Indonesia's acquisition of Russian submarines

[atilla]

uhhhh so hard

Rediculous. Plain arrogant stupidity on the part of their government. In my opinion it would be show of disrespect to all other nations who have helped them, and for their own people. Until they start to tow the line on internal and international issues eg people smugling, piracy, poverty, famon, there should be no further aid given to them.

Besides, they wont be a threat or deterent, they wont work and they (the Indonesians) wont be able to maintain them anyways... and surely no signifcant problem for the RAN (I do say this very nationalisticaly however)

Im sorry but Indonesia is a nation whose government fires me up

why u have anger ?? ı realy count understand the ıssue can austrıla be dangreous for ındonesıa ???? realy ı m out of ınfo ın thıs as far as ı know there ıs no poınt for australıa or ındonesıa for beıng rıvals and sıngapor ıs a small state what wıll change even they have 100 submarıne same for malısıa they are sımılar ı thınk ausıes should focus on chınese naval more then ındonesıa ??? what u thınk ??

 

[renjer]

All due respect but i think this (if true) is a silly procurement decision. Having these boats doesn't mean they will automatically be able to effectively manage them. I would say (and I say this without being excessively nationalistic) that the RAN would have little concern about these new boats. Effective crews would be a long way off as would effective submarine tactics. If it ever came to it this type of platform would be a priority target and I contend that RAN Collins would make short work of the Indo subs.

IMO Indonesia would be far better off spending their money on OPV's and missle corvettes. Fast, small ships would be a much better procurement choice. Indonesia could get volume plus capability if they went down this path. Furthermore a decision along these lines would also allow the Indo's to spare some change for patrol aircraft which are also in short supply.

Just becasuse someone has some shiny kit does not mean that it is an instant worry. This smacks of Russian bombers in Indo colours.....nfloorl:

I have re-read my post. I can't find where I said that purchase of these submarines would constitute a military threat to the RAN. Is there any reason why you have assumed this?

Also, your response seem to indicate that you agree with aaaditya's view that the TNI-AL intend to use these boats primarily against Australia. I don't. IMV, there is an equal chance that these will be used against Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines, India, China or any other of Indonesia's neighbours.

I agree with you that the learning curve will be steep. All the more reason for the TNI-AL to begin sooner rather than later. Lastly, I also agree with you that Indonesia has better acquisition priorities. Unfortunately, this is not a decision for me to make.

 

[icelord]

why u have anger ?? ı realy count understand the ıssue can austrıla be dangreous for ındonesıa ???? realy ı m out of ınfo ın thıs as far as ı know there ıs no poınt for australıa or ındonesıa for beıng rıvals and sıngapor ıs a small state what wıll change even they have 100 submarıne same for malısıa they are sımılar ı thınk ausıes should focus on chınese naval more then ındonesıa ??? what u thınk ??

Australia is a nation of 21 million, with more land then the USA, and its next to a country of 250 million with a thousand islands and little room to expand, although i'm not saying this is a direct reason, Australia also has a much higher living standard compared with Indo. We're also a little pushy when it comes to the region and its trouble, Timor Lest was an exapmle of a problem we fixed, much to the delight of Indonesia and its military, seeing as how they were part of the problem. Also those idiots seeking a free and independant West Papua don't help our relationship at any time. Since Sukarno tried to put a couple of missiles on our door stop, Cuban Style, we havn't been too close, add to that the whole Corby/Bali BS the media made, and you won't get a favoured pic from indo, plus allowing the Bali Bombers to live is frustrating for some.

Indo are no immediate threat to Aus, and i doubt they will be unless something drastic happens, As has been said, Phillo and Singapore, malaysia might be bigger target, Malaysia still hates Indo for the whole invasion thing, and i doubt indo would do anything stupid there as we still have troops on rotation in Malaysia for "training" courses

On top of all this, Jimah Islameah is a crack pot with guns who could threaten us at any time, and a few Surface ships could have secured the Islands better to lessen their ability to move and operate, if anything, a few OPVs would have shown Indo is keen on Anti-terror, instead of Regional Terror

 

[atilla]

every one dıvıded

ıt seems we all are dıvıdıng the world thırd word corraptıon and place for ıslamıc trrorısm thıs remınds me the sutuatıon just before WW1 when west thought they are sperıor rest ıs sıck men of europe D do any of u remember thıs story ???? ı do because so lınk to ındonesıan AUS weapon sale ıt ıs all part of same problem 3th world or terror states ın whıch some acusatıons seems rıght and ınterestın to see other part also actually russıan was always vs to ıslam ın hıstorıcal bases so how come so much russıan weapon sales to some states lıke ındonesıa ex ex and also does these subs wıll be able to fıre mıssıles ??

 

[Grand Danois]

Well, states that buy Russian weapons usually do not have that much money to throw around.

I don't see that any nation outside of Russia would be willing to supply Indonesia with anything other than what they need: surface patrol assets.

Has nothing to do with "divide and rule".

A state that has succumbed to corruption and the dysfunctionalities that follow, could very well be called a Sick Man.

I know the metaphor, but it is rare to to see it being used.

 

[abramsteve]

My anger runs deep and its not the least to do with the Bali bombers getting off... Love thy neighbour? Only if its both ways, and with the level of respect they show for us...

Anyways I should appologise for getting to political issues.

A question though, do they operate subs at the moment? If so what class?

 

[atilla]

so ıf same powers today remaın ın same polıcıes ın other words same DOCTORS they can ıdentıfy who ıs sıck who ıs not when ıt comes to dıvede and rule ı thınk sımılar ıs ın between malısıa sıngapur ındonesıa just sıck mens are changıng some tımes ıraq or syrıa could be sıck also D or ın new meta terrost state one of great leader saıd once ( never forget ın future same powers wıll try agaın ) so seems they start to try

 

[Grand Danois]

I think it is a stretch to read Iraq etc. into this. They are not analogue situations.

I believe the you concept are looking for is "failed states", rather than "Sick Man". They imply different things.

 

[Todjaeger]

Australia is a nation of 21 million, with more land then the USA...

Sorry Icelord, have to correct you here. Australia is about the same size as the lower 48 contigous states, less New Mexico more or less. US minue Hawaii and Alaska is about 100k sq. miles larger than Australia, so that's about 256k sq km. Pretty close though.

Atilla, I believe the issues different other members have with Indonesia purchasing SSKs is where such a force would fit in the region and within Indonesia. The article mentioned getting the SSKs as part of a "strategic need" but given the geographic and economic situation, I myself feel that such a purchase doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Abramsteve, I think (repeat think) they currently have a pair of German 209 Type 1300 diesels. Not so sure exactly how well maintained they are, but they have them.

Given the current state of the Indonesian Navy's surface fleet, it is believed that a number of vessels are not available or inoperable due to poor or insufficient maintenance. Not being military myself I don't know for certain, but I think it reasonable to assume that a submarine would require more, and certainly more careful, maintenance than a surface vessel of similar size or displacement. Similarly, because of the risks during operation, a more carefully trained crew is required.

With what other nations see as the current and near-term threats facing Indonesia, a fleet of 12 purchased SSKs, even spread over 18 years does not seem the best option.

From my perspective there are basically four different types of "missions" that a larger Indonesia patrol sub force would engage in. Listed below, they are:
1. Sea denial-defensive: attacking shipping of an attacking/invading force in Indonesian waters.
2. Sea denial-offensive: Attacking shipping as of an offensive against a foreign nation, in international or foreign waters.
3. Intelligence/reconnaissance: Using submerged subs to covertly monitor and report on coastal or waterborne traffic, piracy monitoring, etc.
4. Showing the Flag: missions to show the Indonesia flag or what Indonesia has.

Point by point...
For #1. Given all the islands Indonesia has, attacks on surface shipping could be carried out, most likely cheaper of more effectively, from units based off of islands. Either aircraft, small boat/corvette, or even directly from the land with artillery of land-based SSM.

For #2. With subs, yes Indonesia could attack enemy shipping, but Indonesia would be hard-pressed to take advantage of any gains made. With the nearest nations all being mutual defence members of the FPDA, Indonesia would have to contend with, and fight off, all it's surrounding nations if it choses to try and attack someone nearby. Never mind potential US involvement either separately or through the ANZUS treaty with Australia. For any other nation further away, again it comes back to the surface fleet. Without a sufficiently capable surface fleet, any gains via the SSK fleet would be not be able to be exploited.

For #3. Without a sufficiently reliable and advanced communications network, SSKs don't make good intelligence platforms. Also, if part of the intended use would be to monitor for piracy or other things within Indonesian waters, a fleet of patrol boats would be better suited to operate in these restricted waters. They would be able to get closer to shore, support landing or boarding parties, and could engage pirate vessels more effectively. After all, a 21" torpedoe is great to sink a ship, but is really overkill for a RIB filled with guys carrying rifles.

For #4. Yes, a SSK fleet could show the flag, but given the costs, there are better options that would be of greater use in choices 1-3, 3 in particular.

Interested to hear what people think.

-Cheers

 

[kams]

Indonesia wants to buy Israeli UAVs

Indonesia is planning to purchase Searcher Mark-II unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) from Israel, according to Indonesian National Defense Forces (TNI) Commander, Marshal Djoko Suyanto.

Israeli sources refused to comment on these reports.

The Indonesian Defense Minister, Juwono Sudarsono, said that the procurement of UAVs from another country, like Israel, was a realistic decision because similar locally-built equipment with the same technology was needed by the Indonesian defense forces.

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Sudarsono explained that Indonesia had tried to develop a UAV prototype last year, but its coverage and range were limited.

"We still need time and huge amounts of money to develop these aircraft both for military and commercial purposes. To upgrade the existing prototype, we still need further study, time and huge sums of money," Juwono said.

The ministry's research and development agency is still studying the result of research and development of the main weaponry system for reconnaissance, aircraft and ships.

The news that the predominantly Muslim Indonesia was planning to procure military equipment from Israel, a country with which it has no diplomatic ties, resulted in considerable criticism by legislators in parliament.

Some legislators claimed that procuring the UAVs from Israel is in violation of laws and regulations and accused the government of ignoring required procedures.

However, Djoko denied a statement by the House of Representatives that in planning the purchase of UAVs from Israel, the government had ignored the required procedures.

Djoko said that the plan to purchase the reconnaissance aircraft was initiated by the TNI because its technical specifications met that of all three services.

"Then we made surveys here and there, not only in one country. The surveys were conducted by a joint team with personnel from the Army, Navy, Air Force, the TNI's strategic intelligence agency BAIS and the ministry of defense," he said.

UAV from Israel

Now this is an interesting development. Israel is willing to sell to Indo despite not having a diplomatic relationship. Atleast this purchase makes more sense

 

[icelord]

UAV from Israel

Now this is an interesting development. Israel is willing to sell to Indo despite not having a diplomatic relationship. Atleast this purchase makes more sense

They didn't want Indonesia in Lebanon because of no acknoledgment of the State of Israel, and no diplomatic ties, but they can sell a UAV to supply a country whose Military and leadership has to explain its Human Right Violations...The all mighty dollar Rules All Else!

Sorry Icelord, have to correct you here. Australia is about the same size as the lower 48 contigous states, less New Mexico more or less. US minue Hawaii and Alaska is about 100k sq. miles larger than Australia, so that's about 256k sq km. Pretty close though.

:tomato and the fact we don't count Tasmania in anything with the mainland lowers that figure lol

 

[Todjaeger]

UAV from Israel

Now this is an interesting development. Israel is willing to sell to Indo despite not having a diplomatic relationship. Atleast this purchase makes more sense

Assuming Israel will provide parts and Indonesian can maintain them, then UAVs would be a better choice than submarines in my view. Basically anything Indonesia can get that would allow them greater control and situational awareness in their territory. Observation/patrol aircraft, patrol boats, etc. Submarines are very good at certain roles, but unless they are being used for those roles, their use is limited. I suppose the world will just have to wait and see.

-Cheers

 

[abramsteve]

I agree, UAVs would be a far better choice for Indonesia. Not only would it provide them with greater situational awareness, it would allow them to be more effective in dealing with terrorist and people smugglers (provided they were used in this role which I personaly doubt)

 

[johngage]

In my opinion this was a bad purchase. The Indonesians would have been better off buying more FAC's or OPV's to attack the problem of piracy. Even an LST would have been better as they could have been used for humanitarian missions if another tsunami or earthquake happened. Submarines are very expensive to maintain and if the Indonesians are not carefully, they will not be able to keep them operational for long.

 

[contedicavour]

Fully agree, let's just compare costs :

> SSK = 300 million USD each in a Western shipyard, let's say Russia can provide the sub for 200 each. Already a stretch hypothesis, but let's stick to it.

> LST of medium size (130 meter 8000 tonne for ex) = 80 million USD each

> OPVH (approx 90 meter long 1500 tonne for ex) = 80 million USD each

> OPVH with no integrated combat system (let's say a 70 meter 1300 tonne) = 60 million USD

> FAC(M)s with SSMs and CIWS or Sadral-type short range missile systems = 40 million USD.

So, for every SSK bought, Indonesia can have 2.5 medium size LSTs, 2.5 big OPVH, or 3.3 smaller OPVH, or 5 FAC(M)s.... and I'm not even mentioning the maintenance costs already highlighted in posts above.
To summarize, instead of the 6 SSKs, Indonesia could have completed its fleet with 5 medium size LSTs, 5 big OPVH, 10 FAC(M)s.

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

Fully agree, let's just compare costs :

> SSK = 300 million USD each in a Western shipyard, let's say Russia can provide the sub for 200 each. Already a stretch hypothesis, but let's stick to it.

> LST of medium size (130 meter 8000 tonne for ex) = 80 million USD each

> OPVH (approx 90 meter long 1500 tonne for ex) = 80 million USD each

> OPVH with no integrated combat system (let's say a 70 meter 1300 tonne) = 60 million USD

> FAC(M)s with SSMs and CIWS or Sadral-type short range missile systems = 40 million USD.

So, for every SSK bought, Indonesia can have 2.5 medium size LSTs, 2.5 big OPVH, or 3.3 smaller OPVH, or 5 FAC(M)s.... and I'm not even mentioning the maintenance costs already highlighted in posts above.
To summarize, instead of the 6 SSKs, Indonesia could have completed its fleet with 5 medium size LSTs, 5 big OPVH, 10 FAC(M)s.

cheers

but without submarines the indonesian navy would not have a credible force capable of offensive or defensive action against its neighbours,lst's are usefull but does indonesia really nead 5 medium sized lst's ,lst's are extremely usefull for disaster management ,however major disasters are not that common indonesians do not have a maritime assault force large enough for carrying out an invasion using the lst's also lst's would require submarine escorts because if they venture out alone they would be sitting ducks to enemy submarines and warships.

as far as the off shore patrol vessels and their intended use against piracy is concerned it is the responsibility of the indonesian coast guard,iam sure acquisition funding for offshore patrol vessels would come from a seperate source in the defence budget.

 

[johngage]

I am no expert on the Indonesian navy but from what I can gather they are struggling to maintain the present assets which they currently have, let alone purchase new ships or submarines. Major disasters are also fairly common in Indonesia. They are in a geographically active area of the world and volcanoes, earthquakes and landslides are not unheard of. I am not sure about the Indonesian coast guard but I know that the Marine police are also involved in anti-piracy ops. The problem is that the Indonesian archipelago consists of approximately 13,000 islands, and I think that the Indons need every ship they can get.

 

[icelord]

There newest Major fleet vessel is a Ex-RN Frigate that was decomm in 1980s, so they don't exactly have a grand fleet, i think they purchased a few missle boats recently, thats wat makes this sub purchase stranger, both are more offensive then defensive, indo up to something we don't know about?

 

[abramsteve]

Probably. aaaditya, why do they need offensive capabilities? They have more than enough problems at home without looking for some abroad.

 

[icelord]

Probably. aaaditya, why do they need offensive capabilities? They have more than enough problems at home without looking for some abroad.

nfloorl: Its so sad its true, and if those 2 dicks get released today:nono , then they'll need all the defensive they can get:ar15