Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

ROKETSAN Exhibits Its Newest Systems in DIMDEX 2024 | TURDEF

ROKETSAN has brought its existing and new munitions and weapon systems to the DIMDEX 2024 exhibition.

turdef.com

The Navy are notorious with their FFBNW mentality. Having big magazine VLS is nice, if they are loaded. If they are empty, it's like having an army of archers with large quivers but no arrows. What's the point?

FFBNW mentality coming from the condition of budget limitations. I put Roketsan naval Hisar and Siper news above shown why MinDef looking on Roketsan option and not just MBDA. It's all back to costs. MBDA missiles is more expensive then Roketsan ones, thus simply not affordable to go all the way on MBDA.

Before MinDef try to combine MBDA and Chinese suppliers, now seems they try to combine MBDA with Roketsan. In the end the basic reasoning back to the costs. With that condition, how they can expect to fill large amount of VLS ?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don't get the DDG obsession. FMP - which is based on Iver class has space for 32 cell mk 41, and the Iver has 2 additional 16 cell mk 56. The 2 mk 56, can probably be replaced with 2 8-cell mk 41 modules, bringing the total VLS magazine to 48. They can quad pack some w/ ESSMs. Let's say keep the original 32 cell mk 41 with Standard SAM, then the 2 8-cell modules with 64 ESSM. Or use Aster 30 and quad pack Seaceptor. That's DDG level load. We have not even addressed the 4 spots for the quad Harpoon on the Iver, which they can convert to more VLS.

You are spot on about enough missile inventory. The Navy are notorious with their FFBNW mentality. Having big magazine VLS is nice, if they are loaded. If they are empty, it's like having an army of archers with large quivers but no arrows. What's the point?

The solution can be the Iranian Moudge/Moj class of 'destroyers'. Enlarge them a little bit, put some 150 MANPADS on it, and then we have a Heavy Air Defence Missile Destroyer for very low costs......

Really a genius idea.




The destroyer obsession is as fanboyish as the obsession to have an aircraft carrier.
We don't urgently need them and we don't have the budget for it. Unless we got some empty FFBNW hulls.

It is exactly the same with the airforce, 33 F-16s and two batteries of NASAMS, but only 36 AIM-120s in the inventory.

 

[swerve]

I don't get the DDG obsession. FMP - which is based on Iver class has space for 32 cell mk 41, and the Iver has 2 additional 16 cell mk 56. The 2 mk 56, can probably be replaced with 2 8-cell mk 41 modules, bringing the total VLS magazine to 48. They can quad pack some w/ ESSMs. ...

The Mk56 is much shorter than Mk41. Depending on the length, the Mk 41 would need 2 or 3 metres more depth below deck, & on the Iver Huitfeldt, I think that putting Mk41 into the same positions as the Mk56 might block access between the areas forward & aft of the current Mk41 launchers, & require some internal rearrangement.

 

[Meriv90]

It's very funny to me that a lot of Indonesians are insisting that this is for a separate requirement that the Chinese 052 offer is supposed to fill and not the same one.


Also, the FREMM offer supposedly includes the transfer of 2 U-212NFS submarines as well.

Are you sure 212NFS? We still dont have them, it could be the normal 212, but that would be a complete new deal like the scorpene one. Or probably are you referring to the Sauro?

Sauro-class submarine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Still in service but in dismission and that could be thrown in the deal.

 

[koxinga]

No, those very new, not yet commissioned 212NFS are the (reportedly) subject for sale.

After all, if brand new, uncommissioned PPAs can be sold, why not these subs?

 

[Meriv90]

PPAs were tested and in service, the 212NFS would have another price, and you would risk launch client risk like us.
If you wanna put the money in I mean more than gladly. The price tag should be around 500mln.
Increasing now the numbers during production is way better than a later order.

 

[Ananda]

Fincantieri offer on U212 is on going sales program. What's not clear whether it is new build, or the ones in the building process or the ones already in operational status. So it could be U212A or U212NFS.

MinDef and TNI-AL have newly build program and interim program. From my understanding Scorpene belong to newly build program, while the program that Fincantieri offer from my understanding belong to interim program. Interim program seems indicating to ready to use assets.

For that the rumours on the candidates are Reactivate DSME/Hanwha 209-1400 Batch 2 contract, Fincantieri U212 offer and Wuchang S26T. Those are the ones that lobbies on the program. Personally I suspect at this moment all three still has similar chances.

 

[Ananda]

Keris FB put screenshot from Havelsan Annual report. Basically Havelsan already secure CMS for KCR-60 and OPV-90 and FMP will be use system from Havelsan and Italian ELT. This further shown indication that FMP potentially use combine system and weapons from Turkiye and Italy (Aselsan and Leonardo).

 

[koxinga]

Keris FB put screenshot from Havelsan Annual report. Basically Havelsan already secure CMS for KCR-60 and OPV-90 and FMP will be use system from Havelsan and Italian ELT. This further shown indication that FMP potentially use combine system and weapons from Turkiye and Italy (Aselsan and Leonardo).

And KCR-70M. It seems unlikely that a turkish designed and build missile craft is going to come with non-turkish systems.

 

[Ananda]

TNI AL sedang kaji kebutuhan kapal induk untuk kepentingan OMSP

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana TNI Muhammad Ali mengatakan bahwa TNI AL sedang mengkaji kebutuhan kapal induk."Kelihatannya kami ...

m.antaranews.com

TNI AL Mulai Kajian Kebutuhan Kapal Induk untuk Operasi Selain Perang

TNI AL mengkaji kebutuhan kapal induk untuk membangun kekuatan ke depan, yang nantinya juga bisa digunakan untuk operasi militer selain perang.

nasional.kompas.com

as the obsession to have an aircraft carrier.

Well it is serious consideration beyond fanboys now. When they talk on using military asset for non combatant use in Indonesia, ussualy means they are serious in preparing the procurement program.

Before the studies talk on Helicopter Support for Amphibious operation, then add Drones Carrier concept (which I do suspect influence TNI-AL procurement on Anka and Akinci following TNI-AU). Now they add studies for non combatant thus civilian support, which means I suspect more on emergency disaster operation.

Note:
I don't support TNI-AL to have carrier, it is too fast on current TNI-AL development. It is too expensive for their current operational budget, and can be risk turn out just Thailand Harbour Queen Carrier (well they are in similar age anyway). In fact if they want carrier perhaps they (MinDef) approach Thailand to take their Harbour Queen and modified it. Still if they adamant taking Garibaldi hope they prepare on the supporting operational budget for that.

PAL already coming with their LHD concept, but I suspect it will only be finance after this term. Taking Garibaldi I suspect they will use it as traning ground for carrier concept. The price being negotiate around a fifth to a quarter billion USD. Munch more affordable then building your own LHD which can at least reach a billion USD budget.

Navy chief also talk that the 2 OPV-90 basically will be classified as Light Frigate. Thus similar then SIGMA 10514 as internal classification. Personally they should just classified them as Corvette similar to Bung Tomo and Diponegoro classes. Be done with it and classified Frigate for those in similar sizes of PPA and FMP.

He then talk on potential Frigates from other sources. So basically in my opinion firm mind set that domestic sources like PAL will be focus with FMP. While other Frigate mostly from other sources. Whether this means other domestic yard can be involve remain to be seen.

Rumours circulate that Fincantieri offer to build their FCX Corvette/Light Frigate with Indonesian yard partners like Noahtu. Thus not Frigate size, and in my opinion more make sense as those yards already shown capabilities for Corvette/Light Frigate sizes projects. Let PAL focus FMP for Frigates, and seems Babcock lobby on more license for next batches.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So from which i understand, the Chief of Staff of the Navy is telling here that Indonesia needs an aircraft carrier for "Operasi Militer Selain Perang (OMSP)", military operations other than war/peace time tasks. Are those Makassar Class of LPDs not good enough for such tasks? I think two or three of such ships (current 122-125 meter versions or new larger ones) is more practical and cost effective than one aircraft carrier. Those ships are large enough to launch UAVs like the ScanEagle or even larger UAVs.

The only case Indonesia needs a carrier battle group, is if for example TNI-AL need to rescue abducted seamen/sailors from Somalia while attack pirate camps with CH-4B or Anka UCAVs.

 

[Ananda]

The Al Maryah LPD that UAE order from PAL cost USD 400 Mio +. It is reach that price as UAE from my understanding ask more automated systems and better armaments-sensors then Makasar class. If they can get Garibaldi at price of USD 200-250 then it is basically costs slightly more then Makasar or Tarlac class LPD. Latest figures that LPD of Makasar class that also Peru build costs around USD 150-200 Mio.

Perhaps some in MinDef believe with the costs of an LPD they can get carrier that even 2nd hand but already got through modification by Italian a decade ago. Like I said, I don't agree with Carrier interest, but just try to understand their thinking.

I do believe that UAV carrier concept that really behind their thinking to get Garibaldi. The rest idea for disaster relief, inter island logistics and Helicopter Support for ASW and Amphibious operation more as plus CONOPS.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Who knows, maybe they want to get experience with a second hand aircraft carrier + UAVs, and later buy a new one + Rafale Ms and UAVs.

Still, i believe we have to give priority to sufficient escort-vessels like frigates and submarines and their equipment, before thinking about aircraft carriers.

 

[Ananda]

Keris FB put screen shoot from MinDef Information Chief that talk about their carrier study. He emphasize they're studying light SVTOL carrier or LHD, and will not venture to fixed wing carrier. The carrier concept is for Indonesian waters and not projection outside teritorial waters.

The last one I suspect also indicating the carrier concept in Indonesia always work within land base air coverage and not able to provide their own air coverage. It is limited to helicopters operation, but I also suspect on UAV operation as they are shown interest on Turkiye adaptation of their LHD on that role.

This is why I suspect they are really interest with Fincantieri offer for Garibaldi. Fincantieri from what I gather also rumoured offer their LPD design, but seems understand Indonesian interest in LHD and offer Garibaldi as cheaper interim solution. Perhaps MinDef studies still believe that their surface combatants projects will not be interupted by getting relatively cheaper Light Carrier on LPD price.

For me, the question is not the acquisition price of 2nd hand light carrier, but whether there will be enough escorts and other operational Budget for operating light carrier. However looking on the MinDef explation, seems they are not looking to build considerable carrier group around it. It is just existing escorts as it will be operate under confined Indonesian waters.

Whether that studies concept is realistic or not, well I'm just amateur enthusiasts. Not enough credibility to judge that.

 

[Ananda]

Forum Militer Indonesia | Spesifikasi lengkap Frigate Merah Putih (FMP) : | Facebook

Spesifikasi lengkap Frigate Merah Putih (FMP) : * 64 VLS Universal Midlas VLS - Roketsan (SSM, ASM Medium Range, ASM Long Range); * 1 x CIWS 35mm - Rheinmetall (Millenium); * 2 x Auxillary Gun...

www.facebook.com

Indonesian Military Enthusiasts FB put of a presentation from PAL on the FMP systems and weapons. Some rumours say it is not final yet as Leonardo and Havelsan/Aselsan have different agreement on working together. Other say that Aselsan/Havelsan and Leonardo/Electronica still working together as supplier for Indonesia FMP and will work with PAL on system integration.

Well if this is going to be final, then there're changes fron initial plan. The VLS increase from 48 to 64. Also from Sylver to Midlas. Missile Will be Roketsan from previous MBDA, but the Turkish -Italian System and Weapons combo still maintain.

This is also means (if this is final) TNI-AL will maintain 2 types of VLS (Midlas in FMP and Sylver in PPA/FREMM) and 2 types of Missile supplier Roketsan and MBDA. Still for Indonesian standard practice it is already standardise enough as it is only 2 suppliers. Unless after this they still toying with idea of Chinese missiles and system.

If VLS launch SSM wondering what it will be though. Don't see at this moment there're Atmaca or Exocet VL yet.

 

[Ananda]

The slide put the AESA Multi Function radar is Aselsan Mate Han. This name is not familiar even to Turkish Military Enthusiasts. However seems some of Turkiye enthusiasts in their forum do deeper dig in. They found out it is marketing name that Aselsan use for FMP project on their Cafrad Cenk 500N AESA fixed aray radar.

CENK 500-N, 600-N, 700-N SSR - ASELSAN

www.aselsan.com

Something that they are also prepare for their TF-2000 Destroyer. Somehow this have beat previous rendering of FMP that use Leonardo Kronos (similar with what been use in PPA). Personally I prefer they are using Kronos for similarities with PPA, but then what do I know.

 

[x100 XKR]

Turkey moved so fast (at least on paper) with all their indigenous systems, but how credible are all these new systems? What's the industry news/chatter on them, compared to their contemporaries? Anyone hear anything?

Their UAV (Bayraktar) did get some notoriety at the beginning of the Russo-Ukr conflict, but seems like the chatter have largely died down, or at least the novelty of it has disappeared. Outside of it, they do have a lot - Gokdeniz, HISAR, Atmaca, now the phased array radar etc ..... None of those are cheap R&D investments. Seems amazing on what they can do in such a short time.

South Korean have done almost the same, with at least arguably flashier export success - big export to Poland helps, K9 Thunder cornering the SPH market etc. Seems like Turkiye wants to be on the same path, but even with greater independence and self sufficiency ....

 

[Ananda]

Aselsan do have quite long effort on developing Radars, Sensors and Defense Electronics. Still Sultan Erdo administration drive for MIC give them boosts since 2000. However whether their Sensors already in par with others in Euro Zone whether Thales, Leonardo or Hensoldt, that's open question.

I suspect Aselsan, Havelsan and Roketsan are closing in toward older West Europe players, and already in par or exceed the East European players. Simply because the amount of RnD investment Turkiye pouring in. Off course of you talk with Euro Salesmen like Twitter guy, and he will talk endless ranting to put picture of Turkiye stuff as unreliable.

So with FMP so far shown combo systems of Turkiye and Italian, perhaps it is middle ground that MinDef try to achieve. Costs and Reliability, always the issue when you choose your systems.

 

[Ananda]

Prabowo Welcomes Erdoğan at Jakarta Airport

This year marks the 75th anniversary of diplomatic relations between Indonesia and Turkey.

jakartaglobe.id

Sultan Erdo right now in Jakarta, and one of agenda he is going to rap up with Prabowo is Defence and MIC Co-op. Makes me wonder that those enthusiasts that leak FMP presentation slide timing it with the meeting. Well no wonder Euro Salesman like Twitter guy increasingly geting bitter close to looser attitude in his channel.

Personaly I prefer more Thales and Leonardo stuff, but if costs benefits also make them source Aselsan then why not. The Frenchie salesman getting bitter is understandable as it is reducing his bonus cut. However Frenchie just like Italian stuff do get part of deals. I doubt that they will only use Turkiye stuff, matter of financing and not relying on one supplier, always in Indonesian defence procurement rules.

 

[x100 XKR]

Aselsan do have quite long effort on developing Radars, Sensors and Defense Electronics. Still Sultan Erdo administration drive for MIC give them boosts since 2000. However whether their Sensors already in par with others in Euro Zone whether Thales, Leonardo or Hensoldt, that's open question.

I suspect Aselsan, Havelsan and Roketsan are closing in toward older West Europe players, and already in par or exceed the East European players. Simply because the amount of RnD investment Turkiye pouring in. Off course of you talk with Euro Salesmen like Twitter guy, and he will talk endless ranting to put picture of Turkiye stuff as unreliable.

So with FMP so far shown combo systems of Turkiye and Italian, perhaps it is middle ground that MinDef try to achieve. Costs and Reliability, always the issue when you choose your systems.

Amidst all that ... I did not even notice the marker of 'Fitted For But Not With'. So after all is said and done, the Navy will have 2 giant OPV with gun only armaments. Wonderful.