Can BAE Systems make a credible stealth UCAV on their own in the near future as they are supposedly going to? Their COREX Raven UAV is apparently stealthy and they have been working on flapless technology (Eclipse project http://www.amtjets.com/gallery_bae.html) which seems very relevant. But can they do it and what export threat will they pose to US and pan-European efforts?
British Stealth technology- how good?
- Thread starter Brit
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CORAX Raven certainly looks the part.
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/19/Navigation/196/203649/BAE+unveils+its+UCAV+secrets.html
The now-allegedlly closed FOAS (Future Offensive Air System) Programme was heavily funded and officially produced little. Rumours however abound that a flying protortype was built, the design it was claimed, shared many characteristics with the deffunct-Grumman A-12.
BAE also built a full-scale manufacturing model of a design that was not too dissimilar to the JSF. This model was used for extensive radar testing. Unfortunate it never got beyond this stage of testing because it did look quite a nice design.
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/19/Navigation/196/203649/BAE+unveils+its+UCAV+secrets.html
The now-allegedlly closed FOAS (Future Offensive Air System) Programme was heavily funded and officially produced little. Rumours however abound that a flying protortype was built, the design it was claimed, shared many characteristics with the deffunct-Grumman A-12.
BAE also built a full-scale manufacturing model of a design that was not too dissimilar to the JSF. This model was used for extensive radar testing. Unfortunate it never got beyond this stage of testing because it did look quite a nice design.
CORAX Raven certainly looks the part.
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/19/Navigation/196/203649/BAE+unveils+its+UCAV+secrets.html
The now-allegedlly closed FOAS (Future Offensive Air System) Programme was heavily funded and officially produced little. Rumours however abound that a flying protortype was built, the design it was claimed, shared many characteristics with the deffunct-Grumman A-12.
BAE also built a full-scale manufacturing model of a design that was not too dissimilar to the JSF. This model was used for extensive radar testing. Unfortunate it never got beyond this stage of testing because it did look quite a nice design.
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/19/Navigation/196/203649/BAE+unveils+its+UCAV+secrets.html
The now-allegedlly closed FOAS (Future Offensive Air System) Programme was heavily funded and officially produced little. Rumours however abound that a flying protortype was built, the design it was claimed, shared many characteristics with the deffunct-Grumman A-12.
BAE also built a full-scale manufacturing model of a design that was not too dissimilar to the JSF. This model was used for extensive radar testing. Unfortunate it never got beyond this stage of testing because it did look quite a nice design.
God i hope that the UK UCAV does not have a vertical stablizer. Well, the Swedes are joining witrh Neurone and the UK going it alone ? Without european or american involvement, i can not see this has a good path unless we in the Uk are developing the UCAV technology well in advance of the europeans, or that some how we think we are going to sell it big to everyone else. however, based on the last 2 generations of airborne combat platforms, MRCA, EFA, JSF and to a lesser extent jaguar, the Harrier II why would the UK go it alone now ?
thoughts please..:shudder
thoughts please..:shudder
I'm going to guess, it might have something to do with loosing our capabilities to manufacture and produce complete solutions. We're loosing our Surface ship building capabilities etc. I think the gov now thinks that this is some thing they can spend onn which has a future (thta we can realistically develop, Manufacture and market). Or it Might just be because of a justification study by DSTL (MOD) they're quite convincing (Cost Issue).Dr Phobus said:
Well due to mass mergers the net result is less industry, the UK is in a better postion than most nations in this respect. I remember reading somewhere that ther MoD wanted to see the UK move forward with UCAV technology. Still my orginal question remains about UCAV development and industrail intentions.P.A.F said:
I feel the statmeent the surface ships industery is alomst dead is a little bit of an exaggeration, however, no one will disagree that there is going to be a lost less ship building ability in the future, sadley, a lot less need to.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Well the BAE Systems COREX Raven UAV is a tailless design. But I think in general the common view is that whilst tailless aircraft are generally more stealthy, it is at the cost of agility -so whether it is tailless has more to do with the intended roles and mission profiles than merely the ability to build tailless aircraft (which BAE Systems clearly has).
of interest, the Saab FILUR has a vertical tail despite all the pre-flight artists images showing it as tailless.
of interest, the Saab FILUR has a vertical tail despite all the pre-flight artists images showing it as tailless.
Well, I see you options, 1- USA alliance in relation to UCAV, the question is do they want us ? what can we really contribute save money that will truely help UK industry ? interesting questions. 2- The pan european Neuron program, be a part of a bigger picture be have a real work share (maybe). 3- go it alone, this WILL not happen.Izzy1 said:
Agree with the options Dr Phobus, go alone is a non-starter for a number of reasons - mainly financial.
I do know that Ministry of Defence has been negotiating with the US with regards participation in the X-45 UCAV programme. BAE Systems' North America Division has already received contracts from the US DoD with regards feasability design studies and manufacture process.
Neuron would have been a nice alternative to yet another UK bit-part in a US-dominated defence programme. Yet it, is seemingly becoming dominated by EADS - and as has been seen in some of Europe's latest joint-venture attempts (Horizon Class Destroyer; TRIGAT MR ATGW; Boxer MRAV IFV for example), securing agreements concening a common specification and capabilty between European and the UK's armed forces seems to be nowadays near impossible.
I do know that Ministry of Defence has been negotiating with the US with regards participation in the X-45 UCAV programme. BAE Systems' North America Division has already received contracts from the US DoD with regards feasability design studies and manufacture process.
Neuron would have been a nice alternative to yet another UK bit-part in a US-dominated defence programme. Yet it, is seemingly becoming dominated by EADS - and as has been seen in some of Europe's latest joint-venture attempts (Horizon Class Destroyer; TRIGAT MR ATGW; Boxer MRAV IFV for example), securing agreements concening a common specification and capabilty between European and the UK's armed forces seems to be nowadays near impossible.
Less of a problem between UK and the Netherlands. In fact UK/Ned are the only permament integrated amphibious marine capability in Europe.Izzy1 said:
At a synergy level, it would be smarter for UK/Ned to expand upon that relationship.
Neuron is a dead horse for UK if she wants to maintain access to US progs. The current ITARs kerfuffle of JSF is demonstrating that loud and clear. The CVF debacle also hilights that.
The whole thing just sums up the fact that the govt has totally lost it, when it comes to defence. Saying that, I doubt if any other political party would do any better.
As someone said, it’s all down to money, well, the unwillingness to spend it more like. (We are the 4th richest country in the world aren’t we????)
In my opinion the UK should invest (and produce) BRITISH BUILT UCAV's and new manned combat aircraft. Those who say 'it can't be done' or its 'impossible without European help' should look back to the past, a past when this country did things on her own, a past when 'can't' was no option.
I am not apposed in the slightest to cooperation with other countries but I am strongly apposed to politicians who have and will continue to hack away at our defence industry.
As someone said, it’s all down to money, well, the unwillingness to spend it more like. (We are the 4th richest country in the world aren’t we????)
In my opinion the UK should invest (and produce) BRITISH BUILT UCAV's and new manned combat aircraft. Those who say 'it can't be done' or its 'impossible without European help' should look back to the past, a past when this country did things on her own, a past when 'can't' was no option.
I am not apposed in the slightest to cooperation with other countries but I am strongly apposed to politicians who have and will continue to hack away at our defence industry.
BRIT: SAAB just used vertical tail at "filur" as a precaution during the first tests.
Alpha Epsilon
New Member
Some information.
1) Corax is not Raven, these are two different UAVs.
2) The new BAE Systems programme for a UCAV is Taranis, it will be bigger than Neuron and fly about 1-2 years earlier.
3) Generally speaking in autonomous systems the UK is quite cutting edge and in UAVs/UCAVs imo ahead of continental Europe.
Some examples, I am focussing on BAE Systems however there are also British or partly British UAVs under development and construction at other companies such as Thales UK, QinetiQ and many more.
UAVs/UCAVs by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Taranis 8000kgs - first flight 2010
2) BAE Raven - two built - first flight 2003
3) BAE Corax - one built - first flight 2004
4) BAE Herti - several built - first flight 2004
Stealth R&D conducted by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Replica - 1994 to 1999 R&D project - partially declassfied
2) Nightjar I&II - 1994-2007 - partially declassified
1) Corax is not Raven, these are two different UAVs.
2) The new BAE Systems programme for a UCAV is Taranis, it will be bigger than Neuron and fly about 1-2 years earlier.
3) Generally speaking in autonomous systems the UK is quite cutting edge and in UAVs/UCAVs imo ahead of continental Europe.
Some examples, I am focussing on BAE Systems however there are also British or partly British UAVs under development and construction at other companies such as Thales UK, QinetiQ and many more.
UAVs/UCAVs by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Taranis 8000kgs - first flight 2010
2) BAE Raven - two built - first flight 2003
3) BAE Corax - one built - first flight 2004
4) BAE Herti - several built - first flight 2004
Stealth R&D conducted by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Replica - 1994 to 1999 R&D project - partially declassfied
2) Nightjar I&II - 1994-2007 - partially declassified
Taranis... BAE's Corex Raven has already flown. It's already surpassing anything the FOAS (True FOAS) team at Warton has.
Some information.
1) Corax is not Raven, these are two different UAVs.
2) The new BAE Systems programme for a UCAV is Taranis, it will be bigger than Neuron and fly about 1-2 years earlier.
3) Generally speaking in autonomous systems the UK is quite cutting edge and in UAVs/UCAVs imo ahead of continental Europe.
Some examples, I am focussing on BAE Systems however there are also British or partly British UAVs under development and construction at other companies such as Thales UK, QinetiQ and many more.
UAVs/UCAVs by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Taranis 8000kgs - first flight 2010
2) BAE Raven - two built - first flight 2003
3) BAE Corax - one built - first flight 2004
4) BAE Herti - several built - first flight 2004
Stealth R&D conducted by BAE Systems in the UK
1) BAE Replica - 1994 to 1999 R&D project - partially declassfied
2) Nightjar I&II - 1994-2007 - partially declassified
Alpha - you should work for our Marketing Department. Not one of the above has a single camera aboard.
Alpha Epsilon
New Member
What do you mean by that? Herti has several cameras and a data link in a basic configuration, it is also testing a mini SAR radar. Weapons and hard points might be added later. The tests in Australia have been extremly successful with Herti automatically picking up and relaying images of opportunity targets (including kangaroos.).
Taranis will have two equipment/potential weapons bays.
What? It is not Corex Raven. One is called Corax, the other is the Raven. Taranis is another, larger UAV/UCAV. Corax and Raven have the same design fuselage, but the Corax has a significantly larger wing span than Raven. Raven is the design basis for the Taranis.
The question has been asked "Why isn't the UK joining other European nations to develop UCAVs"
My belief is that it has a lot to do with the sharing of US stealth technology research with the UK, albeit limited, I imagine. The UK would probably not be allowed to make use of the research in a European collaboration because the US would most likely want the research to be kept secret. If the UK went it alone, then this would not be a factor. The downside could perhaps be that this would also implicate the possibility of exports of the new UCAV.
I think, that since UCAVs are in their first generation (It will be the UK's and other European country's first UCAV for that matter), it is important for the UK to go it alone to maintain the ability to great and build innnovative designs.
My belief is that it has a lot to do with the sharing of US stealth technology research with the UK, albeit limited, I imagine. The UK would probably not be allowed to make use of the research in a European collaboration because the US would most likely want the research to be kept secret. If the UK went it alone, then this would not be a factor. The downside could perhaps be that this would also implicate the possibility of exports of the new UCAV.
I think, that since UCAVs are in their first generation (It will be the UK's and other European country's first UCAV for that matter), it is important for the UK to go it alone to maintain the ability to great and build innnovative designs.