Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
JS Noshiro(FFM3-Mogami) now at Stirling.



Arafura apparently also on its way to Stirling.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Earlier in this thread, the height difference of the bridge between the Mogami and the Improved Mogami was discussed with the height on the original design being considered too low with forward vision being inadequate & being partially obscured by the gun.

The pic shown in the article link provided by Reptilia is taken from an angle which highlights how low the bridge is. The Improved Mogami design appears to have corrected that.

IMG_7339.jpeg
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Simulation of an ANZAC frigate vs a Chinese Type 054A. Won't spoil it.
Entertaining, and nice to see an ANZAC modelled with NSM. I've watched several of the grim reapers videos.

I did enjoy the 1 mile engagement, a bit unfair to ANZAC I think.

It modelled some EW capability in the later fight, however the ANZACs have a lot more than was shown. It provides an inkling of the effectiveness of EW in defence. It's just as important as the ESSM and other anti missile systems.

Not all the NSM features were on full display either, such as terminal stage maneuvering.

It does however demonstrate the difficulty of even the most modern missiles have to penetrate defences. Both ships fired off their full anti ship missile magazine (8 missiles each), with most being defeated before reaching their target.

I like to think that old ANZAC, with an 8 cell VLS still remains very competitive with modern larger frigates. I have always held the view they remain very capable combat ships that punch well above their weight grade. Might have limited strike options, but they are nasty porcupines.

To use a cliche, it's the size of the fight in the dog that counts.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
Entertaining, and nice to see an ANZAC modelled with NSM. I've watched several of the grim reapers videos.

I did enjoy the 1 mile engagement, a bit unfair to ANZAC I think.

It modelled some EW capability in the later fight, however the ANZACs have a lot more than was shown. It provides an inkling of the effectiveness of EW in defence. It's just as important as the ESSM and other anti missile systems.

Not all the NSM features were on full display either, such as terminal stage maneuvering.

It does however demonstrate the difficulty of even the most modern missiles have to penetrate defences. Both ships fired off their full anti ship missile magazine (8 missiles each), with most being defeated before reaching their target.

I like to think that old ANZAC, with an 8 cell VLS still remains very competitive with modern larger frigates. I have always held the view they remain very capable combat ships that punch well above their weight grade. Might have limited strike options, but they are nasty porcupines.

To use a cliche, it's the size of the fight in the dog that counts.
Poor old Hobart
 

Sender

Active Member
He's talking about cutting the budget in half. I don't see how AUKUS funding would not be affected if that comes to pass. It's not necessarily the end of the world for this program, but it will add to the challenges for certain.

More cracks are appearing in the US portion of AUKUS:


Especially concerning are the comments form the Under Secretary of Defense questioning this importance of this program to the US.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
More cracks are appearing in the US portion of AUKUS:


Especially concerning are the comments form the Under Secretary of Defense questioning this importance of this program to the US.
What this demonstrates (besides the POTUS issues) is the US inability to increase naval ship production, especially SSNs. It is understandable that because of this the US wants all SSNs for the USN. The only likely solution for AUKUS designed submarines is construction by Australia and the UK but better delivery will require additional partners and maybe eventually other customers. Not sure how the US would feel about PR3 reactors being made available outside of AUKUS or even having parts of a SSN being produced outside.
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Especially concerning are the comments form the Under Secretary of Defense questioning this importance of this program to the US.
Not that I want to question the integrity of the Turkish media, but do they have any new hard information, or do they just regurgitate the usual talking points with already known information regarding the US' shipbuilding capacity? Because the money Australia has given to invest in shipbuilding has not had any chance to kick in yet.

Note that the US under secretary is subordinate to the Secretary of Defense, who previously has said that the US administration supports AUKUS.

Personally, I think it would be very healthy for the forum to stop with the constant AUKUS dooming. It's based on speculation. Official announcements are fine, but at this stage the global media are just feeding off each other's negativity for clicks and not actually saying anything new.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not that I want to question the integrity of the Turkish media, but do they have any new hard information, or do they just regurgitate the usual talking points with already known information regarding the US' shipbuilding capacity? Because the money Australia has given to invest in shipbuilding has not had any chance to kick in yet.

Note that the US under secretary is subordinate to the Secretary of Defense, who previously has said that the US administration supports AUKUS.

Personally, I think it would be very healthy for the forum to stop with the constant AUKUS dooming. It's based on speculation. Official announcements are fine, but at this stage the global media are just feeding off each other's negativity for clicks and not actually saying anything new.
You can't deny US SSN production barely, if at all, meets USN needs and as the situation with China gets worse, the need will increase. For sure Australian investments will help but skilled tradespeople don't just happen with a pile of cash. Training takes time. Skilled labour in Japan and SKorea could speed things up....if allowed.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Are the U.S planning to build another submarine yard at Austal USA-Mobile, Alabama?

They are building a new submarine module manufacture shed and a multi ship assembly hall + shiplift.
Looks like they have plenty of space to expand, (FA2) in the pic below is going to be partly funded by the Aus government.

Austal Investor Report 2025
 

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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There was a study about three years ago by the CBO and USN which estimated that setting up another SSN line would cost about $3 billion USD. How much is Australia providing - oh, 3 billion USD. The study also suggested it would take 5-7 years to become fully operational and much of that would be in the time it took to recruit and develop a skilled workforce.

An extract was published by O’Rourke in one of his CRS papers.From memory it posited expansion of the EB/Norfolk capabilities and add in of additional suppliers to the supply chain,including for partial fabrication of cans.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are the U.S planning to build another submarine yard at Austal USA-Mobile, Alabama?
I don't think so. There are multiple bottlenecks in the current setup, I am not sure a full new nuclear submarine yard would be effective. But why they are trying to do is shift work that doesn't need to happen in one of the full production yards, out. Which they have done.

Austal is building the internal aluminium structures for submarines. This makes sense, as much of it is aluminium, and normal steel yards don't have as much capacity to do aluminium work. But they still need a sizable shipyard and expert welders with security etc to do the work.


Austal isn't building whole submarines. Just vital parts. In a unique and specialised facility, to significantly improve the build production rate of submarines in other yards.

AUKUS had Australia spending a lot of money improving infrastructure in the US to build submarines, to address those bottlenecks. With a new yard in Australia to build submarines. But Australia and the US have considerable stake in each others programs. They aren't going to mess with each other. There has been significant effort put into that. I would tend to ignore casual observers saying AUKUS not delivering on submarines, there may and will be issues, but there is too much in play on both sides now. Cutting it would mean chaos for the US as well as Australia.

I believe there was some study done to see if it was better to build a new yard or fix the current bottlenecks and improve what is already in place. I presume we are doing the latter. Although they aren't mutually exclusive and this is exactly the sort of stuff you may not want to announce many years ahead of implementation.

You can't deny US SSN production barely, if at all, meets USN needs and as the situation with China gets worse, the need will increase. For sure Australian investments will help but skilled tradespeople don't just happen with a pile of cash. Training takes time. Skilled labour in Japan and SKorea could speed things up....if allowed.
Unlikely to happen a direct collab SK/JP with the US on subs. However, Australia could be an intermediary or pilot program. Australia is less complicated to work with and less conservative and more motivated about collaborations. If Japan is selected for sea3000, that would be a huge collaboration project would already be in place. Australia is also setting up a new submarine line, to the obvious place to implement/pilot those improvements, is there.

The US has benchmarked and studied Japanese submarine/shipbuilding building before, particularly around the virginia class.

But that is why these types of programs are so important. It's more than just ships and boats. It's about having functional, useful tangible relationships that work and deliver for the collective good. It's not just about the weapons, but the friends we make along the way.

Especially concerning are the comments form the Under Secretary of Defense questioning this importance of this program to the US.
It's a concern. Sometimes people (including those in power) don't understand, and sometimes new understandings need to be made given new context. Elbridge Colby is concerned with China. It hard to say exactly what his aims and intentions were in saying the things that were said in the way they were said. But in saying those he didn't say that Australia isn't getting any submarines and the program is cancelled.

It maybe that the program needs to be clearer on how it is doing both, meeting the US's needs and that of its Partner Australia. And that Australia isn't taking advantage of the US. Which is fair enough given the current environment. There have been multiple leadership changes since the deal was signed, so what does it mean to each party, today. Is it some whimsical, aimless program without tangible outcomes, or a hard headed real capability program that is going to succeed for both involved? That has, needs a narrative that resonates with the current administration.

Is it a constellation class program, or a Flight III burke program? If its a constellation program, it would be better for both parties if we part ways immediately. If its a flight III program, we should double down and make blood oaths to each other. Australia has had submarine acquisition programs have issue before, if this is going to happen it needs to work.

Australia is very good at communicating its value. Australia has huge credibility and outsized gravitas and influence with the US. I think the fundamental concept of AUKUS and Australia getting submarines is very sound and stands on its own merits, for both sides.

China absolutely hates the idea.

Everyone else loves the idea. Particularly given the current environment. But doesn't mean it won't be questioned, and that there won't be pressure on the program. There are critics out there, and they have some possibly realistic and legitimate fears. They should be addressed.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
More cracks are appearing in the US portion of AUKUS:


Especially concerning are the comments form the Under Secretary of Defense questioning this importance of this program to the US.
The Under Secretary of Defense should not underestimate the importance of this program to the US. To start with AUKUS will provide the US with up to 8 extra allied SSNs that the US does not have to pay for. Not just the SSNs, but also all the facilities required to maintain and repair, not just Australia's SSNs, but also those of their allies.

These submarines won't just be sailing laps of Australia's Southern Ocean either. They will be deployed into pretty much the same regions as US boats. That Australia would not be willing to become involved in any war with China on the side of the US is also nonsense. US military personel, facilities and equipment are already based in Australia and in the event of a war they would continue to operate from Australian territory. Like it or not Australia would be heavily involved in any war between the US and China.
 

Sandson41

Member
The Under Secretary of Defense should not underestimate the importance of this program to the US. To start with AUKUS will provide the US with up to 8 extra allied SSNs that the US does not have to pay for. Not just the SSNs, but also all the facilities required to maintain and repair, not just Australia's SSNs, but also those of their allies.

These submarines won't just be sailing laps of Australia's Southern Ocean either. They will be deployed into pretty much the same regions as US boats. That Australia would not be willing to become involved in any war with China on the side of the US is also nonsense. US military personel, facilities and equipment are already based in Australia and in the event of a war they would continue to operate from Australian territory. Like it or not Australia would be heavily involved in any war between the US and China.
It's also not just subs in the long term, it's personnel right through the foreseeable future. There's a hundred in their pipeline now, and at least some will be serving on US subs. I recall reading somewhere there will eventually be several hundred Aussie personnel serving on their subs. Call it the equivalent of two crews. More?
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
It's also not just subs in the long term, it's personnel right through the foreseeable future. There's a hundred in their pipeline now, and at least some will be serving on US subs. I recall reading somewhere there will eventually be several hundred Aussie personnel serving on their subs. Call it the equivalent of two crews. More?
Yep. Within about a year to 18 months it will likely be around 300, with an increasing proportion of those now with at least base qualifications (can perform a billet independently). The targeted level was around the 400-450 in the USN system, I would have thought we will see those levels well before the end of the Tump term in office.

Very soon, Australian submariners will represent a not insignificant proportion of American submarine force. I should note the USN has the same, if not more, difficulty recruiting, so the provision of people is of high value. Especialy when another nation offers their best and brightest for free (we pay the full salaries and living away from home expenses for all our people). That's several hundred million in payroll in addition to the money put up for submarine construction that we pay the US government.

That number of people keeps a lot of boats at sea, and remember our people are training for the high skill roles, engineering, combat system management, command, where a single shortage could prevent a boat from deploying. We are not training cooks and stewards. So that number will have a disproportionate impact on USN crew and therefore submarine availability.

I think the problem is, is that it this is not properly understood by the US government at this point in time.
 
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