The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

rsemmes

Active Member
It seems that RUSI is not as optimistic as IISS.

"The Russian economy is a mess – as Bank of Finland Institute for Emerging Economies (BOFIT) assessments show. And BOFIT has been tracking the Russian economy for 30 years.
...
Still, the snag is that this day of reckoning for the Russian economy is still rather a long way off. Of itself, the economy could stagger on like this for 3-5 years. Russia is likely to remain an economy in decline judged by almost any calculus, except in its ability to wage war."

Enough Ukrainians for those 5 years? Do we want to keep paying the bill for those 5 years? Maybe US doesn't.
I am also a bit skeptical about one little detail: Russia has suffered ~1.400.000 losses?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
It seems that RUSI is not as optimistic as IISS.

"The Russian economy is a mess – as Bank of Finland Institute for Emerging Economies (BOFIT) assessments show. And BOFIT has been tracking the Russian economy for 30 years.
...
Still, the snag is that this day of reckoning for the Russian economy is still rather a long way off. Of itself, the economy could stagger on like this for 3-5 years. Russia is likely to remain an economy in decline judged by almost any calculus, except in its ability to wage war."

Enough Ukrainians for those 5 years? Do we want to keep paying the bill for those 5 years? Maybe US doesn't.
I am also a bit skeptical about one little detail: Russia has suffered ~1.400.000 losses?
I'm also suspicious of those casualty figures, and of the part where they say a 8-9% budget deficit would be all that bad. I also have to wonder if their GDP data includes economic activities in annexed areas, many of which are economically productive and areas like Donetsk, Lugansk, and Crimea definitely provide recruits for the war.
 

Hoover

Member
Again, not to that Ukrainian official. He is not complaining about that either.
Oh, you are only referring to THAT Ukrainian official in THIS special case.

I think that doesn´t solve the problem that China is supporting the aggressor Russia and the "western world" (the Ukraine supporters) has to decide how to cope with China in that manner. Snctions, accusing at the UN.... China is way too important and to powerful of being sanctioned, so "the west" will ignore it, like being ignored before.
 

Aleks.ov

New Member
On the question of what systematic strikes against Ukraine's infrastructure look like. Just last night, 14 HPPs, CHPPs, and TPPs were subjected to strikes. The capital is without electricity, emergency shutdowns across the country.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Oh, you are only referring to THAT Ukrainian official in THIS special case.
I think that doesn´t solve the problem that China is supporting the aggressor Russia and the "western world" (the Ukraine supporters) has to decide how to cope with China in that manner. Snctions, accusing at the UN.... China is way too important and to powerful of being sanctioned, so "the west" will ignore it, like being ignored before.
There is no problem to solve.
As you are saying, the only thing that matters is who is doing it, not what is being done. Welcome to History/realpolitik.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Complaining about inconsistency between what China claims & what it does, of course.
Actually, not even "complaining", he just informed Ukrinform about the fact. I guess he is not happy about that fact.

I am not trying to start any discussion about "neutrality", "armed neutrality", "direct participation" or providing the weapons, the targeting but not pushing the button. He kindly informed Ukrinform that China is doing for Russia (less) than what NATO is doing for Ukraine, without moral considerations, because, as @Hoover said, there is no problem; more exactly, the problem will be ignored.
We ignore a few things, don't we?
 

Hoover

Member
There is no problem to solve.
As you are saying, the only thing that matters is who is doing it, not what is being done. Welcome to History/realpolitik.
Y
Of course it is important who is doing it for whom. If a country who claimes being neutral in a war is supporting the side of the illegal aggressor (Russia in the case you missed that, too) it is a problem for the supporter of the defending country.
China is the most important supplier of items for the Russian war industrie. And if the west will end the war, it would be helpful to dussuade China to help Russia. And yes, the West is too weak to going into conflict with China.
Welcome in realpolitik.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russia is hitting Ukraine's energy grid hard, focusing on northern Ukraine. The focus appears to be Kharkov, Chernigov, Kiev, and to some extent Sumy. However previous experience says that this damage is often repairable. Russia will probably have to stay focused on power grid infrastructure if they want it have a lasting effect. What Russia does have going for it in this situation is that they have more Shaheds and probably missiles then they did in past winter strike campaigns and I suspect Ukraine's air defense grid is weaker then is was in years past.

EDIT: The salient north of Mirnograd is finally seeing some movement. Russian forces have taken Vladimirovka and the gullies east of it. If Russian forces take Shakhovo, the salient becomes a bulge, with some Ukrainian inroads. There's also some Russian movement towards Zolotoy Kolodets again, suggesting that Russia has some greater plans for this salient.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Over the past year or two, there were a few reports with similar content:

IMG_2608.jpeg

I did a quick Google search and came up with an article on the subject:


I am just wondering, how does this happen, being lured into the Russian Army to fight in Ukraine under false pretences? The article says that the two men went to Russia to learn Russian in 2024. The visas were about to expire and they were expected to come back home when the families were told by one of the men that they were being deceived to join the Russian army under a pretext of a security job. So the guy clearly has freedom of movement and is being able to call his family to tell about the “deception”, which he clearly understands to be just that, says he doesn’t want to do it, yet recruited anyway and sent to Ukraine. So what’s the trick? Furthermore, what is the point of recruiting two (well, few) foreign nationals with presumably no military experience (or training, as it appears from the article) who will provide zero benefit on the frontline, risking a scandal with one of your major trading partners and so on?

Several possibilities exist here, in my opinion. First is none of it is true, of course. If it is (or some of it is), this is not happening on some grand scale, but some “patriotic” low level recruitment officers somehow scam an individual or two, still not sure how, and they are sent to the meat grinder. Even that does not seem likely to me. Another possibility is these individuals volunteer and sign up, realize what they signed up for and panic. Fourth is an equivalent of sex trafficking and someone is collecting bonuses for these people being recruited (yet they understand this is being done and are able to contact their families). And so on. None of it makes much sense.

Another note, in the article one of the family remembers insists that he received a message on Telegram allegedly from the Russian authorities to come and collect the body of the deceased fella in Moscow because Russia is not paying the expenses of transferring the bodies internationally. Well, this obviously sounds like a scam, especially since we are talking about India (nothing against India, just real talk). The next step is probably transferring money to some bank account. Second, it could be a message from a fried working for the SBU, in order to create a scandal that I had mentioned above. Third, the body would probably be left/buried where it was found on the battlefield simply to avoid dealing with all this stuff I am discussing here. I mean someone goes to Russia and doesn’t come back is not unheard of. So again, none of it makes any sense.

Another note is from the tweet cited above where “Ukraine notes Russia outsources its war”. Beyond the obvious “what about” stuff, this would be the perfect scenario for Russia to outsource the war, let the Russians live and work in Russia, contribute to the GDP, while mostly foreigners fight and die in the grinder. The amount of money Russia pays to its citizens to sign a contract and fight would be more than sufficient to pay to most of anyone else from the countries a good Ukrainian representative listed as cited in the tweet. A couple of obvious issues though. One would be contracting a capable, but more (most) importantly willing force that will keep pushing and won’t turn around and run once pressured for the very first time. Since Afghanistan is on the list, we all know how it worked out in their own homeland, in spite of being trained and armed by NATO and is a perfect example. Money or not, you need the men with ideology or at least understanding the cause as presented in order to succeed (unless fighting on the undeniably stronger side - then money would suffice - but this isn’t the case). Second, if this was actually happening, we would be seeing a whole lot more foreigners taken prisoner, killed and so on. And I would guess that this is not happening for the very reason I mentioned in one of the previous sentences. Ukrainian mercenaries are not there for the money only, but ideological reasons: fighting the “evil”, some very right oriented fellas, etc. Russia has no such ideology that connects far beyond its borders.

Anyway, I think these random stories that appear once in a while are complete rubbish and have no relevance or meaning.


Next subject. Saw this post yesterday:

IMG_2593.jpeg

Imagine the city with a prewar population of nearly 3 million people, bigger than Paris or Toronto even, for example, is reportedly bombarded all night and there are 8 injured people, five of whom had to be hospitalized with undisclosed injuries. This is with parallel reports of indiscriminate killing of and purposefully targeting civilians.


Another example of the same theme:

IMG_2599.jpeg

Yet in the Russian cities close to the border they attach “drone roofs” and “cages” to ambulances, as well as authorities buying armoured ambulances. Numerous reports of “double-tapping” as well. Many mentioned here previously. I wonder if there is a count on the other side and who would “win” the competition prorated relative to the number of strikes.

All this shit is so tiring and old. Any reasonable person understands the horror of daily air sirens, living out of the bathtub due to being afraid of being killed by the next drone or missile that malfunctions, EW-ed, debris from intercepts, etc, daily trips (several times a day/night, perhaps) to bomb shelters, and so on. Living without heat in the cold, light in the evening… Without hope or with very little… The horror of war. This is real stuff that anyone who read a book or saw a movie understands. This propaganda nonsense is only doing a disservice to the cause, in my opinion; it does not amplify the misery and despair, but the opposite.


A good read on the drones and misconceptions (@rsemmes, you would probably be interested):


A good read from Dara Massicot. Basically she does not exactly agree with some of the assessments cited in the posts above:


There is also a podcast with her on the subject:


In the meantime, Ukraine reportedly orders evacuation of at least parts of Kramatorsk city and surrounding areas:


On the subject of air defences mentioned above by Feanor, in addition to likely lower delivery of Patriot and other missiles, there appears to be improvement to the Russian missiles as well, which is not unexpected (no more subscription here from me, so I go as most of everyone else now and cite it as such):


A good thread that is worth a read from the Ukrainian fighter I cited here a few times previously, whose handle is “Salt” on Tweeter:


Feanor mentioned some movement at the “bunny ears” salient. There were also numerous reports of Russians using armour again - AFVs and tanks - along with motorcycles and “light vehicles” there as well. Numerous infantry dismounts, multiple vehicles hit, etc. Saw another video cited by multiple (pro-)Ukrainian sources of a great number of UA vehicles hit as well over the past couple of months in the area - another “death road”, suggesting deadly fighting, significant casualties, lacking logistics, and so on. Like I said in my previous post, there is significant fighting taking place there with a lot of people being killed on both sides. In my opinion, there is no chance that the reports like “the defenders are inflicting favourable losses” in the area are true. Both sides are getting more or less equally slaughtered is a more likely scenario. All these reports of multiple “encirclements” (regardless of the side making the claims) likely carry just as much weight. Saw another report, where Ukrainian forces have withdrawn in boats over a reservoir taking almost no casualties seems illogical too.

IMG_2609.jpeg

Either there were no troops remaining (likely the case) or they took heavy casualties when retreating in this environment. Especially since this was the expected turn of events. But stranger things have happened in this war.
 

Redshift

Active Member
On the question of what systematic strikes against Ukraine's infrastructure look like. Just last night, 14 HPPs, CHPPs, and TPPs were subjected to strikes. The capital is without electricity, emergency shutdowns across the country.
You must be very pleased with that outcome, you would most likely call Ukrainians terrorists if they inflicted the same on Moscow
 

rsemmes

Active Member
@KipPotapych

I found that foreignaffairs article (The Reeducation of Russia’s Military. A Conversation With Dara Massicot) more than a bit oversimplistic. Every army has always been ready to fight the last war and every army adapted to fight its ongoing war; faster or slower.
I am also surprised about how much actual information it seems to have about the Russian army fighting this war. Unless, of course, they are just rushed conclusions from bits and ends.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
The Economist, talking about Ukraine and its economy this time, is not that optimistic either. Unsurprisingly, I already read comments calling it "Russian propagandist" (troll?). What we don't want to hear is always false and propaganda.

If Ukraine could emerge secure, democratic and prosperous even within a shrunken frontier, that would be a form of victory. Today, the country is struggling on all of those three counts. Ukraine is clearly surviving, but it is gradually being hollowed out and losing room for manoeuvre. “We can fight for years, losing positions slowly,” says one senior official. “But the question is why?"
(Subscribe/paywall)

- What happened to mining the Ukrainian ports?
- "Ukraine can maintain this kind of defence for a long time." At the same time "The infantry is critically understaffed."
- "A Trump-imposed compromise may be the best Ukraine can hope for." Another Gaza (ruins)?
- "
If Ukraine is running out of men, it is, secondly, also running short on democratic legitimacy." Are we supporting just another dictatorship?
- "He (Zelenski) began to believe (a worrying degree of hubris) in destiny." I have been calling him delusional, another Hitler?
-
"The country now survives on foreign life-support, with all the distortions that brings."
- "Sustaining the war effort is certainly possible, but it will further hollow out the country."
But Russia will collapse, because if not... What have we been selling?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Russia is hitting Ukraine's energy grid hard, focusing on northern Ukraine. The focus appears to be Kharkov, Chernigov, Kiev, and to some extent Sumy. However previous experience says that this damage is often repairable. Russia will probably have to stay focused on power grid infrastructure if they want it have a lasting effect. What Russia does have going for it in this situation is that they have more Shaheds and probably missiles then they did in past winter strike campaigns and I suspect Ukraine's air defense grid is weaker then is was in years past.

EDIT: The salient north of Mirnograd is finally seeing some movement. Russian forces have taken Vladimirovka and the gullies east of it. If Russian forces take Shakhovo, the salient becomes a bulge, with some Ukrainian inroads. There's also some Russian movement towards Zolotoy Kolodets again, suggesting that Russia has some greater plans for this salient.
It appears Russia has fully defeated Ukraine's attempts to cut the base of the salient. The space between Nikanorovka and Zatyzhok is now in Russian hands. Russian pushes on Shakhovo, Toretskoe, and Sofievka are likely to continue, but they're far less essential now. Russia has also re-entered the town of Rodinskoe. This appears to be the end of the fight for the salient. Ukraine will continue to defend and conduct local counter-attacks, and of course Russia will continue to try and expand the salient in all directions. Northward cuts the road from Kramatorsk to Dobropol'ye, east-ward converts the salient into a bulge and likely allows for UAV teams to deploy further north, and west-ward threatens the towns of Biletskoe and Dobropol'ye, and eventually Belozerskoe. But there's unlikely to be another major play to cut the base of the salient.
 

Aleks.ov

New Member
You must be very pleased with that outcome, you would most likely call Ukrainians terrorists if they inflicted the same on Moscow
I ask you not to resort to labels in relation to a person about whom you know nothing. One could cite Iran, Iraq, and Yugoslavia as examples, but it seems useless.
And so, the intensification of strikes in recent weeks can be viewed as a response to the continuous strikes on Russian oil refineries and border regions. I hope it's no secret to you that channels of communication and unspoken agreements exist between Russia and Ukraine.
 

Redshift

Active Member
I ask you not to resort to labels in relation to a person about whom you know nothing. One could cite Iran, Iraq, and Yugoslavia as examples, but it seems useless.
And so, the intensification of strikes in recent weeks can be viewed as a response to the continuous strikes on Russian oil refineries and border regions. I hope it's no secret to you that channels of communication and unspoken agreements exist between Russia and Ukraine.
I'm sorry to disagree but nothing that Russia does is in response to what Ukraine does in any meaningful way, the entire chain of events is entirely Russia's responsibility.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
I'm sorry to disagree but nothing that Russia does is in response to what Ukraine does in any meaningful way, the entire chain of events is entirely Russia's responsibility.
No.

When you pull the trigger, you decide to pull the trigger, you are responsible.
Following your excuse, not your logic, Ukraine is responsible for the entire chain of events, for whoever wants to say so.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm sorry to disagree but nothing that Russia does is in response to what Ukraine does in any meaningful way, the entire chain of events is entirely Russia's responsibility.
This is obvious nonsense. Russia has installed anti-drone cages and deployed anti-UAS pickets in response to Ukrainian drone strikes on Russian vehicles.
 

Redshift

Active Member
This is obvious nonsense. Russia has installed anti-drone cages and deployed anti-UAS pickets in response to Ukrainian drone strikes on Russian vehicles.
This is obvious nonsense. Ukraine launched drone strikes, as a response, on Russian tanks because they were in Ukraine and invading Ukraine and then Russia installed cages. Those cages are there because Russia invaded Ukraine and not because Ukraine attempted to stop them with drone strikes.

Cause and effect isn't just a pair of events isolated from everything else.
 
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