Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

BilalK

New Member
You are correct but in between, Pakistan became interested in A-7 Corsairs but were turned down by Carter Administration invoking Pressler Amendment.. Shortly after Reagan took over, F-18L were offered. Pakistan was quite excited by this development and while the initial talks started between Lockheed and PAF, F-16s were injected by General Dynamics by a promise that if Pakistan showed interest, GD would work with the Congress for transfer of F-16s to Pakistan. We know the rest of the story.
Correct, I heard when Reagan took over and relaxed export restrictions, Northrop offered the F-18L to the PAF; and the PAF was one of the very few air forces that had genuine interest in F-18L rather than the McDonald Douglas F/A-18A. There were rumours about Pakistan requesting that if PAF bought F-18L, some of the order be produced/manufactured or assembled in Pakistan.

PAF has a very interesting and long line of attempted procurements, and they go as far back as the late 1940s.
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys,if what this article says is true,then the next few days would be interesting times for india,russia,pakistan and china,however there are a few mistakes in this article.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.kommersant.com/p717480/r_529/Russia_China_India_military/

Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion


// Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?


China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.


This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.




if the russians chose china,then the indians will have some interesting things to say to putin when he visits india at the end of the year to negotiate expansion of the joint defence development deals.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
hey guys,if what this article says is true,then the next few days would be interesting times for india,russia,pakistan and china,however there are a few mistakes in this article.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.kommersant.com/p717480/r_529/Russia_China_India_military/

Russia Chooses Between $1.5 Billion and $2 Billion


// Will Russia Honor Its Military-Technology Deals with China or with India?


China has appealed to Russia to include Pakistan in the list of countries with which Moscow has military-technological trade partnerships. Otherwise, China cannot fulfill its contract for the delivery to Pakistan of FC-1 fighter planes with Russian engines. If Russia refuses, it could complicate trade relations with China, which bring in $2 billion annually. Agreement, however, could threaten Russia's ties with India, which are worth more than $1.5 billion per year.


This week an official Chinese delegation will arrive in Moscow for negotiations. According to information obtained by kommersant, the Chinese representatives will insist that Pakistan be included in the list of countries with which Russia has agreed to conduct military-technological trade. Otherwise, Beijing will have to default on its contract to deliver FC-1 fighter jets to Pakistan. According to the existing contract with Beijing, Russia has agreed to outfit Chinese fighter jets with Russian engines. Unfortunately for Beijing, however, according to an addendum to the contract, China does not have the right to re-export planes with Russian engines to a third country.

The FC-1 (also known as the Super-7), the first Chinese multifunction fighter jet, is oriented towards the international market. Chengdu Aircraft Industry began the development of the plane in the early 1990s. Around 50% of the costs ($75 million) were carried by Pakistan. China's National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation, Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company, Israel's IAI, and Russia's OKB-Mikoyan Engineering Center all took part in the project. The FC-1 made its first flight in August 2003.

China signed an agreement with Pakistan to deliver 150 FC-1 jets under the name JF-17 Thunder. But it was impossible to get the Russian engines for them. "Pakistan is not included in the list of countries with whom Russia has military-technological trade, meaning that the re-export of Russian military goods to Pakistan is not possible," said the Russian military producer Rosoboronexport. The Federal Military-Technology Trade Service confirmed to Kommersant that it does not intend to include Pakistan. Including Pakistan could harm relations with India, with which Russia has signed an agreement not to deliver military technology to Islamabad. The trade in military technology between Russia and India is worth more than $1.5 billion annually. The MiG corporation has also won a tender from the Indian government to deliver 126 fighter jets for a sum of $6.5 billion.

However, Beijing could also bring its weight to bear on Russia in terms of future contracts: talks are being held concerning Su-33 fighters (up to 48 planes for up to $2.5 billion), 15 Be-200 amphibious planes with "Sea Snake" targeting systems ($400 million), almost 40 Ka-29 transport helicopters and more than 20 Ka-31 helicopters (around $200 million), and four Zubr ("Bison") hydroplane boats (around $210 million).

The terms of the contract signed by Rosoboronexport and China in 2005 for the delivery of 100 RD-93 engines for FC-1 fighters, along with parts and service, for $267 million is also under strain for a different reason. Russia was supposed to deliver 15 engines by September, but only ten have been delivered so far: the Chinese have refused to accept the remaining five because of technical problems, and delivery has now been pushed back to December. China is additionally suggesting that that RD-93 be modernized and its thrust increased from 8.3 to 9 tons in order to pump up the tactical-technical specifications of the FC-1. Rosoboronexport has yet to make a decision, since the modified RD-93 has not been completely developed yet in Russia.

Experts in the field believe that China will not succeed in winning a concession from Russia on the question of re-export and that it will have to seek a compromise with Pakistan. "Russia will never give China the right to re-export its military technology to Pakistan, since that would threaten [Russia's] multibillion dollar contracts with India," believes Russia/CIS Observer editor Maksim Pyadushkin. "However, Beijing will never drop the FC-1 program. The most important thing for the Chinese now is to get RD-93 engines that they can take apart and copy in the future, like they do with everything in China." In the opinion of experts, Beijing will most likely offer Islamabad either another plane or, if worst comes to worse, return its money for the development of the FC-1.




if the russians chose china,then the indians will have some interesting things to say to putin when he visits india at the end of the year to negotiate expansion of the joint defence development deals.
interesting for what? The writer in this article can't get half of his facts right:
1. Pakistan paid a lot more than 75 million for JF-17 development.
2. India has not picked Russia for MRCA
3. JF-17 is definitely not China's first multirole plane

As for the main issue of the engine, Pakistan should be worried, but not that worried. WS-13 will most likely be ready by 2009. The worst scenario would be for all the testing to be carried out in CAC, so I guess that would make the integration into PAF a lot more difficult. Anyway, if the Russians don't agree to this, that would be their own loss. China has only paid for the engines delivered so far. I can't see China ordering that many JF-17s anytime soon, so basically, Russians would be hard pressed to get the 100 delivered and paid for, let alone the 500 orders that they were looking for.
 

aaaditya

New Member
interesting for what? The writer in this article can't get half of his facts right:
1. Pakistan paid a lot more than 75 million for JF-17 development.
2. India has not picked Russia for MRCA
3. JF-17 is definitely not China's first multirole plane

As for the main issue of the engine, Pakistan should be worried, but not that worried. WS-13 will most likely be ready by 2009. The worst scenario would be for all the testing to be carried out in CAC, so I guess that would make the integration into PAF a lot more difficult. Anyway, if the Russians don't agree to this, that would be their own loss. China has only paid for the engines delivered so far. I can't see China ordering that many JF-17s anytime soon, so basically, Russians would be hard pressed to get the 100 delivered and paid for, let alone the 500 orders that they were looking for.
i really doubt if china would risk it's 10billion dollar defence joint development plan with india as well as its space cooperation plans with india .also i believe that the russian would be worrie about the jf-17 eating into their export market with respect to mig29's(not regarding pakistan but othet countries which acquire russian jet may opt for a chinese one if it cheaper than the russian one).
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
i really doubt if china would risk it's 10billion dollar defence joint development plan with india as well as its space cooperation plans with india .also i believe that the russian would be worrie about the jf-17 eating into their export market with respect to mig29's(not regarding pakistan but othet countries which acquire russian jet may opt for a chinese one if it cheaper than the russian one).
As I said, Russians not allowing this would delay FC-1 joining PAF by probably 2 years. Even during these 2 years, PAF could send their pilots over to China for them to train on Chinese FC-1 prototypes.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines
PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously...
01-Nov-2006

http://jdin.janes.com/public/jdin/index.shtml


should clear things up about the engine speculation.
I still doubt it but since Jane is reporting it then who knows: IMO, these reports are timed to influence India from making any decision in favor of US or European aircrafts.

But If true, it does point to an adverse decision for Moscow by the Indians pertaining to 126 MRCA purchase. Russians must know something that is not public yet. It also raises suspicion that India may be going for either the US or European jets.

I do not see any other reason for a sea change in their thinking pertaining to Pakistan
 

mysterious

New Member
I guess we'll have to wait for a full story to emerge. As is the case with Janes, you have to be a member to read the full piece and I believe so far, no one in here has had full access to this piece. I hope DT news sections picks up on this one soon so that we may get a clarification on this issue at the earliest.

However I do agree with pshamim, if true, this would be a marked change in Russian attitude towards Pakistan vis-a-vis military equipment sales and who knows, maybe even more?
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
I guess we'll have to wait for a full story to emerge. As is the case with Janes, you have to be a member to read the full piece and I believe so far, no one in here has had full access to this piece. I hope DT news sections picks up on this one soon so that we may get a clarification on this issue at the earliest.

However I do agree with pshamim, if true, this would be a marked change in Russian attitude towards Pakistan vis-a-vis military equipment sales and who knows, maybe even more?
If India has the option to buy from multiple sellers the Russian may want to have multiple buyers too.

I do not think that Indian Russian cooperation will be jeoperdized because of RD-93 sale to Pakistan. These two countries are too interdependent on each other. Also, Russia is selling far more to China who happen to be the other enemy for India.

India may not want to press the issue as it will not want to create a perception that it is scared of Pakistani forces and a sale of RD-93 makes her insecure.
 
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webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
Janes Defence Weekly reporting that Russia has agreed to supply engines for JF-17 and has decided to include Pakistan in the deal:

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines
PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously...
01-Nov-2006

If anybody has full article, be sure to post it.

All wet dreams have their end.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Janes Defence Weekly reporting that Russia has agreed to supply engines for JF-17 and has decided to include Pakistan in the deal:

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines
PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously...
01-Nov-2006

If anybody has full article, be sure to post it.

All wet dreams have their end.

An incredible statement from Mr. Li Pei, development director at China's Chengdhu Aircraft Industry Group, which is leading the programme and also involved in the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. It is the first time that Klimov Director General Alexander Vatagin has ever acknowledged that they will sell the RD-93 to Pakistan. Indicates a world of change in Russian attitudes towards Pakistan.

Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006

JANE'S DEFENCE INDUSTRY - DECEMBER 01, 2006

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines

Here is the full article coutesy Xinhui.

By Robert Karniol, Zuhai Air Show, China. Additional reporting by Ben Vogel, Janes.com Editor

PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously resisted giving Pakistan access to the engine.

Directly contradicting an earlier Russian position, a senior Chinese aerospace official has for the first time publicly confirmed that the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 (FC-1) under development will be powered by the Russian engine. The new position was supported by Russian officials.

"Right now we are using the RD-93 [in prototypes] and it's Klimov who will do the series production [of the engine]. The engine will be exported to Pakistan," said Li Pei, development director at China's Chengdhu Aircraft Industry Group, which is leading the programme and also involved the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

Klimov mentioned that the FC-1, China's version of the jointly developed aircraft, is still undergoing "performance flight tests".

Russian diplomatic and industry officials had previously stated without qualification that the RD-93 powering the FC-1 will not be provided to Islamabad either directly or through re-export. Klimov had reiterated this position only a day before Li's statement.

Moscow is thought to have hesitated over any deal involving provision of its military products to Pakistan because of concerns centred on its long-standing defence relationship with rival India.

Klimov, in particular, is involved in a Russian bid to supply New Delhi with 126 MiG-29 fighters.

Li reversed this view of the JF-17 programme when questioned by Jane's at a press briefing organised by Klimov during the China Air Show 2006. He was flanked on the podium by senior officials from both Klimov and the Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport.

"If we don't sell [Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will. It's just a reality," said Klimov Director General Alexander Vatagin, in a follow-up comment. Oleg Novikov, a senior official with Rosoborenexport, reinforced the change in position over export of the engine.
"The process to [arrange the provision to Pakistan of the RD-93] is on-going," he explained.

"The export licence will be granted provided it doesn't contravene the export laws of Russia or China."


The Pakistan Air Force earlier this year told Jane's that it had received firm assurances from China that the RD-93 issue will not prove a problem despite repeated Russian statements to the contrary.
 
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BilalK

New Member
The statement from Klimov suggests that the chances of other companies competing for JF-17's engine were likely, "If we don't sell [Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will."
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
The statement from Klimov suggests that the chances of other companies competing for JF-17's engine were likely, "If we don't sell [Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will."
I told people, WS-13A is not that far off. If the Russians don't sell it, China just won't take in more RD-93 and they won't even get paid for 100 RD-93.
 
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uaf

New Member
I told people, WS-13A is not that far off. If the Russians don't sell it, China just won't take in more RD-93 and they won't even get paid for 100 RD-93.
ok good news for JF-17 and Pakistan but I want to ask one more thing which I was thinking that ok Russia wont or didn’t want to sell Engines for Fc-10/JF-17 there can be more options

1- WS-13A as tphuang said

2- Than why shouldn’t PAF buy more J-10s like erm 150+ I don’t think there will be an unaffordable price difference for choosing J-10 rather than JF-17 it ll be few hundred millions or perhaps 1/2billion $ or more but J-10s is also far better aircraft than JF-17

One set back can be the dream of self reliance will be affected but China has never let PAK down and I don’t think it can happen in near future China might allow Pakistan to participate in some other joint projects or even license Pakistan to build some components or the whole J-10 in near future well just a thought ..........
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
Russia to supply engines to Pak

Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006

JANE'S DEFENCE INDUSTRY - DECEMBER 01, 2006

Russia decides to supply Pakistan with fighter-aircraft engines

By Robert Karniol, Zuhai Air Show, China. Additional reporting by Ben Vogel, Janes.com Editor

PAKISTAN'S JF-17 light multirole fighter aircraft will be powered by Russian Klimov RD-93 engines - a substantial change in position for Russia which had previously resisted giving Pakistan access to the engine.

Directly contradicting an earlier Russian position, a senior Chinese aerospace official has for the first time publicly confirmed that the Sino-Pakistani JF-17 (FC-1) under development will be powered by the Russian engine. The new position was supported by Russian officials.

"Right now we are using the RD-93 [in prototypes] and it's Klimov who will do the series production [of the engine]. The engine will be exported to Pakistan," said Li Pei, development director at China's Chengdhu Aircraft Industry Group, which is leading the programme and also involved the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.

Klimov mentioned that the FC-1, China's version of the jointly developed aircraft, is still undergoing "performance flight tests".

Russian diplomatic and industry officials had previously stated without qualification that the RD-93 powering the FC-1 will not be provided to Islamabad either directly or through re-export. Klimov had reiterated this position only a day before Li's statement.

Moscow is thought to have hesitated over any deal involving provision of its military products to Pakistan because of concerns centred on its long-standing defence relationship with rival India.

Klimov, in particular, is involved in a Russian bid to supply New Delhi with 126 MiG-29 fighters.

Li reversed this view of the JF-17 programme when questioned by Jane's at a press briefing organised by Klimov during the China Air Show 2006. He was flanked on the podium by senior officials from both Klimov and the Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport.

"If we don't sell [Pakistan the RD-93 engines] then someone else will. It's just a reality," said Klimov Director General Alexander Vatagin, in a follow-up comment. Oleg Novikov, a senior official with Rosoborenexport, reinforced the change in position over export of the engine.

"The process to [arrange the provision to Pakistan of the RD-93] is on-going," he explained.

"The export licence will be granted provided it doesn't contravene the export laws of Russia or China."

The Pakistan Air Force earlier this year told Jane's that it had received firm assurances from China that the RD-93 issue will not prove a problem despite repeated Russian statements to the contrary.
Russians might supply Rd-93's to Pakistan.The news to me is not surprising specially when IAF chief had hinted at India not being intrested in Mig-35.Having said that above deal is gonna deeply affect Indo-Russian defense deals specially when former has started looking towards Israel and US for hi-tech weapons.

And oh yes Ws-13 would now might be a reality once Rd-93's arrive.:idea2
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Speculation.

Could it be that Russia is trying to suggest they would not sell engines to pakistan if India takes up their offer for the fighter contract?

IOW: Russia could sweeten a deal to India with the promise of not selling to Pakistan...
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
Speculation.

Could it be that Russia is trying to suggest they would not sell engines to pakistan if India takes up their offer for the fighter contract?

IOW: Russia could sweeten a deal to India with the promise of not selling to Pakistan...
No , for India has bigger deals than the MRCA tender with Russia.I do not think Mig-35 was gonna make it anyway(specially when HAL recently struck a deal to produce Rd-33's locally along with MLU's of Mig-29's)
 

uaf

New Member
No , for India has bigger deals than the MRCA tender with Russia.I do not think Mig-35 was gonna make it anyway(specially when HAL recently struck a deal to produce Rd-33's locally along with MLU's of Mig-29's)
Correct I don’t for MRCA deal Mig is a strong competitor
even if Russia wont sell engines for JF-17 it can further effect relations with China and will force Pakistan to induct more J-10 the plan which is more lethal than JF-17 ONLY IF or rather will have to go for some other engine but again will have to make changes in structure of plane

any way I don’t think Russia will deny as we are hearing such reports
 
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