needs to be erased off of the face of the earth.

 

[beleg]

Indeed , i agree with you, but after all even if Iran trades her nuclear card for more power in Middle East, which i believe US may like to do if it goes like this in Iraq, it will be Turkey's loss, since Iran will then support Kurdish terrorism heavily like they did in the past.