Sure I read somewhere the added tanks give a J another 4 hours worth of flight time and that the flight to the big A takes 7 hours (in a H with tanks). Being faster I guess the flight PNR will now move further south but still not sure if it can do a full trip down and back in one go? Maybe just more decision making time if anything.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but the tanks are external tanks, not drop tanks, they are bolted to the wing. If they are the same tanks as fitted to the H, which they look like. they will provide an additional amount of fuel in excess of 3200 US gallons between them.
Ladies, with my apologies for some repetition please find a good news article from Defence News about the first of 5 No. 40 Sqn C-130J-30s arriving at RNZAF Base Whenuapai on 4 Sep.
www.defensenews.com
"Wing Commander Bradley Scott, who spearheads the air service’s No. 40 Squadron that will operate the new fleet, told Defense News that all five C-130Js would arrive by the end of October. "
Meanwhile, on the other side of my glass is half full, is this Janes news that Romania has been approved by US for 32 F-35A.
www.janes.com
That means this computer search will need updating for nations who operate this aircraft.
Collectively, as a Five Eyes partner 'doing' national security, we really are a clown show.
New Zealand Air Force receives first Super Hercules cargo plane
The fleet will eventually comprise five aircraft, decided in a $1 billion deal that goes back to 2020.
www.defensenews.com
"Wing Commander Bradley Scott, who spearheads the air service’s No. 40 Squadron that will operate the new fleet, told Defense News that all five C-130Js would arrive by the end of October. "
Meanwhile, on the other side of my glass is half full, is this Janes news that Romania has been approved by US for 32 F-35A.
US approves Romania for F-35
The US government has approved the sale to Romania of 32 Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft.
www.janes.com
That means this computer search will need updating for nations who operate this aircraft.
Collectively, as a Five Eyes partner 'doing' national security, we really are a clown show.
https://www.boeing.com/content/dam/boeing/boeingdotcom/defense/c-40_series/pdf/c40a_product_card.pdf
There has been a bit of chatter about the RFI for a replacement of the 757 on the NZDF thread. The A321 or the B737. Whilst I have a preference for the A321 logic demands that the favorite in my view will be the B737 or the C40Ai as Boeing have labled it. The airframe is already in service with the P8 and I suspect training and introduction of the type would not be to costly. The aircraft is a combi with VIP with a wide side loading freight door and full pax being around 121.
I am not sure about distances to McMurdo but I am sure someone will come up with some figures.
I know there are a few that recommend the A330 MRTT but the loopy left would arch up with that and I am sure you could sell the idea of the C40 a lot easier.
and i want to apologize for using the word logic and NZDF procurement policy is the same sentence and now where is my bottle of Cab Merlot
There has been a bit of chatter about the RFI for a replacement of the 757 on the NZDF thread. The A321 or the B737. Whilst I have a preference for the A321 logic demands that the favorite in my view will be the B737 or the C40Ai as Boeing have labled it. The airframe is already in service with the P8 and I suspect training and introduction of the type would not be to costly. The aircraft is a combi with VIP with a wide side loading freight door and full pax being around 121.
I am not sure about distances to McMurdo but I am sure someone will come up with some figures.
I know there are a few that recommend the A330 MRTT but the loopy left would arch up with that and I am sure you could sell the idea of the C40 a lot easier.
and i want to apologize for using the word logic and NZDF procurement policy is the same sentence and now where is my bottle of Cab Merlot
Whilst that is a nice idea At Lakes, the RFT limits the options to the Boeing 737 Max 8 and the Airbus 321 LR/XLR (neither of which operate as a combi or a freighter as yet I believe). The C40 is not built from a 737 Max airframe, instead it used bits of the older generation -700 & -800 737 NG airframes. So I don't think it can be considered as a viable contender, and neither can the A330 or even the C-2. The brochure you linked is from 2016, so likely no longer current.
The first Airbus 321XLR has just entered service with Irish airline Aer Lingus literally a few days ago. Probably a bit early to say how good it is (and whether Airbus' range claim actually stacks up). To get FAA certification, I read they had to make some changes.
The 737 Max series has had it's fair share of problems (grounded worldwide for nearly 2 years after two accidents in 2018-19, followed by a large number of cancelled orders, claims of poor quality workmanship &, recently, industrial action). I wonder exactly what the tender refers to when it mentions "the competitiveness of the market for aircraft of this type".
Then there is the issue of the current backlog of orders that Boeing (4000+) and Airbus (7000+) apparently have for the 737 Max & A320 series, just for commercial operators. Hence I am sceptical of the tender actually being able to be filled even by late 2027. That's why I consider this whole process a waste of time. And that's on top of a passenger airliner simply being the wrong type of aircraft for the job in the first place.
The first Airbus 321XLR has just entered service with Irish airline Aer Lingus literally a few days ago. Probably a bit early to say how good it is (and whether Airbus' range claim actually stacks up). To get FAA certification, I read they had to make some changes.
The 737 Max series has had it's fair share of problems (grounded worldwide for nearly 2 years after two accidents in 2018-19, followed by a large number of cancelled orders, claims of poor quality workmanship &, recently, industrial action). I wonder exactly what the tender refers to when it mentions "the competitiveness of the market for aircraft of this type".
Then there is the issue of the current backlog of orders that Boeing (4000+) and Airbus (7000+) apparently have for the 737 Max & A320 series, just for commercial operators. Hence I am sceptical of the tender actually being able to be filled even by late 2027. That's why I consider this whole process a waste of time. And that's on top of a passenger airliner simply being the wrong type of aircraft for the job in the first place.
I think this is just an ego thing so that the PM is not embaished (after he had said prior to the election that he would travel commercial).I don't understand why they are causing problems and need to be replaced, as there are still over 500 in airline service, still operating successfully and they are used as the official transport for the USVP. I think there are far more important acquisitions that need to be funded before the purchase of passenger airliners that can contribute little in the event of us being involved in a conflict. If they want to move people from A to B Charter an aircraft to do the job as a single charter when required.
Yep it's nothing more than just another example that our defence spending priorities are all wrong and politically driven rather than operationally driven. The B757 are damn fine aircraft and if they'd bought a 3rd at the time they'd have found a spare would more often than not be available at short-notice.
Four RNZAF C-130H Hercules aircraft sold to US aerial firefighting company
The Royal New Zealand Air Force’s (RNZAF) retired fleet of C-130H Hercules aircraft has been sold to an American aerial firefighting company for $9 million.
www.nzdf.mil.nz
whilst they are no longer in RNZAF service seems fitting that this should be placed here considering that for 60 years they were in the RNZAF.
Coulson now have them for 9million dollars for four. After a major upgrade they will join the Coulson fleet fighting fires all over the world
RetirementIsGood
Member
Defence Force maritime helicopters to be replaced at cost of over $2 billion
Not much substance here IMO. It's more an announcement about an announcement.
"We're going to plan to spend the money we previously said we were going to spend ... subject to minor unimportant details like selection of an actual product, a business case & Cabinet approval"
benignstrategicenvironment
New Member
Judith was asked how many new helicopters would be procured and she answered five.
(at 10:50).
She justified this by saying that we currently have five operational seasprites. When the replacement helicopters are new this will be less of an issue as the new airframes will have high availability rates. However, over the medium to long term the new airframes will need more maintenance. This could result in fewer than five airframes being available. Furthermore, this doesn't give us much leeway if an airframe is lost.
I think this bodes poorly for the rest of the DCP. A smaller fleet of maritime helicopters is inconsistent with the desire for a larger navy or more frigates. Like with the p8s this is a government investing the minimum amount to match its rhetoric.
She justified this by saying that we currently have five operational seasprites. When the replacement helicopters are new this will be less of an issue as the new airframes will have high availability rates. However, over the medium to long term the new airframes will need more maintenance. This could result in fewer than five airframes being available. Furthermore, this doesn't give us much leeway if an airframe is lost.
I think this bodes poorly for the rest of the DCP. A smaller fleet of maritime helicopters is inconsistent with the desire for a larger navy or more frigates. Like with the p8s this is a government investing the minimum amount to match its rhetoric.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Not sure this is true, unless the minimum requirement is for only one serviceable naval helicopter at any given point in time. When the RAN made the initial selection of the MH-60R 'Romeo' Seahawk to replace the cancelled SH-2G(A) Super Seasprites and the in-service but aged S-70B-2 Seahawks, it was determined that the service requirement was eight helicopters available. To reliably ensure that eight new Seahawks were available or on ops, 24 were ordered, which did follow the Rule of Threes.
StevoJH
The Bunker Group
And then another 12 (13) were ordered to take the fleet size up to 36, which would suggest that either the 6 MRH-90's operated by the navy were insufficient, or that 24 MH-60R's was insufficient for the RAN's existing requirements.
Hawkeye69
Member
Whatever helicopter platform is chosen 5 is simply not enough. The future navy fleet will have 2x multi role ships, you still have Aotearo, 2x frigates, forget OPV’s I don’t see a future for them and if they are replace a UAV is all they would need same for them and if SOPV.
you need to allow maintenance, training and any unforeseen circumstances.
you need to allow maintenance, training and any unforeseen circumstances.
kiwi in exile
Well-Known Member
I know spares, training, a simulator, armaments etc but $2bil for 5 x airframes seems wrong. It was 1.5 for 5×c130-30js and 2.4 for 4x p8a's. Spain is getting 8 Romeo's for <$1 billion USD.
Counting the he number of airframes based on the predicted future fleet based on the prev govts DCP is a mistake. 5 helos for our 2 current frigates, 1 for the Canterbury and 1 for Aotearoa leaves 1 spare. The Canterbury and Aotearoa probably won't need theirs most of the time. We could aquire additional airframes if or when we go to 3-4 frigates. But I agree, >5 would be better. Availability of crews may also be a factor at present. Another thing, aside from domestic contingencies, airframes will only need to be available when their parent ship is available. So if a frigate is tied at Davenport, itx hello can be in maintenance.
Weapons wise the Romeo will hopefully be fitted at some stage with the NSM. The USN and RAN will use these. Already has hellfires and torpedos. NFH 90 has torpedos, mbdas Marte and sea venom missiles. No plans for NSM yet. The wildcat has martlett and seavenom. Anything would be better than old short legs penguins but would make sense to have a anti ship missile common across our ships, p8 and helps, and our allies. Ie nsm. Not a fan of the aforementioned MDDA systems, but like the Brimstone, and would love to see it on our helos for CAS and sea guardians (that's my Xmas wishlist).
Counting the he number of airframes based on the predicted future fleet based on the prev govts DCP is a mistake. 5 helos for our 2 current frigates, 1 for the Canterbury and 1 for Aotearoa leaves 1 spare. The Canterbury and Aotearoa probably won't need theirs most of the time. We could aquire additional airframes if or when we go to 3-4 frigates. But I agree, >5 would be better. Availability of crews may also be a factor at present. Another thing, aside from domestic contingencies, airframes will only need to be available when their parent ship is available. So if a frigate is tied at Davenport, itx hello can be in maintenance.
Weapons wise the Romeo will hopefully be fitted at some stage with the NSM. The USN and RAN will use these. Already has hellfires and torpedos. NFH 90 has torpedos, mbdas Marte and sea venom missiles. No plans for NSM yet. The wildcat has martlett and seavenom. Anything would be better than old short legs penguins but would make sense to have a anti ship missile common across our ships, p8 and helps, and our allies. Ie nsm. Not a fan of the aforementioned MDDA systems, but like the Brimstone, and would love to see it on our helos for CAS and sea guardians (that's my Xmas wishlist).
Hawkeye69
Member
The frigates will likely only be replaced in the mid 2030’s with only 2x replacements, I would not rule out something along the lines of a light frigate. Don’t count on the OPV’s getting replaced I think the inshores will remain but the major focus will be on an SOPV and 2x multi role vessels to replace Canterbury, we will likely have more unmanned platforms and more and more are coming to reality, the Ghost shark looks ideal and can be fitted out for what each operators needs require.
I personally think with what ever naval helicopter platform we go with we are short changing ourselves, if it’s 5 forget a frigate fleet of anymore than 2.
I personally think with what ever naval helicopter platform we go with we are short changing ourselves, if it’s 5 forget a frigate fleet of anymore than 2.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Currently $2b NZD is about $1.2b USD, so with lifetime cost, spare parts simulator, training, infrastructure ... surely that it is 5 with the option for more later..
However like every one here it should be at least 8... While I believe they are being frugal as always it is a sign (in my eyes that they have already chosen and most likely the Romeo) as 5 is not really enough to cover all including the OPV's and the Romeo is to big for the OPV and they are due to be replaced in (20-mumble mumble yeh sorry not remember thtimeline on them :-/) so they can maybe temporarily use the A109 in the interim...
With the prospects of replacing HMNZS Canterbury in the next few years with more capability and probably can use multiple helo's and the prospect of 2 LPD's this is where the option for more at a future date may come in to play .
However like every one here it should be at least 8... While I believe they are being frugal as always it is a sign (in my eyes that they have already chosen and most likely the Romeo) as 5 is not really enough to cover all including the OPV's and the Romeo is to big for the OPV and they are due to be replaced in (20-mumble mumble yeh sorry not remember thtimeline on them :-/) so they can maybe temporarily use the A109 in the interim...
With the prospects of replacing HMNZS Canterbury in the next few years with more capability and probably can use multiple helo's and the prospect of 2 LPD's this is where the option for more at a future date may come in to play .
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
Me being me, I do think that the NZDF needs to work out just how many naval helicopters they want to have available in a decade, and then work from there to determine how many are realistically required to achieve that number, whilst also keeping in mind what the naval component of the NZDF is likely to look like towards the end of the 2030's and into the 2040's.
As has been mentioned, the NZDF currently has five naval helicopters, but what gets left out is that a further three were also purchased and have been getting used as a source for spares. Should NZG be cheap again, (yes I mean cheap, not frugal) five platforms might be adequate initially, but as they clock flight hours and/or parts start getting harder to obtain that five might easily dwindle first down to four, then three, and perhaps even only one or two actually in service. Anyone care to see a repeat of the C-130H issues where NZG called upon the NZDF and RNZAF to carry out an op, only for it to be forced to be scrubbed because the only platform available had an error/failure and had to abort?
Or heck, just look at NZ's initial SH-2G(NZ) acquisition which was also for five platforms, and then the problems which NZ encountered with keeping them available and in service due to the small number of platforms. Such issues were also why when NZ retired the SH-2G(NZ) and replaced them with ex-RAN SH-2G(A) modified to the SH-2G(I) standard, ten platforms were purchased with eight to be available for service whilst two were to serve as a source of spares.
Now there is also the larger question of what the size and composition of the RNZN fleet will be going into the future, as well as what type vessels should either have an embarked naval helicopter, or be kitted out so that one could be useful at least part of the time. IMO having a naval helicopter embarked aboard an OPV or other vessel with a comparable sensor, comms and electronics fitout would be a waste because they would have neither the electronics to benefit from any increased situational awareness from a naval helicopter aloft, or have armament to contribute to any fight an embarked helicopter might engage in.
Starting point is really what does the fleet look like.
Composition and numbers.
How many are aviation capable vessels ?
Going forward it’s basically a clean slate to build a fleet but for the refuelling ship Aotearoa.
So how many helicopters?
Answer. How many ships
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
Exactly both, this project appears to be addressing the current needs i.e. primarily for the two current Frigates (hence 5 helos ... although ideally should be at least 6). The fact they could also operate from the AOR/Sealift vessels (and potentially the OPV's? The OPV's were designed with the same size hanger as the ANZAC's ... unsure about the size of the flight deck/operating safety margins though) is a bonus, and if anything they don't need MH-60R/NFH-90/AW159) capability. But they will embark them for the time-being, because as a small navy and rotary force that's all we have.
As Stampede says once the future maritime fleet composition is determined then further future acquisitions can be addressed (well, hopefully) as part of the Future Indicative Investments, and potentially there is another route via the Future Indicative Investments/Utility Helicopter Fleet pathway (could this be the pathway to acquire a "utility" variant for the AOR/Sealift vessels? Would the MH-60S (or refurbished S-60/70's) be pushing the boundaries a bit too much (or would something simpler be required)?
Agree with Nighthawk that the current budget appears sufficient for a significant helo type buy (and fit out) and although any of the 3 likely types would be an advancement, in terms of interoperability with NZ's closest allies and serviceability into the future ("an active roadmap to continue modernising aircraft and mission systems capabilities to ensure anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare superiority into the 2050s") one of them certainly stands out.
Hopefully the naval review will be available by the end of this year so that the full picture on its restructure can be seen. I concur with Todjaeger that the OPV's are not the ideal platform for a high end capability as he has stated above. I would like to see the OPV.s disposed of and funding put into a light frigate with further to follow over time as already proposed in the latest DCP. We need three frigates including our ANZAC.s - ASAP