Indonesia's acquisition of Russian submarines

[contedicavour]

Dear all,

as you have probably read on the news on this site, Indonesia is negotiating an acquisition of several Russian Kilo or Amur/Lada submarines.
Other than the fact that it reminds me of Sukarno's tentative acquisition of Whiskey class submarines in the '60s, this acquisition programme seems to me a big mistake in priority setting...
For a huge country with hundreds of islands and problems with patrolling all its territorial waters and busy waterways, priority should be on reinforcing the surface fleet with patrol assets and add more patrol aircrafts. Instead, Indonesia will buy attack submarines complete with Klub-S cruise missiles with money that would allow easily for tens of OPVs.
I hope the only logic behind this programme isn't that Singapore and Malaysia have submarines, so bigger neighbor Indonesia need more than the 2 existing Type 209s...

What's your opinion on this acquisition ?

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

What use would Indonesia have from them. They would still be outgunned by the navies that matter in the region.

Better ways to spend that money. (where did they get those?)

 

[RubiconNZ]

Its probably to try and shadow those pesky Aussies that lurk in the depths I agree it is a prestige matter, however surely it would cause the ADF to re-evaluate there ASW doctrine, Kilos' are decent boats for sure...

 

[f2000]

yeah the indonesian try to defend themselves especially from the aussies.
with those boats they will make the aussies think twice when play with them.
n of cos they want to balance malaysia's subs instead of singapore.
its a gud procument made by the indonesian..

 

[renjer]

Militarily I think its a good purchase as well. Although I don't understand why they would want to split it between Kilos and Amurs.

 

[contedicavour]

What use would Indonesia have from them. They would still be outgunned by the navies that matter in the region.

Better ways to spend that money. (where did they get those?)

Well the Indonesian economy is faring well lately, with a stable currency and good prices for raw materials extracted there... though I thought most of the defence budget had gone on the new Sukhois and on the 4 corvettes being built in the Netherlands.

I hadn't thought of the use of Kilo/Lada/Amurs as potential anti-Australian weapons. Ok the subs may be a real pain for the Australian Collins SSKs and for the modernized OHP FFGs, but I would have expected the Indonesian government to priorize security in its territorial waters & EEZ over cold war games with Australia

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

these submarines are also capable of shallow water operations (especially the amur lada) and can hence be very effectively be used the blockade the straits of mallaca,also iam sure that they would have adequate intelligence gathering capabilities and a limited anti piracy roles (keep track of hijacked vessels and interception of communications etc,well nothing would be better than a big fat indonesian submarine under them to keep the pirates quite).they will also provide indonesia with a considerable land and sea attack capability.

 

[akj]

The acquisition is a significant one and will be a little problem for the major navies in the region (Australia and possibly India).
But i dont understand the 4+2 split..They should have taken all 6 amurs..if they wanted larger boats, they cud have bought amur 1650..

 

[Grand Danois]

Now Indonesia just need

• the money.
  
• a decade of induction into service.

Indonesia won't buy these subs IMV. They really have no use for them.

 

[contedicavour]

these submarines are also capable of shallow water operations (especially the amur lada) and can hence be very effectively be used the blockade the straits of mallaca,also iam sure that they would have adequate intelligence gathering capabilities and a limited anti piracy roles (keep track of hijacked vessels and interception of communications etc,well nothing would be better than a big fat indonesian submarine under them to keep the pirates quite).they will also provide indonesia with a considerable land and sea attack capability.

I fully agree with your assessment that the new subs will provide indonesia with land and sea attack capability. Though why should it be a priority ? Does Indonesia feel threatened ?
I'm more sceptical about the argument that the subs can be used to deter piracy attacks or frighten pirates aboard a ship... unless the plan is to sink the stolen ship ? Besides, with the money needed to buy 1 sub, the Navy could buy 5 big OPVHs, which are btw much faster than a SSK.

cheers

 

[cherry]

Perhaps this might be the catalyst for Australian obtaining something along the lines of LCS with ASW capability, maybe even to replace the Huon Mine Hunters when their LOT is up? A ship with ASW and anit-mine capabilities with the added ability to go to war in the littorals would be an ideal replacement for them.

 

[Cootamundra]

Militarily I think its a good purchase as well. Although I don't understand why they would want to split it between Kilos and Amurs.

All due respect but i think this (if true) is a silly procurement decision. Having these boats doesn't mean they will automatically be able to effectively manage them. I would say (and I say this without being excessively nationalistic) that the RAN would have little concern about these new boats. Effective crews would be a long way off as would effective submarine tactics. If it ever came to it this type of platform would be a priority target and I contend that RAN Collins would make short work of the Indo subs.

IMO Indonesia would be far better off spending their money on OPV's and missle corvettes. Fast, small ships would be a much better procurement choice. Indonesia could get volume plus capability if they went down this path. Furthermore a decision along these lines would also allow the Indo's to spare some change for patrol aircraft which are also in short supply.

Just becasuse someone has some shiny kit does not mean that it is an instant worry. This smacks of Russian bombers in Indo colours.....nfloorl:

 

[Transient]

The rationale behind any such purchase is not to intimidate Indonesia's neighbours, but to fool themselves into thinking that they could do so.

 

[icelord]

will be a little problem for the major navies in the region (Australia and possibly India).

HAHAHAHAHAHHA
Well, at least we got something to use the seasprites on

Perhaps this might be the catalyst for Australian obtaining something along the lines of LCS with ASW capability, maybe even to replace the Huon Mine Hunters when their LOT is up? A ship with ASW and anit-mine capabilities with the added ability to go to war in the littorals would be an ideal replacement for them.

Doubt it, as much as the LCS would be sweet for RAN, and the idea its Aussie designed would be great for local industry, more then likely they'll pass. ANZAC has ASW capability, and the seasprite is mainly ASW Helo.
As for Huon replacement, thats a long way away.

C'mon, we really see the collins having trouble with these?
$50 says for their first 6mths of operations, the collins stalks them for kicks.:rotfl
I doubt the new indo sub would be too troubling for RAN, a concern that they have them none the less, but defence wise, good luck penetraiting the coast, although, could this be a new means of getting illegal fishing with the increase in patrols...

Does this mean a MRC ASW Corvette would be good?hehe

 

[abramsteve]

Rediculous. Plain arrogant stupidity on the part of their government. In my opinion it would be show of disrespect to all other nations who have helped them, and for their own people. Until they start to tow the line on internal and international issues eg people smugling, piracy, poverty, famon, there should be no further aid given to them.

Besides, they wont be a threat or deterent, they wont work and they (the Indonesians) wont be able to maintain them anyways... and surely no signifcant problem for the RAN (I do say this very nationalisticaly however)

Im sorry but Indonesia is a nation whose government fires me up

 

[aaaditya]

I fully agree with your assessment that the new subs will provide indonesia with land and sea attack capability. Though why should it be a priority ? Does Indonesia feel threatened ?
I'm more sceptical about the argument that the subs can be used to deter piracy attacks or frighten pirates aboard a ship... unless the plan is to sink the stolen ship ? Besides, with the money needed to buy 1 sub, the Navy could buy 5 big OPVHs, which are btw much faster than a SSK.

cheers

indonesia definitely feels threatened particularly after australia's involvement in the timor islands uprising.the subs can be used for surveillance and intelligence gathering and also for launching special commando teams,the amur 1650 are considered to be particularly suitable for this role.

opv's are more vulnerable than a submarine and are not nearly as versatile as a submarine,they cannot be easily shifted from a defensive to an offensive role as a submarine can.

 

[icelord]

Im sorry but Indonesia is a nation whose government fires me up

Easy now, love thy neighbour...and his wife

Rediculous. Plain arrogant stupidity on the part of their government. In my opinion it would be show of disrespect to all other nations who have helped them, and for their own people. Until they start to tow the line on internal and international issues eg people smugling, piracy, poverty, famon, there should be no further aid given to them.

I'm quite sure we'll still be waiting in 50years for the same things to be fixed, and in indonesia, you could have a hundred coups and Government changeovers, that don't mean nothing, the military still rule, and they get what they want, and thats a really cool sub with the machine that goes ping.

indonesia definitely feels threatened particularly after australia's involvement in the timor islands uprising

Plus the whole refugees fleeing Papua didn't help our relationship, but is it more of a deterent then a defensive measure, really, they got nothing on the collins, even the USN had trouble finding them, let alone a 2nd rate Submarine service with poor maintanence record and low budget.
This is all posture and no class, should have stuck with a decent surface fleet, and i doubt that they will upgrade their equipment too much, so makes easier for jamming in the future. Hell, who knows, they might do something with them....scrap iron HA!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

This all smells like shiny new toys and sabre polishing to me. It seems the indo's keep making acuisitions that arn't based on their needs in reality. Just like those shiny new sukohoi's they bought a few months ago without any weapons to equip them, when they really needed a decent airlift capability. Those Kilo's are going to be a nice ego boost for some indo brass, but there not going to adress thier navy's real problems at the minet, where smaller surface platforms would. Are they trying to slow the gap in capabilities thats getting wider by the minet between them and their principle adversaries??? Are a few new SSK's and Sukahois going to adress the ballance between the indo's and the ADF, Chinise or Indians??? No way. Just another stupid decission baced on ego rather than reality.

P.S. i doubt a Kilo with a fresh crew would be much more than breakfast for a collins or an OHP.

 

[Sea Toby]

Many third world nations have corruption. I suspect the Russians have a very good salesman in Indonesia. I agree, you would think Indonesia would acquire OPVs and sealift ships considering the number of islands.

 

[contedicavour]

Well well to summarize some Indonesian generals are priorizing acquisition of systems suitable to "play chess" with their neighbors rather than those that would ensure priority n°1, ie full control of (and security in) territorial waters and EEZ.
A brilliant waste of money... except for the Russian defence industry.

cheers