Indonesia's acquisition of Russian submarines

[Whiskyjack]

Maybe it might be a bit more prudent to look at the subs as defence rather than offensive.

Given that Indonesia has no real surface combatant or air superiority/strike capability subs provide the most cost effective deterrence of any potential aggressor into the archipelago.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Maybe its an attempt to achieve some sort of deterrent. On a diplomatic level things are pretty good between us and the indo's (i'm Aussie), but i'm sure indo brass may be a bit woried that if things go south in Ache or West Papua, and they have to send in the troops, that we'll go in and they'll lose more teritory and there wont be anything they can do about it. Maybe there thrying to make us think twice???

 

[Whiskyjack]

Maybe its an attempt to achieve some sort of deterrent. On a diplomatic level things are pretty good between us and the indo's (i'm Aussie), but i'm sure indo brass may be a bit woried that if things go south in Ache or West Papua, and they have to send in the troops, that we'll go in and they'll lose more teritory and there wont be anything they can do about it. Maybe there thrying to make us think twice???

Why does it have to be about the US and Australia? Australia does not see Indonesia as a direct threat (now due to so many different things), yet Australian defence policy orientates to the north as that is the only realistic avenue for attack from any potential aggressor.

Indonesia knows that any external threat to it will be maritime in nature so the most cost effective deterrent is a small sub force.

 

[webmaster]

Folks,

Sorry if this sounds harsh for some...

Please pay some respect to Indonesia as a country, its people and its right to acquire weapons for self defence. Rather than discussing what strategic challenges does such procurement presents to the region and how it should be or would be dealt with, we are mocking and generalizing another country and its people. Obviously, mocking another country or its people is no way to go and does not show maturity on your part.

I don't think anybody here would like if bunch of Indonesians start mocking and insulting Aussies or Kiwis, etc. So, in order to earn some respect one must learn to respect even if there are major differences of thought and opinion.

Please read the rules of the DefenceTalk forum here:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

There are plenty of boards on the net that allow you to mud sling and insult the countries and people you do not like, Defencetalk is not in that business.

Thanks and enjoy!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Your right webbie, i got a bit out of line. I apoligise to any Indonesians. I have much respect for your people of your beutifull country. The only point I originaly had was that the money spent on resent aquisitions like the SSK's and the Sukahois, would have been much better spent on an airlift capability and smaller surface platforms, which would adress the real problems facing the Indonesisan military at the moment. The threat level in South East Asia really low at the moment, and i cant see any of Indonesia's neighbours taking an agressive stance without serious provocation, and i seriosly doubt they have any agressive ambitions. We have some serious offencive armament but i doubt cabinet are reviewing plans to take over south east asia. However, the closest things have come to an international incident in the area was during Timor in 99, and it could be argued by some Indonesians that we acted agressivly, and that at the moment Indonesian Armed forces arn't really a match for the ADF (no disrespect were not really a match for most western nations on even terms) and that there is a possibility of a similar situation occuring over Ache or West Papua, so these aquisitions may be aimed at, amongst others like China and India, Australia. Sound reasonable????

 

[Cootamundra]

Folks,

Sorry if this sounds harsh for some...

Please pay some respect to Indonesia as a country, its people and its right to acquire weapons for self defence. Rather than discussing what strategic challenges does such procurement presents to the region and how it should be or would be dealt with, we are mocking and generalizing another country and its people. Obviously, mocking another country or its people is no way to go and does not show maturity on your part.

I don't think anybody here would like if bunch of Indonesians start mocking and insulting Aussies or Kiwis, etc. So, in order to earn some respect one must learn to respect even if there are major differences of thought and opinion.

Please read the rules of the DefenceTalk forum here:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

There are plenty of boards on the net that allow you to mud sling and insult the countries and people you do not like, Defencetalk is not in that business.

Thanks and enjoy!

Good point and a fair one....good to see the rules extend to all

 

[Todjaeger]

Two questions regarding the planned Indonesian SSK purchase.

Have any figures been announced in terms of the cost for the project, or what the per unit cost will be?

Also where does the SSK purchase fit into a "Green Water Navy" for Indonesia that the RAN is helping them develop?

I admit, I haven't been swayed yet and still think the purchase is not the best option for Indonesia. In my view, the greatest current threat to Indonesia is internal, from pirates and criminals, or as an independence movement for Aceh or West Papua. Not from the surrounding countries. Still, if it's part of a plan for a Green Water Navy that is coherent, it could make sense.

-Cheers

 

[abramsteve]

Fair point Webmaster. I will refrain from any further possible insults.

Todjaeger, I think that is one of the issue alot of us have with the purchase, it doesnt fit into their new force structure and has little to no use in any role accept for offense.

Its not that so much that they are percieved as a threat, at least not to the RAN, but it gives an impression of what their priorities really are...

 

[contedicavour]

but without submarines the indonesian navy would not have a credible force capable of offensive or defensive action against its neighbours,lst's are usefull but does indonesia really nead 5 medium sized lst's ,lst's are extremely usefull for disaster management ,however major disasters are not that common indonesians do not have a maritime assault force large enough for carrying out an invasion using the lst's also lst's would require submarine escorts because if they venture out alone they would be sitting ducks to enemy submarines and warships.

as far as the off shore patrol vessels and their intended use against piracy is concerned it is the responsibility of the indonesian coast guard,iam sure acquisition funding for offshore patrol vessels would come from a seperate source in the defence budget.

I may be wrong, but Indonesia is not like India or Malaysia, it doesn't have a strong, separately funded Coast Guard to speak of. Patrol is done by Navy ex-East German Parchim light LSTs and obsolete light frigates (from the ex Dutch Leanders to '50-'60s vintage ex US light destroyer escorts...) plus a few '80s FAC(M) with MM38 Exocets. There also a few Navy CN235s patrolling the air.
Virtually all of these assets need urgent replacement and maintenance, but the only planned replacement is 4 corvettes building in the Netherlands.

Regarding LSTs, for a country with hundreds of islands, it is key to be able to move fast troops from one island to another, and LSTs are key for this.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Indonesia may also be following the path of the Latin American navies outside of Venezuela. In the future they may be interested in acquiring used surface warships, saving most of their naval acquisition funds for new submarines. As the Latinos have discovered, used surface warships do become available at favorable prices, whereas used submarines don't. When navies discard their submarines, these subs have already reached the end of their service lives.

However, I am of the opinion Indonesia would be better off acquiring new surface ships too. I would think 3-4 small frigates would suffice, allowing their navy to participate in exercies with allies, and a score of OPVs similar to New Zealand's capable of patrolling their EEZs. Indonesia could acquire 10 OPVs for the price of each frigate.

I also believe Indonesia requires several sealift vessels to maintain authority over the hundreds of islands. A few New Zealand MRVs would come in very handy especially for humanitarian relief efforts. They could buy 2-3 MRVs for the price of 1 LPD. The MRVs would be more useful than a few LSTs, and should cost around the same.

Unfortunately, in the past Indonesia has had budget crunches. One year they'll have all of their ships operational, a few years later less than a quarter of their fleet is operational. Indonesia needs to discover a way to keep their fleet operational every year. In my mind this requires buying simplier vessels that are sustainable, which are easily and cheaply maintained.

Thus my concern about the submarine purchase. Submarines don't fit into the category of easily and cheaply maintained.

I'm also concerned whether Indonesia has the shipyard/drydock capability to maintain their ships. A further investment into infrastructure may also be required.

 

[Subangite]

I may be wrong, but Indonesia is not like India or Malaysia, it doesn't have a strong, separately funded Coast Guard to speak of. Patrol is done by Navy ex-East German Parchim light LSTs and obsolete light frigates (from the ex Dutch Leanders to '50-'60s vintage ex US light destroyer escorts...) plus a few '80s FAC(M) with MM38 Exocets. There also a few Navy CN235s patrolling the air.
Virtually all of these assets need urgent replacement and maintenance, but the only planned replacement is 4 corvettes building in the Netherlands.

Regarding LSTs, for a country with hundreds of islands, it is key to be able to move fast troops from one island to another, and LSTs are key for this.

cheers

Your points are all valid. To me it seems that the purchase mimics that of its neighbours, it follows Malaysia's Scorpenes and Singapore's Västergötland purchases, eventhough for Indonesia, purchases of Amur or Kilo class submarines IMO is not a priority for its armed forces and its navy. That said, there are territorial disputes between Malaysia and Indonesia. The Malacca Straits is also of strategic value, I don't think as a navy it can stand idle whilst other regional navies around it (Read: Malaysia / Singapore ) become more capable and have the technological advantage. OPV, LST purchases whilst to me seems more logical, won't bridge the gap between the capabilities of the TNI-AL and neighbouring navies. Perhaps to defence planners in Jakarta, what is more important to them is to counter balance the influence of the new submarines in the region, the strengths of the navies of Singapore and Malaysia, which as a result of the FPDA defence treaty are obligated to defend each other in a regional conflict with Indonesia. In my opinion, its a foolish argument, as a result of ASEAN, the region has become more stable, the likelyhood of a regional flashpoint is remote.

 

[marxist_command]

I may be wrong, but Indonesia is not like India or Malaysia, it doesn't have a strong, separately funded Coast Guard to speak of. Patrol is done by Navy ex-East German Parchim light LSTs and obsolete light frigates (from the ex Dutch Leanders to '50-'60s vintage ex US light destroyer escorts...) plus a few '80s FAC(M) with MM38 Exocets. There also a few Navy CN235s patrolling the air.
Virtually all of these assets need urgent replacement and maintenance, but the only planned replacement is 4 corvettes building in the Netherlands.

Yes. but those corvettes were build to strengthening east naval command. They will be placed in Surabaya. For coast guarding we use FPB57 - Nav V series from PT PAL just like KRI HIU. This is the related web

http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/KRI_Hiu

 

[falcon_snack]

Seems to me these all related to very limited informations about Indo's military. Subs, sukhois, helos, UAVs, corvettes, local LAVs, and others have already in list to develop Indo's military capabilities which since '98 has turned down.

Why subs? well, it will needed as striking force much as destroyers fregates, corvettes, FACs, etc. Nobody want war but all military in the world will think the same: hope for the best, prepare for the worst, right? that's why countries in the world keep developing their military capabilities as far as they can, including Indonesia. And for Navy not only subs, there're also vessels for patrol in the list. Locally built PC-36 and PC-40, totally around 12-15 PC has been made so far and goes on. Also LPD from South Korea, 1 ship operational (need 5 of them, 2 may be built locally))for supporting force. Yes, eventhough lack of fund, Indo keep trying to build their defence posture that suits to its geostrategy and goepolitics.

Btw, Indonesia has no defence pacts with any countries so if 'something' happened in the future, who willing to help if not herself?

All those procurements already planned as in long term defence development for Indonesia's Navy from 2005-2024 as green water navy. You can check it (too bad no english section) in http://www.tnial.mil.id/renbang.htm

 

[contedicavour]

Seems to me these all related to very limited informations about Indo's military. Subs, sukhois, helos, UAVs, corvettes, local LAVs, and others have already in list to develop Indo's military capabilities which since '98 has turned down.

Why subs? well, it will needed as striking force much as destroyers fregates, corvettes, FACs, etc. Nobody want war but all military in the world will think the same: hope for the best, prepare for the worst, right? that's why countries in the world keep developing their military capabilities as far as they can, including Indonesia. And for Navy not only subs, there're also vessels for patrol in the list. Locally built PC-36 and PC-40, totally around 12-15 PC has been made so far and goes on. Also LPD from South Korea, 1 ship operational (need 5 of them, 2 may be built locally))for supporting force. Yes, eventhough lack of fund, Indo keep trying to build their defence posture that suits to its geostrategy and goepolitics.

Btw, Indonesia has no defence pacts with any countries so if 'something' happened in the future, who willing to help if not herself?

All those procurements already planned as in long term defence development for Indonesia's Navy from 2005-2024 as green water navy. You can check it (too bad no english section) in http://www.tnial.mil.id/renbang.htm

Thanks for the info - could you translate for us the part indicating future procurement targets ? Other than the Sigma 1700 tonne- corvettes, what is planned to replace the Dutch Van Spejk/Leander FFGs for example ? You mention LPDs and PCs, but what about the main surface fleet ships ?

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys can anyone tell wether indonesia has a marine commando battalion,and if so what two man subs they use?

amur submarines would be extremely usefull for the insertion of such commando teams in a very stealthy manner.

 

[falcon_snack]

Thanks for the info - could you translate for us the part indicating future procurement targets ? Other than the Sigma 1700 tonne- corvettes, what is planned to replace the Dutch Van Spejk/Leander FFGs for example ? You mention LPDs and PCs, but what about the main surface fleet ships ?

cheers

well, it's not exactly say about future procurement targets but the needs for it untill 2024 shows that the navy should have totally 274 vessels for striking, patrolling and supporting force. Also for aircrafts, marines, naval bases.
Many rumors in local medias said about a destroyer, couple of frigates/corvettes from Russia but don't think it will come soon in the future...perhaps after 2009 and if the budget allowed or it will end up in papers only. http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20060105.A06&irec=5
Also planning to upgraded the existing combatan ships (fatahillah class?).
So far no news about replacing the ageing Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk class FFG...

 

[falcon_snack]

hey guys can anyone tell wether indonesia has a marine commando battalion,and if so what two man subs they use?

amur submarines would be extremely usefull for the insertion of such commando teams in a very stealthy manner.

Yes, Indonesia has it. Kopaska/Navy (Indonesia's SEAL)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOPASKA and Taifib/ Marines (Marine recon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifib) . The best of those two elite's will be chosen as Denjaka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denjaka or can be check at: http://indonesiaeliteforces.tripod.com

 

[contedicavour]

well, it's not exactly say about future procurement targets but the needs for it untill 2024 shows that the navy should have totally 274 vessels for striking, patrolling and supporting force. Also for aircrafts, marines, naval bases.
Many rumors in local medias said about a destroyer, couple of frigates/corvettes from Russia but don't think it will come soon in the future...perhaps after 2009 and if the budget allowed or it will end up in papers only. http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20060105.A06&irec=5
Also planning to upgraded the existing combatan ships (fatahillah class?).
So far no news about replacing the ageing Ahmad Yani/Van Speijk class FFG...

OK thanks for the information, it helps a lot !
This does confirm my feeling that the SSK deal show bad priorization... the FFGs needed replacement or modernization before the submarine fleet is expanded... or else forget the 274 vessels target stated in the linked article !

cheers

 

[falcon_snack]

OK thanks for the information, it helps a lot !
This does confirm my feeling that the SSK deal show bad priorization... the FFGs needed replacement or modernization before the submarine fleet is expanded... or else forget the 274 vessels target stated in the linked article !

cheers

Not mentioned at the media doesn't mean no plan for that . Numbers of Parchim n fatahillah class can be used as sea patrol platform. It's just a problem of budgetary. Sigma class corvettes can play role for Navy's FFG for temporary coz it has also same fire power as Ahmad Yani class FFG.

 

[contedicavour]

Not mentioned at the media doesn't mean no plan for that . Numbers of Parchim n fatahillah class can be used as sea patrol platform. It's just a problem of budgetary. Sigma class corvettes can play role for Navy's FFG for temporary coz it has also same fire power as Ahmad Yani class FFG.

Ok, but the Parchims are LSTs and thus logically slow ships. Fatahillas are better, but there are only 3 and they are now getting really old.
To put it differently, the Indonesian Navy would need at least 12-16 Sigma ...

Just a question : what about the plan to build OPVH based on the Italian Comandanti class ? It is even mentioned in Jane's Fighting Ships 06/07 but I haven't heard anything since. Those 90+ meter long 24kn 1800 tonne ships with 76/62 SR and medium helo could bring quite a contribution to patrol efforts.

cheers