Middle East Defence & Security

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
An Israeli drone shot down this morning over Iran.
It was revealed by Israel's public broadcaster KAN that 4 Israeli drones have been shot down in Iran so far:
  • 2 by Iranian air defenses.
  • 1 accidentally by the US.
  • 1 by malfunction.
If previous evidence showed 4 drones downed, this indicates now that Iran is still very much struggling to deploy any air defense system in relevant areas.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Increasing actions related to regime change.
Evin prison isn't a regular prison. It's for political rivalry and dissent.


This however does not indicate any specific course of action on Israel's part.
Here are several possibilities I can think of, in order of decreasing likelihood:
  1. Strikes on internal security targets to pressure Iran politically.
  2. Make Iran more conducive for an uprising, should Iranians choose to accept it.
  3. A coordinated regime change effort.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
How much damage:
24 Israelis have died so far. All within the first 48 hours.
According to Janes, Iraq fired ~200 ballistic missiles (roughly equivalent to first 24 hours on Israel) on Iranian cities, causing >2,000 deaths.
This demonstrates how a combination of air defenses, public shelters and mandated bomb proof areas in every building, and culture of adherence to safety instructions, can create an exceptionally resilient home front.
It is thus safe to conclude that most of the damage is behind us.
Everything else like buildings and other stuff is just material, which literally can just be bought.

Iran can probably import missiles that will allow them to trickle fire MRBMs on Israel on the same level as the Houthis, something we'd consider a victory.

Iran hasn't fired its cruise missiles yet. Only MRBMs and drones. I suspect these are reserved for another target.
It's very difficult to saturate Israeli air defenses with something as basic as a cruise missile or a drone.
They launch drones probably because it's cheap enough. But cruise missiles are more expensive, and will be better utilized against something with more limited defenses, like a ship, or a base. Or civilian targets related to local energy trade.
Someone just decided to illustrate my point. It remains to be seen how this plays out in the medium term.

 
Iran telegraphed it's response to Qatar beforehand, just like they telegraphed their response when Soleimani got assassinated.
If like last time, I don't expect the US to respond again. This does show to me that the Iranian's want to de-escalate this situation as much as possible. I don't think they can afford to even try to close the Straits of Hormuz, their economy is very dependent on that shipping lane being open as well.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/iran-missile-strike-qatar-fits-190007029.html
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. We could have pushed through with more progress.

To clarify:
As a general rule, military success should drive political results.
A ceasefire with no terms is a military success leading to political failure, which in turn quickly diminishes the military success.
Israel would ideally reach a Lebanon-like agreement. Quiet for quiet agreements in the middle east have been notoriously un-favorable to Israel. I'm not advocating for a forever war. I'm pretty sure we got most of our targets. But the final stretch seems very much half assed.


EDIT:
Seems my post about strikes on Basij, Evin prison, and other internal security, was right, and that Israel+USA did not push for a regime change and simply sought to pressure Iran.

EDIT 2:
Ceasefire not holding yet. 20 minutes in and Iran is still just now launching missiles.
Israel has 12 hours + however much Iran violates its own, to conduct more strikes in Iran.
It would be wise, IMO, to focus hard on Iran's internal security apparatus to make them as vulnerable as possible to a popular uprising. Even if it does not lead to one, that's what scares them most.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Gotta say I'm a bit disappointed. We could have pushed through with more progress.

To clarify:
As a general rule, military success should drive political results.
A ceasefire with no terms is a military success leading to political failure, which in turn quickly diminishes the military success.
Israel would ideally reach a Lebanon-like agreement. Quiet for quiet agreements in the middle east have been notoriously un-favorable to Israel. I'm not advocating for a forever war. I'm pretty sure we got most of our targets. But the final stretch seems very much half assed.


EDIT:
Seems my post about strikes on Basij, Evin prison, and other internal security, was right, and that Israel+USA did not push for a regime change and simply sought to pressure Iran.

EDIT 2:
Ceasefire not holding yet. 20 minutes in and Iran is still just now launching missiles.
Israel has 12 hours + however much Iran violates its own, to conduct more strikes in Iran.
It would be wise, IMO, to focus hard on Iran's internal security apparatus to make them as vulnerable as possible to a popular uprising. Even if it does not lead to one, that's what scares them most.
It's possible that the interpretation that Trump hit Iran as a way of getting Israel to agree to an end to hostilities may be correct. He might be doing the old carrot and stick, the carrot is the strikes the US did against Iranian nuclear facilities. The stick is that he could threaten to withhold the interceptors Israel needs to keep trading blows with relative impunity.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
It's possible that the interpretation that Trump hit Iran as a way of getting Israel to agree to an end to hostilities may be correct. He might be doing the old carrot and stick, the carrot is the strikes the US did against Iranian nuclear facilities. The stick is that he could threaten to withhold the interceptors Israel needs to keep trading blows with relative impunity.
Witholding munitions was Biden's strategy. Trump works in other, more closed doors ways.
Made sense for Israel to make a deal with the US to strike nuclear targets if the US was unwilling to assist logistically in an Israeli strike. And nuclear targets were the number 1 priority.
But when we're looking at the full picture, it appears to be the same mistake made with the JCPOA.
Iran's economical assets weren't harmed, to improve chances of an uprising.
Iran's internal security assets were kept intact so far, which allows IRGC to prevent such uprising.
So Iran has all the resources (energy trade) to start restoring its losses, and we're likely politically bound from "mowing the lawn".

Israel technically still has <10 hours left. But I'm skeptical.

EDIT:
When war is conducted properly, it prevents a future, deadlier war. Sans last minute changes, we're probably headed toward another confrontation within the next 2-5 years.
 
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Redshift

Active Member
@KipPotapych Sorry but this is a combination of historical revisionism and cliches.
JCPOA was de facto a temporary agreement. It had a deadline. Within 15 years there would be no restrictions, with some being lifted years earlier.
Effectively the intent was to ban Iranian enrichment and some other activities for up to 15 years, but give it sanctions relief through which it would build up an arsenal, a deterrent (Hezbollah was supposed to deter a strike but it made a strategic error), and build significant infrastructure including more UGFs and stockpile components for massively increasing the program.
By 2025 it would not be close to a nuclear weapon, but it would so much more powerful ballistic missile arsenal and much empowered Hezbollah, that if October 7th hadn't driven Israel to retaliate and Hezbollah hadn't mistakenly locked itself in a conflict with Israel, it's very much possible Israel would remain deterred from conducting a strike.

You think from the perspective of someone living in the sheltered Europe or US. But JCPOA was never about the full picture. It ignores, as you ignore, the conventional aspect to which it is tied. Iran's array of proxies and its own arsenal. Easy to ignore in hindsight when it was all dismantled already.

This same decision to ignore Iran's conventional capabilities causes your ignorance to the Iranian threat to Europe.
Iran has been developing Europe and US-range missiles for years. They are of no use against Israel.
Over 10,000 of its drones rained down on Europe already.
And it operates significant networks of operatives across Europe. It's been known for years for example that the UK is the regional hub for Iranian activity.
And guess what? Just yesterday they disabled 2 tanker aircraft in RAF Brize Norton.
Why specifically tanker aircraft, an aircraft type that coincidentally is so relevant to air operations in Iran?
They were then set to be branded as terrorist organizations, but the writing was on the wall, as this is actually not the first time they cause millions in damage to a British military facility.

You also dismissed Merz as a buffoon.
Is he really though? It's no coincidence that Iran's missiles can now reach Germany, but as of 2025 Germany does not posses a BMD system to intercept them.
They will soon, Arrow 3 provided by Israel, same one knocking down MRBMs right now. But there are leaks, and Merz knows there's no such thing as actually defending from a nuke without preventing that nuke's construction.

I do not subscribe to the idea of defeatism. I believe problems have a solution, and solutions work.
After defeating Hamas and Hezbollah, and a week into a war with Iran:
  1. No WW3.
  2. No massive regional war.
  3. Strait of Hormuz is open.
  4. Israel largely unscathed.
  5. No ground invasion into Iran.
Now, I've heard plenty of people doom-mongering on Iran for years. I've always responded with reason. But it never seems to stop. Even in the middle of a war that's the antithesis of that.

Another person apparently made the same case more eloquently and it resonated with more people.

I see absolutely nothing bad with eliminating a nuke program before it produces one. Nor anything bad about eliminating a regime whose motto was "death to America/Israel/Britain".
Does that mean that a strike in Israeli facilities years ago before they got nukes would have also been "nothing bad"?
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Bit of a reach but perhaps Trumpy shows that he's pressuring Israel out of the 12 hours he promised, to once again create a show of "good will" and restart some operations soon. Perhaps in a takeover from Israel, where it becomes a pure US-Iran confrontation. But we'll see.
If fighting were to resume though, the some stars would have to align to make it quick and painless.
 
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