Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

Well, Sigma 10514 also come as FFBNW, and until all equipment including VL Mica being retrofit, it is also just a Patrol Vessels and not Light Frigate for more than 3 years. Question will be how long the FFBNW contract will be implement after main contract equipment has been installed later on.

TNI After all still believe on getting main equipment first and refurbished or upgrade later on. That's how they are preparing budget so far. Which is why when they bought PPA even though it is on Light + configuration,it is already better move then usual FFBNW.

Still FFBNW I still see will stay, the OPV-90/98 also FFBNW. All vessels they are procure from local yards mostly are in FFBNW. This includes the Coast Guard (Bakamla). It is tradition that's seems going to stay for considerable time frame.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia’s Merah Putih-class Frigate: What You Need to Know - Naval News

A newly released infographic of the under-construction 140-meter frigate for the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL)—known as the Red White Frigate (Fregat Merah Putih)—reveals key details of its combat system configuration.

www.navalnews.com

Just summary on the equipment lists of FMP by Naval News contributors. This confirm that Mete Han Radar systems is actually Cafrad system similar that Aselsan prepare for TF-2000 AAW Destroyer.

I know many comments including in Indonesian forums in why the VLS and Missiles in it not being included in the Main Contract but on additional next FFBNW contract. Well they are focusing on sensors and radars, just like what they do with SIGMA 10514 projects. All main armaments will be fitted later on. I suspect they are going to prepare the space and supporting pipelines to VLS as in SIGMA projects. Then later on when budget available they are going to install on the prepare space.

Add:
Just like I heard from finance guys, future deals with Turkiye will be finance between Indonesia-Turkiye Banks using direct TRY-IDR. If this is true, then it is also why Turkiye gaining ground with Indonesian procurement.

 

[x100 XKR]

Indonesia’s Merah Putih-class Frigate: What You Need to Know - Naval News

A newly released infographic of the under-construction 140-meter frigate for the Indonesian Navy (TNI AL)—known as the Red White Frigate (Fregat Merah Putih)—reveals key details of its combat system configuration.

www.navalnews.com

Just summary on the equipment lists of FMP by Naval News contributors. This confirm that Mete Han Radar systems is actually Cafrad system similar that Aselsan prepare for TF-2000 AAW Destroyer.

I know many comments including in Indonesian forums in why the VLS and Missiles in it not being included in the Main Contract but on additional next FFBNW contract. Well they are focusing on sensors and radars, just like what they do with SIGMA 10514 projects. All main armaments will be fitted later on. I suspect they are going to prepare the space and supporting pipelines to VLS as in SIGMA projects. Then later on when budget available they are going to install on the prepare space.

Add:
Just like I heard from finance guys, future deals with Turkiye will be finance between Indonesia-Turkiye Banks using direct TRY-IDR. If this is true, then it is also why Turkiye gaining ground with Indonesian procurement.

Thks for putting things in perspective. 'Follow the money' I guess. It'd be interesting to observe how big of a time gap between the initial commissioning and the eventual fit out.

I guess the financing scheme offered by Turkiye could be a game changer for Indo. Probably not a bad thing. I expect the traditional players will have to react to this or surrender future opportunities.

 

[Ananda]

Is Light Carrier or LHD right time for TNI-AL ?

This is the question that many Indonesian enthusiasts and Defense media pondering. Is this the right time to have that capabilities?

TNI-AL interest with Light Carrier is not come out this time. In 2014-15 they have done serious talks with Spain and Navantia and even conduct serious check on Principe de Asturias in Ferrol. The question always can Light Carrier be afforded on present level of Operational Budget?

Even now there're questions on some parliament members on the fuel and operating budget, as bigger proportion of maritime security vessels (Navy, Coastguard, Fisheries and Customs) stay in harbour then patrolling. So the money trails has to not only able to procure but provide enough calculations on operating them. Will that be enough ?

Put again this picture, as the LHD design in this PAL picture shown not only helicopters but also UAV on the deck. This shown the big pull for UAV Carrier operation is one of main attractions for this LHD/Light Carrier.



Then the question why not the 163m LPD. This Al Maryah class LPD costing around USD 400+mio. Could the flight deck be use for OPV operation? My suspicion yes it can, but with less capacity. Thus they (MinDef) can argue with that kind of budget, we better operate second hand Carrier that can provide UAV operation platform.

This from what I heard is genuine argument that some in MinDef talk with finance guys in MoF and Bapenas. Argument the budget for 1 LPD (potentially Al Maryah class) being relocate to Garibaldi. There're also other arguments for Garibaldi from what I heard being talk to finance guys:

• Eventough it is four decade old, but still have potential to be retain for another decade or up to 2040. This because it is having thorough upgrade a decade ago,
• Fincantieri offer package of upgrade and recondition, but also offering tech transfer to PAL. I suspect it will be Fincantieri offer to finalise PAL LHD design.

PAL LHD design seems shown similarities with Anadolu thus Juan Carlos 1. However the dimensions closer to Fincantieri Trieste. Perhaps Fincantieri offer will also bring their design with Trieste flavour.

So with signing on UAV production, LHD design by PAL, it is going to happen sooner or later. We as enthusiasts can only questions, but all the traction going to be there. Personally I just wish if they are going with plan on procuring Garibaldi, do with other preparation for effective operational environment.

Got suspicion that at least 1 PAL LHD going to be produce at least by end of this decade. The momentum seems going to that like it or not. How this translate to efficient and effective TNI-AL operation is the big question.

 

[swerve]

That LHD looks identical to Juan Carlos (except a mirror image - island on wrong side), but 12 metres longer. A hull plug?

243m is almost the same length as Trieste, but the picture is very different indeed.

 

[Ananda]

PAL shown several designs on that presentation, all already in development, or in process. The only design still in question is that LHD. I suspect that design is not final yet.

PAL need Babcock design help to increase the FMP from 138m to 140m.This is for surface escort combatan that PAL already have exposure before.

I have serious doubt they can enlarge 12m of an LHD design, something they are not experiencing before, by their own. Which's why I suspect they are still looking for Partner to finish that design. That's where Fincantieri coming (from what I gather), after all they have experience on larger LHD/Light Carrier compare to Navantia (which I also heard talking with PAL also).

 

[Meriv90]

If not wrong we also helped with the INS Vikrant

 

[StingrayOZ]

That LHD looks identical to Juan Carlos (except a mirror image - island on wrong side), but 12 metres longer. A hull plug?

It could just be flipped in photoshop for publicity purposes.

A lengthened JC1 type design would be very interesting. Turkies LHD had a number of modifications, and improved JC1 design would be of interest to several nations in a a few years. A design like this could already be kicking around.

 

[Ananda]

we also helped with the INS Vikrant

Vikrant if we see it, clearly shown design derived from Carvour. We can call it enlarge Carvour design.

The progress on UAV design and Turkiye prove of concept to make LHD as drone carrier already make the attraction for LHD/Light Carrier increase. At least in Indonesia there's serious consideration to reduce plan numbers of LPD on getting at least one LHD/Light Carrier operation.

TNI-AL currently have 5 LPD and seems the study that I see plan for 8. Budget can not be increase and even now potential can be reduce as Prabowo's aim to redirect budgets for his campaign promises projects. Thus reallocation LPD budgets for LHD/Light Carrier the I suspect likely what will happen, especially as MinDef now shown serious indication to pursue the drones Carrier concept.

 

[76mmGuns]

That LHD looks identical to Juan Carlos (except a mirror image - island on wrong side), but 12 metres longer. A hull plug?

243m is almost the same length as Trieste, but the picture is very different indeed.

I wonder why countries look at the Spanish Juan Carlos carrier and not the Trieste. Being an armchair enthusiast, I like the weapons in the Trieste. Why you wouldn't put as many weapons on your most expensive naval hardware is beyond me.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Amidst all that ... I did not even notice the marker of 'Fitted For But Not With'. So after all is said and done, the Navy will have 2 giant OPV with gun only armaments. Wonderful.

Well, Sigma 10514 also come as FFBNW, and until all equipment including VL Mica being retrofit, it is also just a Patrol Vessels and not Light Frigate for more than 3 years. Question will be how long the FFBNW contract will be implement after main contract equipment has been installed later on.

TNI After all still believe on getting main equipment first and refurbished or upgrade later on. That's how they are preparing budget so far. Which is why when they bought PPA even though it is on Light + configuration,it is already better move then usual FFBNW.

Still FFBNW I still see will stay, the OPV-90/98 also FFBNW. All vessels they are procure from local yards mostly are in FFBNW. This includes the Coast Guard (Bakamla). It is tradition that's seems going to stay for considerable time frame.

If more advanced/expensive sensor and weaponsystems are installed/retrofitted shortly after the ships being commissioned, i wouldn't be a problem. But looking now to the recent situation in Indonesia, i am worrying about these programs. Like Ananda already said, president Prabowo wants suddenly budget cuts everywhere, to the point people loosing their jobs or civil servants have to work without the lights on and without airconditioning, in the name of 'being efficient'. And now the government wants to spend more than Rp14 trilyun on the new capital, Jokowi's personal prestige project. They even want to send people abroad to several countries to copy their designs for the new governmental buildings (studi banding!). It is like they try to spend the limited state budget in an as useless as possible way, in order nothing is left for real improvement and development.

I am a little bit disappointed, i thought our 8th president will be a real president, but now he is becoming more and more the pupil or even the servant of the ex-president.

 

[koxinga]

PAL shown several designs on that presentation, all already in development, or in process. The only design still in question is that LHD. I suspect that design is not final yet.

PAL need Babcock design help to increase the FMP from 138m to 140m.This is for surface escort combatan that PAL already have exposure before.

I have serious doubt they can enlarge 12m of an LHD design, something they are not experiencing before, by their own. Which's why I suspect they are still looking for Partner to finish that design. That's where Fincantieri coming (from what I gather), after all they have experience on larger LHD/Light Carrier compare to Navantia (which I also heard talking with PAL also).

A question I have is why go for ITS Garibaldi type design from Fincantieri.

If the stated intent is for tech transfer to PT PAL, the other route would be to acquire one of the used San Giorgio/San Giusto class. Those are due for retirement as well. This will then lead to the Kalaat Béni Abbès / Al Fuk class LHD, which are improved San Giustos. I would imagine this to be more affordable and lower risks.

A simplified version of the Kalaat Béni Abbès, minus the heavy anti-aircraft armaments and sensors would be affordable (Kalaat Béni Abbès, reportedly went for 400 million EUR), relative to a JC/Trieste LHD design.

 

[Ananda]

question I have is why go for ITS Garibaldi type design from Fincantieri.

This is my suspicion base on what they have said on media. Basic answer is what they are looking as primary intention is Drone Carrier concept Indonesia Weighs Aircraft Carrier Acquisition to Strengthen Maritime Operations and Security. If it is only for logistics or disaster relieves concern, then that 163m Al Maryah LPD is more than enough.

San Giorgio or San Giusto are more as LPD. They don't provide much difference Helicopter capabilities then Al Maryah. Thus I suspect Fincantieri understand that, and not offering that design to PAL. With that beef up Anadolu/Juan Carlos 1 design that PAL shown, it is clear where TNI-AL expectations/ambition lies. Remember the picture clearly shown drones from carrier deck.

I have heard studies to increase the number of LPD from current 5 to 8 LPD this decade, in which 6 will be Makasar Class and 2 will have same dimension with that UAE Al Maryah. Again base on rumours from finance guys, serious studies being conducted by MinDef to reduce the number of LPD target to enable them operating at least one Light Carrier/LHD.

The JV plan for TB3 (which primarily Baykar develop for carrier base operations) in my book shown another steps to operate drones carrier. Now with that either Fincantieri offering Garibaldi and (again rumours) the tech transfer on the design or they are working with PAL to help then finishing their current LHD design. It won't be Trieste design as whole, but some aspects of Trieste perhaps that being offer to finish that PAL beef up LHD design.

 

[koxinga]

San Giorgio or San Giusto are more as LPD. They don't provide much difference Helicopter capabilities then Al Maryah. Thus I suspect Fincantieri understand that, and not offering that design to PAL. With that beef up Anadolu/Juan Carlos 1 design that PAL shown, it is clear where TNI-AL expectations/ambition lies. Remember the picture clearly shown drones from carrier deck.

Yes, but they feature through deck designs, which can support drone operations. Likewise, Damen MPSS design (130 - 170 m) that is building for Portugual also has capabilities to manage both aviation and naval drones (Garibaldi does not do that) and offers more flexibility along with longer service lift.

All this talk about drones, and aviation, but TNI-AL's naval aviation capabilties are very limited to start with. Panthers for ASW but not medium lift naval helicopter like Blackhawk/NH and CONOPS for naval drones isn't very clear.

To date, I don't think anyone has come up with a clear operational concept of sustained drone operations. It's not about just flying one Anka drone off the carrier, but controlling a fleet of them. There is a sense of buying something then figure out what to do with it thinking.

Damen unveils new Multi-Purpose Support Ship | Damen

Damen unveils the MPSS, a new ship co-developed with the Portuguese Navy. It supports drone tech and offers versatile, cost-effective solutions.

www.damen.com

 

[Ananda]

Likewise, Damen MPSS design (130 - 170 m) that is building for Portugual also has capabilities to manage both aviation and naval drones (Garibaldi does not do that) and offers more flexibility along with longer service lift.

If Garibaldi is being procure it is interim solution as whatever end game is PAL LHD design. Fincantieri offer more as partner to finalise their design. This lead to potentially using enlarge and modified Garibaldi design or bring Trieste elements toward PAL LHD design. Well at least the offer that I heard from finance guys, when MinDef bring their case studies for LHD program.

In sense from I heard they argue procuring Garibaldi will costs couple LPD building program, but will provide TNI-AL with exposure on how to operate flat top.

TNI-AL's naval aviation capabilties are very limited to start with. Panthers for ASW but not medium lift naval helicopter like Blackhawk/NH and CONOPS for naval drones isn't very clear.

This is the main arguments on not operating flat top at this time period for TNI-AL. Something that I personally agree, and stated that on my previous posts. Limited Naval Aviation and Limited Escorts force available at this moment for TNI-AL to operate effectively. If Garibaldi being procure it is only going to be fill by Bell 412 as AS 365 will be use mostly on Corvettes and Frigates. The Blackhawk program is for Army, The H225 is for Air Force. The Navy in Jokowi's first term I heard studies Blackhawk vs KA-32, but I don't heard any progress on that.

That's why so far the Drones Carrier concept is in my opinion the main arguments actually they have to pursue flat top. The money trail so far seems shows to that direction. As no money trail for Navy for larger Helo then Bell 412 so far. The on substantial money trail program so far to fill this flat top is TB3 drones.

I suspect they are pursuing Hybrid Helo forces for Amphibious and Disaster relieves, with Army and Air Force Medium-Heavy Helicopter embark from Navy Flat Top. They might be pursue larger Helicopter for Navy later on. Still whether the concept for Drone Carrier still in development and not mature yet, it is have indication as main drive for TNI-AL current Flat Top program.

 

[Ananda]

Dankormar Terima Paparan Korean Amphibious Ashault Vehicles (KAAV)

www.portal-komando.com

Marines CO meet ROK delegation on the presentation of ROK KAAV Amphibious Vehicle. Replacing BTR-50 and later on LVT-7 already being talk like forever. There's talk on Turkish ZAHA will work with Pindad to license them and become replacement for overall BTR-50 and LVT-7.

However that talk seems dies down, and now Marines openly say they hope their interest with Korean KAAV will get approval from MinDef. Not clear whether this is KAAV-1 (which basically license upgrade of LVT-7) or the new develop KAAV-2. Considering the budget they usually allocate for Marines, I suspect KAAV-1.



Both Turkish Zaha and KAAV-2 are new in development and definitely will be above ussual budget allocate to Marines. I suspect with ROK moves on to KAAV-2 they got surplus relative new KAAV-1 that they can refurbished and export. Those I suspect on what they are presenting.



*all the picture from open online sources.

 

[koxinga]

new KAAV-1 that they can refurbished and export.

Not sure if they plan to release their AAV7s, but older upgraded versions of LVTP-7 similar to what was donated to Indonesia should be available. When the Philippines order was running into trouble (due to BAE licensing disagreements), one of the options were to fufill the contract using these older vehicles but more qty to compensate for the used nature.

 

[Ananda]

There're always talks how Marines taste more to Russian/East Euro origin, while Army has taste to Western Made equipment. I used to also agree on that, but after looking more on their budget allocations, I suspect the taste is more because Marines just got much lower budget allocations. Thus they have to go whoever going to provide them cheaper tag price.

They also want 155mm Self Propeled gun, but their budget can not afford with Nexter product, thus they go to Yugoimport product. So with this ROK offer, I tend to agree with refurbished older KAAV-1. However if they already solve their export licensing, perhaps they can offer newer KAAV-1. Either way, they simply can not maintain their BTR-50 much longer. Sometimes ago it's been circulating Marines effort taking out from storage and doing refurbished work on their AMX-10P. Marines inducate they are not really satisfy with those French Amphibious IFV, thus refurbishment effort shown they are desprete for Armoured Amphibious Vehicle.

 

[koxinga]

Re to clarify, BAE Systems in the US is the one that builds AAV7 (https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/assault-amphibious-vehicle) - when the Koreans (Hanwha) won the deal with the Philippines, they subcontracted out a large part of the work to BAE, with Hanwha just fitting out the vehicle towards the end.

They can sell you refurbished old KAAV-1s, but new KAAV-1 will need BAE again. This is probably the reason why Korea is keen to build their own KAAV-2.

 

[Ananda]

MİDLAS’ta Atmaca Füzesi Detayı Görüldü | SavunmaSanayiST

Roketsan MİDLAS Dikey Atım Sistemi, Atmaca Füzesi ile atış gerçekleştirmeye hazırlanıyor. Abu Dabi'deki IDEX 2025 Fuarı'nda bu konfigürasyonun modeli görüldü.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Put it in here instead Turkey Thread because it is the MIDLAS configuration that's being talk as choosen configuration for FMP.



Also put image from one of Indonesian Enthusiasts id Omdhil as his poster shown suppliers that involve in FMP project.

The Midlas configuration shown above consists SAM missiles Hisar as Mid-Longrange and Siper Short range and SSM at the form of Atmaca. This is in line with PAL info that the VLS will have capabilities to use both SAM and SSM.

More potential Missiles that Roketsan try to put in MIDLAS, but so far for FMP those 3 kind of Missiles that being talk going to equip. With Hisar it is also means they are shown similarities with Army Trisula Missiles defense projects.