ADF General discussion thread

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I don’t disagree that it provides benefits to the ADF, I’m just not sure if the benefits to the partner nations outweigh the risks from their perspective.

Is there anything China needs from those countries (other than possibly basing rights) that they cannot buy? What interest would they have in boots on the ground unless we give them one?

On the other hand, is that a risk PNG, Fiji etc want to take? Maybe they do agree to Australia investing in bare bases without permanently assigned assets.
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
Cut our loses with Supply and Stalwart before it gets worse and buy two, preferably three, John Lewis Class.... Would also help with retention of Auxiliary sailors (it's demoralising working on a materiel issues and ILS deficiencies Lernaean Hydra)
What's wrong with them? Is it really bad enough to justify disposal rather than rectification?
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
What's wrong with them? Is it really bad enough to justify disposal rather than rectification?
Not that has been publicly released anyway. Shaft alignment issues on both ships I believe.

The conversation that needs to be had isn’t replacing them, but supplementing them with additional ships of either the same or a different class.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Having worked on FFG's and Anzac's, served on Both LHD's, Both AOR's, Success and Tobruk and worked at the training centre for OPV's my opinion is buy american designs or nothing else.
Not critical just curious.

What do you perceive as the advantages going with US designs

Cheers S
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Former Defence Joel Fitzgibbon was on 3AW this morning. No link available as yet but putting forward a model that in the event of a hung parliament the 2 major parties form a coalition government to keep the independents and greens out of influence. Stated that in a broad sense the 2 parties do work together on Defence and crisis matter and are more closely aligned in many ways than the legalise cannabis, Greens taels or Four wheel drive parties…
 
Last edited:

swerve

Super Moderator
Not that has been publicly released anyway. Shaft alignment issues on both ships I believe.

The conversation that needs to be had isn’t replacing them, but supplementing them with additional ships of either the same or a different class.
Thanks.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
I don’t disagree that it provides benefits to the ADF, I’m just not sure if the benefits to the partner nations outweigh the risks from their perspective.

Is there anything China needs from those countries (other than possibly basing rights) that they cannot buy? What interest would they have in boots on the ground unless we give them one?

On the other hand, is that a risk PNG, Fiji etc want to take? Maybe they do agree to Australia investing in bare bases without permanently assigned assets.
Agree they are excellent questions but “Basing rights” is a pretty big issue to put in parentheses for a nation that is being strategically restricted within an island chain (some of which it regards as territory to be regained). If China becomes the security partner for a regional nation and then sends peacekeepers during a crisis it will also send force protection assets (missiles in range of the threatening ADF assets) for those peacekeepers just as Australia and New Zealand sent (or borrowed) force protection assets for INTERFET.

Actually the one thing that had been going pretty well in Australian defence and security terms is engagement and cooperation with regional partners. There are good ties with PNG and Fiji, and improved ties with Solomon Islands. It is not trivial to point to the role of the rugby codes in helping re PNG and Fiji (as noted in the NZ threads from time to time). How the US aid vacuum plays out in the South Pacific is one of several headaches though.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
As a conversation starter, the rumours are building that the government will publicly commit to a 3% GDP defence spending by 2034 (vis a vis the current 2.4% trajectory), with a 2.4% level occuring before 2030. From what I'm seeing, it doesn't matter if it is a Labor or Coalition government, this will be the outcome.

While Trump is perhaps the catalyst for this, the geopolicial situation has moved, even since the most recent national defence strategy update last year. The recent China naval circumnavigation seems to have shaken the community more than expected, with fear rather than complacency and indifference becoming a more dominant emotion.

So, that's about an extra $10-15B in today's dollars to come into the investment picture within a few years.

If that is the case (yes my crystal ball is a long way from perfect), what do people see as the highest priority items to come back into the plan? I'm thinking commitment to medium and long range missile defence as number 1, followed by accelerated munitions procurement and production.
 

InterestedParty

Active Member
How the US aid vacuum plays out in the South Pacific is one of several headaches though.
Surely it falls on us to fill whatever vacuum is left. Any disease or communicable illness, is a threat to Australia as so many of us go back and forth around the Pacific.
Whatever soft power that we can use, the better it is, whether that is having more Pacifika players whoop our butts in Rugby or public health assistance
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As a conversation starter, the rumours are building that the government will publicly commit to a 3% GDP defence spending by 2034 (vis a vis the current 2.4% trajectory), with a 2.4% level occuring before 2030. From what I'm seeing, it doesn't matter if it is a Labor or Coalition government, this will be the outcome.

While Trump is perhaps the catalyst for this, the geopolicial situation has moved, even since the most recent national defence strategy update last year. The recent China naval circumnavigation seems to have shaken the community more than expected, with fear rather than complacency and indifference becoming a more dominant emotion.

So, that's about an extra $10-15B in today's dollars to come into the investment picture within a few years.

If that is the case (yes my crystal ball is a long way from perfect), what do people see as the highest priority items to come back into the plan? I'm thinking commitment to medium and long range missile defence as number 1, followed by accelerated munitions procurement and production.
A very big IF - but if it does happen, people & recruitment need to be priority number one. Because it's failing at the moment. Badly. And building up munition stockpiles is pointless if noone is there trained on how to use them.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
As a conversation starter, the rumours are building that the government will publicly commit to a 3% GDP defence spending by 2034 (vis a vis the current 2.4% trajectory), with a 2.4% level occuring before 2030. From what I'm seeing, it doesn't matter if it is a Labor or Coalition government, this will be the outcome.

While Trump is perhaps the catalyst for this, the geopolicial situation has moved, even since the most recent national defence strategy update last year. The recent China naval circumnavigation seems to have shaken the community more than expected, with fear rather than complacency and indifference becoming a more dominant emotion.

So, that's about an extra $10-15B in today's dollars to come into the investment picture within a few years.

If that is the case (yes my crystal ball is a long way from perfect), what do people see as the highest priority items to come back into the plan? I'm thinking commitment to medium and long range missile defence as number 1, followed by accelerated munitions procurement and production.
-People and Recruitment
-Missiles and production
-HIMARS + Strikemasters(both)
-additional NASAMS batteries
-long range defence
-additional MMPARS
-additional GPF built in overseas country
-2 or 4 replenishment ships
 

downunderblue

Active Member
As a conversation starter, the rumours are building that the government will publicly commit to a 3% GDP defence spending by 2034 (vis a vis the current 2.4% trajectory), with a 2.4% level occuring before 2030. From what I'm seeing, it doesn't matter if it is a Labor or Coalition government, this will be the outcome.
Not quick enough. We have a budget due now before the May election and the Govt needs to show a commitment now, not in the never never. There is too much to do that we are putting off. The dPM needs to make a statement in the ERC as 'steady as she goes' is weak and passing the batton to someone else. The catch phrase is the first business of government is protecting it's people, well the Govt needs to get back to first principles and act, not just promise for later.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
That's just the tip of the Iceberg....
Yep, just another one of the many terrible purchases made.
Should have gone with the 3 x Aegir 18A which would have all been in service 4 years ago.

Australian Aegir 18A Info

 
Last edited:

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yep, just another one of the many terrible purchases made.
Should have gone with the 3 x Aegir 18A which would have all be in service 4 years ago.

Australian Aegir 18A Info

Yet another failed captains pick by politicians prone to being misled by shiny brochures and reimagined performance.

Interesting the Australian built navantia designed destroyers are doing just fine, showing the delays in build, redesign work and "gold plating" by ASC was probably worth it.

Imagine what could have been achieved if Australia had design input as well.
 

TScott

Member
I actually like the idea of forward basing in PNG. in my view has a lot of merit. I'll note that PNG recently signed security deals with the Australian Government, and I would suggest they still remember what it feals like to be invaded by a hostile force and have a massive land battle in your home.

We often talk about the Australians that died in PNG, however we forget the horrific depopulation that occured for the locals over about three years of vicious occupation and frontline combat.

PNG forward basing provides us an extra 1,300km range from Darwin, an enormus buffer and a second safety net over the maritime archipelago choke points. Yes it comes with a lot of logistical requirements, but that is what the defence force is being set up to do. I would see it not too much different to RAAF Curtin or Learmonth. Perhaps we should consider a similar bare base preparation in PNG.

We could forward deploy an F35 and P8 squadron, protected by an army littoral deployment (with said NASAMS, HIMARS and SkyCeptor missile defences) if the geopolicial climate deteriorates. PNG has over 20 airports dotted around its countryside, so it offers a lot of flexibility to move around and disperse.

I would actually expand the the concept to some of the Pacific islands, such as Fiji or New Caledonia.

My personal view is that F35s, and even P8s have limited use operating exclusively out of the Australian continent. They are much more use way out front stopping things getting to Australian waters in the first place.
Further Lombrum (Manus Island) forward deployment investment/purchase should be a big consideration.

Pacific Island Foreign Legion within the ADF of some description. 5 years service = Australian citizenship. 5,000-10,000 force specialist trained for Pacific Operations.

A proposed Fiji training base for this force.

Lombrum main base.


$8-$15b initial investment in the Lombrum base. Deep Port, fuel storage, dry docks. Runways, hangers, control towers etc. phased array radar etc. Australian project managed. PNG general construction labor to keep costs down. Investment in training local construction industry in countries largest ever project.

Sub facilities, Docks capable of receiving USN carriers and all current RAN assets (Canberra's etc)

Airfield capable of housing RAAF F35's, Hornets, P-8's as well as US B-21's etc.

Missile defence systems from Manus Island - Aegis Ashore, NASAMS, THAAD, NSM, HIMARS/Prsm, etc

Drones - Try and leverage this investment with involvement in the RQ-180 project with the USA. MQ-9B Skyguardians to operate from there and further P8 investment to support it. Could future stage the Ghost bats and underwater drone etc from here also.


Can support humanitarian and disaster response through PNG, Solomon Islands also.

1,800km from Guam. In range and can be used for co-operation logistical support and layered missile defense choke point between between the two to protect the global shipping lanes exiting the South China sea towards Northern Australia.

Tindal, Guam and the Phillipines (Cebu) are all within operational support range for F/35's, F/18's from Lombrum also.

It ticks so many boxes. There's your GDP defense budget spending increase also to keep the USA happy.

An Australian controlled mini Guam, within support range of all key pacific island assets and a lot of key region neighbours (Indonesia, Vietnam, Phillipines) (as well as Northern Australia if required) and right on the door step of the South China Sea.

Even better, rather than spending $750m AUD on a PNG NRL team..... we can already re-allocate and come up with 5-10% of the budget instantly and spend it in the same country...

China would absolutely hate it. RAN assets could be in operational range of Taiwan in 2-3 days from there. A Hobart could reach Guam in 30 hours.
 
Last edited:

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member

Im not sure Momote is ideal for F-35A..
F-18/F-35C/F-35B would be able to operate. But the B is short ranged. Also no probe refuelling aircraft could operate there either.
Historically our focus has been on Malacca and Butterworth.

P8 and E7 can operae out of there. C130 with refuelling capabilities could operate there as well.
 

d-ron84

Member
Yep, just another one of the many terrible purchases made.
Should have gone with the 3 x Aegir 18A which would have all been in service 4 years ago.

Australian Aegir 18A Info

My post from 2018,

What I heard was that the deal for Daewoo to build the two Aegir’s was virtually done, but the government took too long to agree to the contract and the free space in their build availability was filled by other orders.
They were also supposed to have more common systems with the LHDs and DDGs then what the Cantabria’s will have.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
Im not sure Momote is ideal for F-35A..
F-18/F-35C/F-35B would be able to operate. But the B is short ranged. Also no probe refuelling aircraft could operate there either.
Historically our focus has been on Malacca and Butterworth.

P8 and E7 can operae out of there. C130 with refuelling capabilities could operate there as well.
I think the post referenced spending "$8-$15b initial investment in the Lombrum base" and probably a similar on Momote enhancing "runways, hangers, control towers etc. phased array radar etc"

"An Australian controlled mini Guam ..."


I like ambition and left-field ideas, but again we have to work within certain parameters. We should reference ourselves on the output of the existing Joint Initiative at Lombrum Naval Base (PNG) where we can rest assured we have subsequently improved the fence, built a community chapel, and built a few medical huts etc with a bit more planned.

I know I am being a little trite, but if we want "an Australian controlled mini Guam ..." I think we better look elsewhere.

I assume the best we can hope for is get what the PNG Govt can accept (in light of not upsetting China) and after the Manus Province Governor gets his pound of flesh. I sadly anticipate it will be a bigger wharf, some better infrastructure, some fuel storage, better housing (copurposed for civilian needs as well) and maybe an apron extension at the airport. Call me unambitious but that for me is realistic considering the political, economic and societal circumstances present.

Now if we can only establish a "an Australian controlled mini Guam ..." in Darwin. That's be a good start.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
PNG is concerned about China. They have enough problems with out China coming, and at best, splashing loan money into complicated politics, or worse, dropping bombs on them.

Currently we don't have the assets for a mini-guam. We our flat out with our existing maritime commitments and aircraft commitments. Manus/Momote does make a useful forward position. Im not sure F-35s make sense there. More useful would be growlers or SH armed with SM-6 and LRASM, neither of which are integrated currently on the F-35A. Being stealthy doesn't really help, home territory patrols. Part of that is that you want to be seen doing them.

Chinese fighters are still very far away. We are talking about engaging with long range bombers, or patrol or strategic lift aircraft.
Australia does have significant power at Butterworth, combined with the Singaporean and Malaysian forces, maybe even indonesian forces. However, that area is a key focus for all powers. It will likely come under significant pressure.
 
Top