NZDF General discussion thread

[Gooey]

The DefMin saying the right things but, to be very generous, it is really 10 years too late.

Collins said the Zunyi was a “formidable” ship, and the presence of the vessels was a “wake-up call”.

“New Zealanders have been told for years by the political classes that they can just rest easy, do nothing on defence, and expect that our distance from much of the world will protect us,” she said.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

If this was not so serious, this would be quite funny.

I wonder if the lovies at RNZ and Stuff will ask their beloved Helen Clark if having the ACF now would be a useful thing?

Or, which cluster made the decision to reduce the ANZAC build from 4 (2 + 2 options) to 2 and, separately, not fit them with anti-ship weapons ... 'cause you would never need that in a naval combatant.

She'll be right, our fiercely independent world horse-whispering makes us special. Thank God for our anti-nuclear legislation, that'll show the yanks that we are concerned about humanity.

We will have much more of this when the Cooks and Solomon's are forward deployment bases for the PLAN and PLAAF.

Laugh; my head fell off!

 

[recce.k1]

Seriously, I would like to thank the CCP, this is yet another example of their bumbling Pacific foreign policy agenda which will only strengthen public suspicion against them and strengthen public opinion and governmental efforts to counter them.

It appears even the Cook Islands PM is now talking things down in terms to their recently signed agreement (he is now saying the details have yet to be finalised). The next Pacific Islands Forum will be interesting as there will be questions asked of the CI PM from his fellow PI counterparts and he will have to face them, with the environmental groups speaking out with louder voices applying further pressure.

Freedom of navigation is one thing but suggest non pre-announced live firing is another, which will have flow-on effects and be ingrained in Pacific peoples memory and history (I’m including A/NZ), of the recklessness of the CCP, especially if this is repeated by them in the future.

These bullying tactics are not the “Pacific way” and provides a modern day example of “Colonialism” overtones being perpetuated by so called “friends” (and in contrast to the West which has acknowledged historical hurt and has been making amends).

Just like firing of an ICBM into a well-known and declared Pacific nuclear free zone, whoever the “geniuses” were in the CCP that approved of these latest misadventures surely deserves both thanks, and mocking, for eroding their stature in the eyes of the people they wish to be besties with. Well done!

 

[Catalina]

The 2025 Communist Chinese Party naval interdiction of the critical seal lane between New Zealand and Australia through the CCP's purposeful display of its growing seaborne firepower is the greatest attack on the freedom of NZ since WWII.

New Zealand military aircraft have been ordered by Communist Chinese warships in the Tasman Sea as allied aircraft and shipping suddenly are suddenly diverted by this latest confirmation of Communist Chinese South Pacific military expansion.

Nothing the Communist Chinese Party, bent on South Pacific domination, does is without planning and purpose.

The CCP ordered Communist Chinese warships to locate themselves directly between New Zealand and Australia and conduct a live weapon firing demonstration to interdict and block the air and sea lanes between New Zealand and Australia. This Communist Chinese military expansion into the Tasman Sea is the first time the absolutely critical sea lane of communication between New Zealand and Australia has been blocked since the Tasman Sea missions of Imperial Japanese submarines and Nazi German warships in World War Two.

Communist Chinese warships are also harassing both New Zealand military and civilian aircraft. A New Zealand military plane (one of our brand new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft) was ordered by the Chinese ship to “stay away”. The aircraft responded that it was in international waters conducting lawful operations. The Chinese ship responded that the aircraft “would be endangered if it came to within 19 nautical miles of the ship”, AFR reported its source as saying.

The location is in the Tasman Sea, 340nm south east of Sydney.

The Communist Chinese battlefleet is being tracked by the Royal New Zealand Navy and Royal New Zealand Airforce, and the Royal Australian Navy and Royal Australian Air Force.

Units involved are the Communist Chinese PLAN Southern Theater Command Navy (South Sea Fleet) Task Group 107 comprising
the Type 055 Renhai-class cruiser Zunyi
the Type 054A Jiangkai-class frigate Hengyang
the Type 903 Fuchi-class replenishment ship Weishanhu

Opposing them are the allied forces comprising

the New Zealand ANZAC-class frigate HMNZS Te Kaha
a New Zealand P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft
the Australian ANZAC-class frigate HMAS Arunta
an Australian a New Zealand P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft

If you want the Tasman Sea interdicted and blocked whenever Communist Chinese battle fleets wish, continue the absurd prioritsing of funding our ineffective army over our Navy.

It was our Navy that kept New Zealand safe in World War Two, and it is our Navy that will keep us, and the Realm of New Zealand extending from Antarctica across the South Pacific to Tokulea, safe in the future.

This Communist Chinese maritime attack on the freedom of movement of New Zealand shipping and aircraft must motivate our government to both boost defence spending and reallocate its ridiculous pro-Army anti-Navy allocation - where 38% of our defence budget currently goes to the army and only 26% to our Navy.

We need four combat frigates, we need them now. Prioritize Naval over army funding and lets keep our sea lanes which our island nation depends on, clear and free of Communist Chinese warships, for one thing is certain, with the Cook Islands signing a secret maritime agreement with Communist China, more PLAN warships, in every increasing size and capability, are on their way...

 

[At lakes]

Well there is a possible Tropical Cyclone may develop in the Carol sea over the next week, so if these clowns head north within the week they may get a bumpy ride home and the cyclone may dampen their spirits a wee bit

 

[Rob c]

It was our Navy that kept New Zealand safe in World War Two, and it is our Navy that will keep us, and the Realm of New Zealand extending from Antarctica across the South Pacific to Tokulea, safe in the future.

How you think that it was the navy of 2 cruisers that kept us safe in ww2 I would be interested I to know.

We need four combat frigates, we need them now. Prioritize Naval over army funding and lets keep our sea lanes which our island nation depends on, clear and free of Communist Chinese warships.

Yes this would be a minimum, however 4 figates is not going to keep the Tasman clear of CCP naval assets. However airpower correctly used can.

 

[T.C.P]

The 2025 Communist Chinese Party naval interdiction of the critical seal lane between New Zealand and Australia through the CCP's purposeful display of its growing seaborne firepower is the greatest attack on the freedom of NZ since WWII.

New Zealand military aircraft have been ordered by Communist Chinese warships in the Tasman Sea as allied aircraft and shipping suddenly are suddenly diverted by this latest confirmation of Communist Chinese South Pacific military expansion.

Nothing the Communist Chinese Party, bent on South Pacific domination, does is without planning and purpose.

The CCP ordered Communist Chinese warships to locate themselves directly between New Zealand and Australia and conduct a live weapon firing demonstration to interdict and block the air and sea lanes between New Zealand and Australia. This Communist Chinese military expansion into the Tasman Sea is the first time the absolutely critical sea lane of communication between New Zealand and Australia has been blocked since the Tasman Sea missions of Imperial Japanese submarines and Nazi German warships in World War Two.

Communist Chinese warships are also harassing both New Zealand military and civilian aircraft. A New Zealand military plane (one of our brand new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft) was ordered by the Chinese ship to “stay away”. The aircraft responded that it was in international waters conducting lawful operations. The Chinese ship responded that the aircraft “would be endangered if it came to within 19 nautical miles of the ship”, AFR reported its source as saying.

The location is in the Tasman Sea, 340nm south east of Sydney.

The Communist Chinese battlefleet is being tracked by the Royal New Zealand Navy and Royal New Zealand Airforce, and the Royal Australian Navy and Royal Australian Air Force.

Units involved are the Communist Chinese PLAN Southern Theater Command Navy (South Sea Fleet) Task Group 107 comprising
the Type 055 Renhai-class cruiser Zunyi
the Type 054A Jiangkai-class frigate Hengyang
the Type 903 Fuchi-class replenishment ship Weishanhu

Opposing them are the allied forces comprising

the New Zealand ANZAC-class frigate HMNZS Te Mana
a New Zealand P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft
the Australian ANZAC-class frigate HMAS Arunta
an Australian a New Zealand P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft

If you want the Tasman Sea interdicted and blocked whenever Communist Chinese battle fleets wish, continue the absurd prioritsing of funding our ineffective army over our Navy.

It was our Navy that kept New Zealand safe in World War Two, and it is our Navy that will keep us, and the Realm of New Zealand extending from Antarctica across the South Pacific to Tokulea, safe in the future.

This Communist Chinese maritime attack on the freedom of movement of New Zealand shipping and aircraft must motivate our government to both boost defence spending and reallocate its ridiculous pro-Army anti-Navy allocation - where 38% of our defence budget currently goes to the army and only 26% to our Navy.

We need four combat frigates, we need them now. Prioritize Naval over army funding and lets keep our sea lanes which our island nation depends on, clear and free of Communist Chinese warships.

Remind me again, what sort of Chinese are these?

Jokes aside, if RNZAF wanted to restart their jet wing, realistically how many years would it take? What would be the best most cost effective option?

First order of business wouldbe to get some advanced trainers. Would it make more sense for New Zealand to go to a Korean fa-50, and Kf-21 route? Or a European trainer into Typhoon/Gripen route? Or a more traditional American route with eventual F-16/F-15Ex direction?

 

[Xthenaki]

TO MOVE FORWARD - Where do we start?
Countries with defence forces that we can aspire to and have similar sized populations are Denmark, Finland and Norway (Europe) and Singapore (Asia).
Where do we invest first. PERSONNEL - Wages and benefits still need a massive lift to become competitive. We need to bring back experienced ex staff members and train new recruits (its gonna cost). ACCOMODATION upgrades need to continue. EQUIPMENT - We should look at supplying new equipment in batches. We need to order 2 frigates with Aus now. IF the Mogami is chosen they are likely to upgrade as newer versions are released by Japan so the following 2 to be ordered would be upgraded versions or a newer type of vessel. We should join the Aus GP3000 frigate continuous shipbuild program if that evolves. It would provide structure for our future NAVY. Yes it will be expensive but our kit is identical and maintenance is just across "the ditch". More pressing is a min of 5 MH60 MR's to replace the Seasprites. AIR FORCE - 2 more P8;s and LRASM's. a new mid range of GP helos (5 min) between the NH90's and AW109's and finally the B757 replacement. I have not assessed the ARMY although it is as CRITICAL.

 

[Sandson41]

Remind me again, what sort of Chinese are these?

Jokes aside, if RNZAF wanted to restart their jet wing, realistically how many years would it take? What would be the best most cost effective option?

First order of business wouldbe to get some advanced trainers. Would it make more sense for New Zealand to go to a Korean fa-50, and Kf-21 route? Or a European trainer into Typhoon/Gripen route? Or a more traditional American route with eventual F-16/F-15Ex direction?

I don't know if NZ has the money for any of that. If it insisted, I'd suggest they piggyback off RAAF training squadrons, maybe chip in to help expand/replace the fleet when its due?
Pilot training could commence very quickly if that were the case.
As for fighters - I have no idea. NZ is a small nation without huge buckets of cash. I'd suggest sticking to maritime patrol/strike with the P-8s personally, as have others.

TO MOVE FORWARD - Where do we start?
Countries with defence forces that we can aspire to and have similar sized populations are Denmark, Finland and Norway (Europe) and Singapore (Asia).
Where do we invest first. PERSONNEL - Wages and benefits still need a massive lift to become competitive. We need to bring back experienced ex staff members and train new recruits (its gonna cost). ACCOMODATION upgrades need to continue. EQUIPMENT - We should look at supplying new equipment in batches. We need to order 2 frigates with Aus now. IF the Mogami is chosen they are likely to upgrade as newer versions are released by Japan so the following 2 to be ordered would be upgraded versions or a newer type of vessel. We should join the Aus GP3000 frigate continuous shipbuild program if that evolves. It would provide structure for our future NAVY. Yes it will be expensive but our kit is identical and maintenance is just across "the ditch". More pressing is a min of 5 MH60 MR's to replace the Seasprites. AIR FORCE - 2 more P8;s and LRASM's. a new mid range of GP helos (5 min) between the NH90's and AW109's and finally the B757 replacement. I have not assessed the ARMY although it is as CRITICAL.

I would expect the army to be kept as lightweight and mobile as possible. Maybe emphasize marine/littoral training as part of the Australian Army is starting to do? Maybe but a few HIMARS or Strikemaster? Seems doable without taking money from a new navy.

 

[Xthenaki]

TO MOVE FORWARD - Where do we start?
Countries with defence forces that we can aspire to and have similar sized populations are Denmark, Finland and Norway (Europe) and Singapore (Asia).
Where do we invest first. PERSONNEL - Wages and benefits still need a massive lift to become competitive. We need to bring back experienced ex staff members and train new recruits (its gonna cost). ACCOMODATION upgrades need to continue. EQUIPMENT - We should look at supplying new equipment in batches. We need to order 2 frigates with Aus now. IF the Mogami is chosen they are likely to upgrade as newer versions are released by Japan so the following 2 to be ordered would be upgraded versions or a newer type of vessel. We should join the Aus GP3000 frigate continuous shipbuild program if that evolves. It would provide structure for our future NAVY. Yes it will be expensive but our kit is identical and maintenance is just across "the ditch". More pressing is a min of 5 MH60 MR's to replace the Seasprites. AIR FORCE - 2 more P8;s and LRASM's. a new mid range of GP helos (5 min) between the NH90's and AW109's and finally the B757 replacement. I have not assessed the ARMY although it is as CRITICAL.

Further - When we order new equipment we need to be careful that we order at the beginning or say at the most five years after an initial purchase by our allies. We would want to share the same life cycle that they have in mind for that item and then continue with the next replacement.

 

[Hawkeye69]

Navy top brass last year while in Australia said they wanted to be part of their tier 2 frigate replacement which is SEA 3000.
The MR-60R Seahawk should be a shoe in now and i would be picking 8.
I would also be picking at least 1x extra P-8A and an extra C-130J.

The Air Force 100% needs mid range helicopter, the 109 is the training platform and the NH90 the deployable battlefield platform, an off the shelf AW139 would fill the role nicely, excellent for search and rescue and disaster relief.

 

[jbc388]

TO MOVE FORWARD - Where do we start?
Countries with defence forces that we can aspire to and have similar sized populations are Denmark, Finland and Norway (Europe) and Singapore (Asia).
Where do we invest first. PERSONNEL - Wages and benefits still need a massive lift to become competitive. We need to bring back experienced ex staff members and train new recruits (its gonna cost). ACCOMODATION upgrades need to continue. EQUIPMENT - We should look at supplying new equipment in batches. We need to order 2 frigates with Aus now. IF the Mogami is chosen they are likely to upgrade as newer versions are released by Japan so the following 2 to be ordered would be upgraded versions or a newer type of vessel. We should join the Aus GP3000 frigate continuous shipbuild program if that evolves. It would provide structure for our future NAVY. Yes it will be expensive but our kit is identical and maintenance is just across "the ditch". More pressing is a min of 5 MH60 MR's to replace the Seasprites. AIR FORCE - 2 more P8;s and LRASM's. a new mid range of GP helos (5 min) between the NH90's and AW109's and finally the B757 replacement. I have not assessed the ARMY although it is as CRITICAL.

5 x MH-60's is not enought the navy needs more like 12 of these, The airforce needs 3 more C-130Js, 2/3 x P8's, 16-20 x Blackhawks to replace the plastic NH-90s, also at least 12x AW-109s they are very good aircraft, Also more texan IIs trainers that also be used as COIN/light attack as well.
Navy needs 4+ frigates, replacement for the Canterbury with a well deck,4 x OPV'S and armed with modern antiship, antiair weapons.
Army needs anti drone systems, more anti armour weapons, updated APC's, Anti aircraft defense, longer ranged mobile Arty.As well a 3 or 4 properly equipted infantry Bn's with capable reserve Bn's

 

[T.C.P]

As for fighters - I have no idea. NZ is a small nation without huge buckets of cash. I'd suggest sticking to maritime patrol/strike with the P-8s personally, as have others.

See, I dont get this. My country is much poorer than yours and we can maintain a jet wing, and our gdp spent on defense is lower than 1.5%. There are countries pooer than mine who have jetwings.

Now granted that it will be more expensive for New Zealand, as they have to build up a jetwing from scratch, as they totally dismantled their previous one, but it cant be that expensive.

If NZ makes a 5-7 billion dollar commitment, they can have 16 4.5 Gens fully integrated in 5 years.

 

[Alberto32]

If NZ is seriously looking at a EW aircraft, then look at what Kawasaki are doing with the P1. Let them take the risk of development, and see if we can piggy back on a fee aircraft for ourselves, while the li e is warm to hot.

Japan Pushing Domestically-Developed Electronic Warfare Aircraft based on the Kawasaki P-1 MPA

The Japan MoD said that aircraft like the EP-3, the EW variant of the P-3C Orion, itself being replaced by the P-1 where it uses both the U.S.-origin

theaviationist.com

 

[Alberto32]

5 x MH-60's is not enought the navy needs more like 12 of these, The airforce needs 3 more C-130Js, 2/3 x P8's, 16-20 x Blackhawks to replace the plastic NH-90s, also at least 12x AW-109s they are very good aircraft, Also more texan IIs trainers that also be used as COIN/light attack as well.
Navy needs 4+ frigates, replacement for the Canterbury with a well deck,4 x OPV'S and armed with modern antiship, antiair weapons.
Army needs anti drone systems, more anti armour weapons, updated APC's, Anti aircraft defense, longer ranged mobile Arty.As well a 3 or 4 properly equipted infantry Bn's with capable reserve Bn's

Would you consider a look at a Royal Marine Commando regiment for the NZ Navy? Thus putting in place our littoral/Marine based fighting force equivalent of soldier.. We also need to look at how to counter GNSS degradation and also a possibility of a joint satellite based communication system that is more mobile and not as easy to be taken out by satellite killer missiles.

 

[Alberto32]

5 x MH-60's is not enought the navy needs more like 12 of these, The airforce needs 3 more C-130Js, 2/3 x P8's, 16-20 x Blackhawks to replace the plastic NH-90s, also at least 12x AW-109s they are very good aircraft, Also more texan IIs trainers that also be used as COIN/light attack as well.
Navy needs 4+ frigates, replacement for the Canterbury with a well deck,4 x OPV'S and armed with modern antiship, antiair weapons.
Army needs anti drone systems, more anti armour weapons, updated APC's, Anti aircraft defense, longer ranged mobile Arty.As well a 3 or 4 properly equipted infantry Bn's with capable reserve Bn's

You'll also need a heavy lift helicopter capability, with the Chinook for land based operations , and possibly the Super Stallion for sea based and being foldable to put into transport vessels. Yes it's costly, but a reality is we need a marinised version of this to avoid erosion damage.

 

[jbc388]

Would you consider a look at a Royal Marine Commando regiment for the NZ Navy? Thus putting in place our littoral/Marine based fighting force equivalent of soldier.. We also need to look at how to counter GNSS degradation and also a possibility of a joint satellite based communication system that is more mobile and not as easy to be taken out by satellite killer missiles.

No I wouldn't do the royal marine commando regiment for the navy as having enough manpower do do everything is going to be a tough challange which defence is going to have to work out!!
A Batt from the army could be rotated through that type of training with 2 year postings but infantry plus support units are going to have to increased in size/numbers! plus the navy and air force staffing will both have to be increased = more funding needed.
Mobile satellite comms I think that they are already onto that hopefully?

It's going to be expensive but will just have to be done!! and the Leadership of the NZDF will have to stand up and get things done!!

 

[Alberto32]

No I wouldn't do the royal marine commando regiment for the navy as having enough manpower do do everything is going to be a tough challange which defence is going to have to work out!!
A Batt from the army could be rotated through that type of training with 2 year postings but infantry plus support units are going to have to increased in size/numbers! plus the navy and air force staffing will both have to be increased = more funding needed.
Mobile satellite comms I think that they are already onto that hopefully?

It's going to be expensive but will just have to be done!! and the Leadership of the NZDF will have to stand up and get things done!!

Fair enough. Also, way to get housing built, and possibly useful for the public later on, is to have the public invest in defence housing. Say over a 10 year lease, it gets maintenance done, guaranteed rental income, and regular tenants that you know aren't going to trash the place. They have a similar scheme in Australia. Defence Housing Australia I believe it's called.

 

[OldTex]

Ideally our army will mold into a tighter smaller marine force under our Navy. Our land forces need to drop their obsession with artillery and vehicles and focus on drones and anti-ship missiles. Ideally we should create a single Littoral Marine Battalion, as per the USMC 3rd Marine Littoral Regiment, which can interdict its littoral environs.

The NZ Army should not become a USMC lite replica for several reasons.

Firstly the USMC, through its Commandant, was trying to find a niche role that would ensure the Corps continued in the event of greatly constrained budgets. The USMC over a long period of time had morphed from specialist amphibious warfare troops into just another version of the US Army. The USMC has started to divest itself of much of the equipment needed for broad spectrum conventional warfare. It is able to do this because there is the US Army is there to cover the broad spectrum conventional warfare tasks.

Secondly if the NZ Army became marine-lite under the RNZN the bean counters would take the opportunity to reduce the budget allocation for the NZDF. It would be justified on the basis of there were only 2 services to fund rather than 3. The reduction in the defence vote would not be 33% but would be much closer to 50%. This level of reduction would be justified on the basis that the RNZN and The RNZAF are significantly smaller than NZ Army based on manpower. NZ Army manpower is a reflection of the broad spectrum conventional warfare tasks that the NZ Govt has assigned them. If the Army was reduced to a marine-lite establishment under RNZN then in the event of greatly reduced budget allocations RNZN would in all likelihood direct most of the resourcing to preserve the "Fleet".

Thirdly once broad spectrum conventional warfare skills and expertise is lost it will cost significantly more, both in money and time, to regenerate those lost capabilities. The loss of the RNZAF ACF is an example of exactly this effect. It would be the same in suggesting Army become a lightweight version of the USMC.

 

[OldNavy63]

Maybe the first priority in rebuilding the NZDF is to sack half of the bean-counters.

 

[Alberto32]

Maybe the first priority in rebuilding the NZDF is to sack half of the bean-counters.

And lose the capital charge that Treasury placed on them.