Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Japan unveils first images of new Type 12 anti-ship missile tests - Naval News

My apologies for missile name confusion. I was referring to the upgrade to the Type 12 detailed in the above article. It is apparently in development, but at the stage of testing for the ground launched variant. One assumes this will go into production in the next few years for the army. It is quite a big change from the current Type 12/17 in operation. It's a longer term prospect for the Naval version, maybe at the turn of the decade.

The earlier question from Reptilia (my understanding at least) was around would we take this missile if it came with the upgraded Mogami, given the transaction is all around the 2030s when this upgrade type12/17 missile is likely to be the Japanese Naval standard.

I take your points on the NSM competitors at the time of evaluation. Probably slim pickings in that timeframe.

If we do however forward project to say 2030, when our own production line becomes fully active, the NSM would likely be stacking up against evolved versions of ship launched LRASM and the above Japanese Type 12, not to mention whatever the likes of China is fielding by that time. Its range does start to stand out in that context. Do we face an obsolete/outgunned missile given the advancements with other types of missiles. Are we potentially sinking an obscene amount of money into a system that may not be competitive when our factory comes on line.

I take the point that LRASM (in any form) would be too heavy for an ANZAC platform, however if we are talking 5,000 and 10,000 tonne future frigates, then I would have thought this becomes more viable to manage.

While LRASM has only been tested from a Mk41 VLS, any missile that works with this launcher should be compatible with adaptable deck launchers. So it could be a replacement for the NSM topside rather than canibalise the mk41. Or it could be a Tomahawk alternative launched from a LOCSV.

I get that the NSM is perhaps our best option now, but will it still be so in five years time.
If we are talking about five years (2029/2030) from now, then yes, I would expect that NSM and derivatives would likely be the best options for the RAN. TBH I do not think more options would really start becoming available until perhaps are early as 2032 with 2034 being more likely IMO. That is around the time that the Hunter-class FFG's should start to enter service, as well as when whatever gets selected for the overseas build for the SEA 3000 GPF should likely not only be completed including sea trials, but also the training and support activities required to actually operate and keep a new design with different kit in service.

Regarding the RAN adopting LRASM... I think there is potential for this to occur, but it would need to be once the RAN is closer to getting more Mk 41 VLS (that would not have serious cell count and topweight issues) into RAN service. Unless/until someone like the USN begins to develop a multi-missile, angled launcher like the Mk 141, to fire LRASM, I do not think smaller navies would both trying to develop this for just themselves. Also give the per missile weight for LRASM, I do not think a quad-launcher is really feasible, since the individual missiles are themselves twice the mass of Harpoon.

Now a further thought occurred to me on potential RAN AShM/LACM options. Currently it appears the RAN also fields the UGM-84C the Sub Harpoon Block 1B, aboard the Collins-class SSG. If these missiles could be remanufactured to add some of the features available from the RAN's current RGM-84 Harpoon Block II, then that could introduce a sub-launched land attack/strike capability to the RAN, which currently does not exist. Alternatively, the RAN could see about replacing the Sub Harpoons with the NSM-SL which would provide RAN subs with both a strike capability and more modern/advanced AShM. I do not consider it likely that sub-launched versions of Tomahawk, which would be UGM-109's, would ever get fielded from the Collins-class subs for several reasons. If memory serves, when the RAN fitted a version of the AN-BGY 1 from the Viriginia-class SSN to the Collins-class SSG, elements needed to carry/launch Tomahawk missiles from the subs were not included. Further, IIRC Tomahawk was excluded because some of what was needed (in terms of the CMS and/or weapons stations) to deploy Tomahawks could not be fitted within the spaces available within the sub. These modifications would also be atop the need for Australia to get approved to purchase sub-launched versions of Tomahawk, and so on.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
True for LUSV but if LOCSV enters RAN service it is proposed to be a crewed platform (presumably those crew members will contribute navigation, maintenance and security functions and, perhaps, ensure a human in the loop for firing). It will be an auxiliary magazine operating under the protection of a Hobart or Hunter rather than a forward launch platform (as the ADF would not operate unprotected crewed platforms in . Presumably the surface fleet analysis rejected batches of Hunters with more VLS as an option (just as the Defence Review rejected B-21 - albeit publicly in that case) but that was the other way to go.
I’m pretty sure anything to do with additional frigates is more a financial rejection than a needs rejection.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
TBH I would expect (and plan on) any Chinese dual-use facility to be defended and have some ability to rapidly self-repair and resume ops in situations where hostilities have broken out. Therefore, unless Australia was planning (or perhaps expecting) to launch a surprise strike either just prior to or immediately after the start of hostilities, I would operate under the assumption that facilities China built to utilize in a conflict would be defended to some degree.

Given the results of BDA following US Tomahawk strikes in Syria in 2017, whilst the 59 missile strike was successful to a degree, the Shayrat Air Base in Syria was apparently able to resume operations again after several hours. If one keeps in mind defensive tactics like dispersal of assets and the establishment of backup systems where possible, this makes sense. Just by dispersing targets, that can reduce the effectiveness of a small strike package, because there could be more targets than inbound ordnance.

To put it another way, consider what sort of effort would be required to strike an ADF base what steps the ADF can and does take to protect Australia bases and facilities. Keep in mind though that China has orders of magnitude more personnel and kit which can be called upon, and that at least some of the facilities constructed in the SCS appear to have defensive features built to defend vs. cruise missile strikes. It might also be worthwhile to look through this site which has info on Chinese outposts in the SCS.
There is a different Paradym striking our northern air or naval bases compared to Chinese bases. Our bases are 2000+ km from industrial and manufacturing centres complicating resupply for building and repair work and adding significant cost to works at those locations.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure I agree with this.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...MJuzXwIX8HWfwJtJLYEwrbjM_895dgF758Ot0ZJg&s=10

Take a look at this map. It shows China’s main oil and gas pipelines.

I agree that any significant military bases, ports, urban areas, industrial and logistics hubs are likely to be well defended. But covering the full length of this network? That’s not possible. Hitting one of these pipelines in multiple places with a 1000lb warhead every couple of weeks is likely to put a very significant dent in China’s energy supplies, especially when combined with a blockade of China bound tankers through the Malacca and Sunda straits (assuming we can do this with SSKs / SSNs or other assets). This would cause the Chinese very big headaches indeed.

I fully agree that a Tomahawk strike on Hainan Island or similar in sufficient mass to make a noticeable impact doesn’t sound like a good use of limited resources to me.
Mate have a look at what Ukraine has done in Russia which has way less infrastructure than China and still the oil and gas keeps flowing. It might restrain to a small degree but China is now linking gas and oil over land from Russia through Mongolia and short of an ICBM I don’t know of any weapons system that has the range to effect that.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Following on from the earlier discussion about the load-out of AWD’s and all the things we might want to fire from them, I am wondering if RAN thinking on that matter might be starting to change on that as well? I have certainly been thinking about it for a while, and clearly RAN has been, introducing 3 new missile types in 2024 alone.

We have for a long time been all in on ESSM. It made sense. 75% of our surface fleet could only really operate one air defence missile without unacceptable compromise in other areas (such as perhaps the loss of the 127mm gun).

The main air launched threat was also cruise missile attacks and unarguably they remain one of the main threats today. ESSM has long demonstrated it’s excellent performance against such threats. Block II not being entirely tied to ship-borne radar makes it no doubt even better against such threats. However it isn’t the only missile RAN uses which can defend against them, SM-2 is also excellent in that role.

But cruise missile attacks are only one threat modern forces including navies are facing. As we see in Ukraine (and in return in Russia) and in the Red Sea, ballistic missile attacks and drone attacks are making up at least as much of the threat, if not more. Further to this ”drone” attacks are not restricted to air-launched drones, but USV drone attacks are occurring more frequently and with increasing levels of capability as well.

One of the issues we have seen, is that big, powerful radar systems designed for extended range air defence against fast moving air and missile threats, have not fared well against low, slow drone attacks. In many cases they have been an absolute liability. Such is exactly the type of capability you need to employ ESSM and is certainly what we employ with CEA radars or SPY-1D radars used to employ ESSM (and yes, other weapons).

Add to which ESSM is a very solid mid-range missile, but it has problems against high-end ballistic missile threats as well as being far too much missile for most drone threats. It also (crucially) requires VLS launch cells…

RAN has a similar albeit lesser problem with Phalanx. They have been all in on Phalanx since the 80’s and whilst it has been enhanced with a FLIR sensor and other upgrades, it has the same problem of being “too much” for drones (though it can certainly defeat them) and not being enough for any ballistic threat and arguably not enough for modern cruise missiles either. Plus it is facing increased competition from medium calibre gun systems typically carried on-board modern ships, which out-range it and have useful anti-drone and anti-surface effects as well.

Recently we have seen RAN request information on 127mm counter-drone ammunition, indicating they are well aware of that threat. I have little doubt we will see additional kinetic and non-kinetic responses to drone threats from RAN. We have also seen RAN respond to ballistic threats with the acquisition of SM-2 Block IIIC and SM-6, as well as (if you choose to believe Mr Conroy’s one time words) SM-3.

In actual recent combat we have seen the USN overwhelmingly employ SM-2 (and SM-3) to address both ballistic threats and cruise missile threats fired by Houthi and Iranian forces, despite many of those threats being well within the ‘wheelhouse’ of ESSM and despite the increased cost and more limited magazine depth that SM-2 imposes compared to ESSM. On the other hand we also haven’t seen any substantial ESSM use on drone threats they have similarly had to counter, preferring non-kinetic means, guns and lighter missiles such as RIM-116 RAM Blk 2. The Germans I believe have also employed RIM-116 RAM operationally in the Red Sea against drones (but happy to be corrected on that point).

So musing on these issues and coming back to the AWD load-out situation, makes me wonder if we might not see RAN carry fewer ESSM missiles in it’s precious few VLS cells moving forward and perhaps look to other missile solutions for lower end drone and “leaker” self-defence roles and more SM-2 / SM-6 for the higher threats, as well as the threats that once ESSM was intended for, just as the USN is doing?

In addition to which, we have our Canberra Class LHD’s which are still listed as intended to carry Phalanx (per below link) yet the RAN clearly having no intention whatsoever of increasing it’s absolutely glacial pace in integrating these aboard the ships, having had them commissioned for some 10 years now and still no sign of Phalanx…

Given the current operational imperative to counter drones and ballistic threats (and in the near future hypersonic ones) as well as other defensive systems such as directed energy systems becoming more prominent, I am wondering whether we will start to see the decline of RAN interest in ESSM and Phalanx and a move towards more contemporary defence systems?

I have no opinion either way, but it seems to me a combination of RAM Block II (or similar) and more SM-2 / SM-6 would offer numerous advantages over the more ESSM and less SM-2 based load-outs we currently employ, especially as we move forward into an era where our vessels are no longer restricted to one principle air self-defence weapon type? Additionally if a case existed for employing RIM-116 RAM Blk2 within RAN surface’s combatants, might not the case be a similar situation for the LHD’s and perhaps RAN’s other major surface craft?

I am wondering accordingly if the RAM Blk 2 fired from the Mk.49 GMLS in 21 round launch configuration or in SeaRAM 11x round configuration, might not become the modern “CIWS” for RAN? This system fits wherever Phalanx fits and offers more engagements per loadout than Phalanx does whilst also operating over a greater engagement envelope. The weapon also has multiple guidance modes including active radar and infra-red homing meaning it is likely much better at engaging small drone targets than a radar-guided only ESSM and each RIM-116 is less than half the cost of an ESSM equivalent. Additionally with a 21 round launcher it offers self-defence firepower (equivalent to 5x VLS cells fitted with ESSM) and can be reloaded between engagements, unlike ESSM. The intent with RIM-116 is that it would be for leaker and drone threats, while freeing up cells for SM-2 / SM-6 which will be the primary defensive missiles anyway, if we follow the USN pattern. The LHD’s would be better protected with RAM Blk 2 than they are today and better protected than they would even if they were fitted with Phalanx. SeaRAM would of course leverage our existing investment in Phalanx and require little to no integration on the ships, it was being placed upon.

Finally the 2024 IIP document stated that specified RAN vessels would receive ‘upgraded phalanx self defence system to improve anti-ship missile defence capabilities and provide the ability to engage targets including slow flying aircraft, uncrewed aerial vehicles and surface vessels’.

Now this could mean the Phalanx Block I B2 upgrade that has been in existence for years already (and should be already finished according to the project timeline below) or it could refer to some upgrade beyond Block I B2, of which SeaRAM is the only publicly acknowledged one I can find, at present...

Why can’t a ship like the Canberra’s have both RIM and Phalanx?
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Why can’t a ship like the Canberra’s have both RIM and Phalanx?
It would be good to see both being considered but at present I would be pleased just to see existing Phalanx mounts actually fitted! I am not aware of any explanation as to why there has been no apparent progress on the fitting of "up to 3" Phalanx mounts on each LHD that was supposed to happen last decade. One has been fitted to Choules but nothing has been mentioned in the public domain re Canberra and Adelaide. I get the impression that the RAN does not see any urgency in providing the LHDs with even a basic hard kill air defence system for these ships. At least Nulka has now been fitted, giving a soft kill capability. Perhaps there is an expectation that embarked army units will provide AD in an emergency as was the case with Kanimbla and Manoora in the past. Mind you even those ships each carried a Phalanx CIWS!
Tas
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
It would be good to see both being considered but at present I would be pleased just to see existing Phalanx mounts actually fitted! I am not aware of any explanation as to why there has been no apparent progress on the fitting of "up to 3" Phalanx mounts on each LHD that was supposed to happen last decade. One has been fitted to Choules but nothing has been mentioned in the public domain re Canberra and Adelaide. I get the impression that the RAN does not see any urgency in providing the LHDs with even a basic hard kill air defence system for these ships. At least Nulka has now been fitted, giving a soft kill capability. Perhaps there is an expectation that embarked army units will provide AD in an emergency as was the case with Kanimbla and Manoora in the past. Mind you even those ships each carried a Phalanx CIWS!
Tas
I'm thinking that an LHD is always going to have a frigate escort and rarely operating in heavily contested areas.

CIWS of any type is always going to be a hail mary defence.

So the strategy would be less about the LHD defending itself, more making sure we have good quality escorts available to defend it.
 

Richo99

Active Member
I'm thinking that an LHD is always going to have a frigate escort and rarely operating in heavily contested areas.
I think that's a very optimistic view of the potential vulnerability of these very big, fat, slow ships. Yes it's hail Mary, but given the minimal cost of fitting a few phalanx, it's surely worth it. All similar ships from the US, UK, SK and japan, amongst others, have at least one CIWS of some form. I just dont see how our ships and operations are so different as to negate the need for some hard kill option.
But maybe all those navies are just worry warts....
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Mate have a look at what Ukraine has done in Russia which has way less infrastructure than China and still the oil and gas keeps flowing. It might restrain to a small degree but China is now linking gas and oil over land from Russia through Mongolia and short of an ICBM I don’t know of any weapons system that has the range to effect that.
The Americans and others have been leaning hard on them not to disrupt oil and gas exports. For example:

Putin bombards Ukraine but US tells Kyiv to stop targeting Russian oil
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
It would be good to see both being considered but at present I would be pleased just to see existing Phalanx mounts actually fitted! I am not aware of any explanation as to why there has been no apparent progress on the fitting of "up to 3" Phalanx mounts on each LHD that was supposed to happen last decade. One has been fitted to Choules but nothing has been mentioned in the public domain re Canberra and Adelaide. I get the impression that the RAN does not see any urgency in providing the LHDs with even a basic hard kill air defence system for these ships. At least Nulka has now been fitted, giving a soft kill capability. Perhaps there is an expectation that embarked army units will provide AD in an emergency as was the case with Kanimbla and Manoora in the past. Mind you even those ships each carried a Phalanx CIWS!
Tas
What are the USN carriers and LHA/Ds fitted with? It's certainly not just Nulka. They're warships and fitted out accordingly. Someone in Canberra is dragging their heels on this. If the balloon goes up and we end up in a hot war these systems can't be fitted overnight.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I think that's a very optimistic view of the potential vulnerability of these very big, fat, slow ships. Yes it's hail Mary, but given the minimal cost of fitting a few phalanx, it's surely worth it. All similar ships from the US, UK, SK and japan, amongst others, have at least one CIWS of some form. I just dont see how our ships and operations are so different as to negate the need for some hard kill option.
But maybe all those navies are just worry warts....
You paint a ship grey because you don’t want it to be seen.
You don’t want it to be seen because you are placing it into harms way.
Navy acknowledges this and has added Nixie , Nulka and four 25 mm Bushmasters.

What Navy have not acknowledged is what other Navy’s do with comparable ships and that is to add additional kinetic defence systems.
A true CIWS ( not a very limited 25 mm pop gun)

Be it a gun or missile, air and surface defence should exist on every RAN vessel over 3000t out to at least 10 Km regardless of its role.

In coming missiles don’t have feelings!
They just have targets

Cheers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
If anything given the recent developments in the Gulf with drones and missiles. You would think that at the very least, Phalanx would be a priority fit.

There are islamists in the SEA/Asia pacific region, indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines. Even with an escort, these type of threats are notorious for slipping through for a variety of very good reasons even if escorted by capable and well armed escorts. For these type of threats, Phalanx is a very viable choice. Even if the escorts do their job, with the sheer number of these drones, having another set of armed and ready to go, or from a different vector with a clear and safe shot, is particularly useful if they are attacking in swarms or in number.

Its not even just a China-war thing.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
If anything given the recent developments in the Gulf with drones and missiles. You would think that at the very least, Phalanx would be a priority fit.

There are islamists in the SEA/Asia pacific region, indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines. Even with an escort, these type of threats are notorious for slipping through for a variety of very good reasons even if escorted by capable and well armed escorts. For these type of threats, Phalanx is a very viable choice. Even if the escorts do their job, with the sheer number of these drones, having another set of armed and ready to go, or from a different vector with a clear and safe shot, is particularly useful if they are attacking in swarms or in number.

Its not even just a China-war thing.
Too much fixation on the China-war thing

That scenario may or not play out but most likely other other maritime challenges will need to be tackled. Small, medium and big.

Cheers S
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Too much fixation on the China-war thing

That scenario may or not play out but most likely other other maritime challenges will need to be tackled. Small, medium and big.

Cheers S
It really depends on whether or not things happen with China. I do not dismiss it as a possibility, but TBH I feel that if it were to happen, it would be before any of the changes started following the recent defence and naval reviews would really start, never mind take effect.

Of course the flip side is also quite possible in that China's area of interest and strategic outlook changes, either due to an imploding economy, Russia disintegrating, or something else entirely. That is one of the reasons why I really do not like 'focused force' concepts because they tend to be appropriate only for their focus (which might not even be accurate for the actual threat) which means if something else happens, or an issue arises in a different area, then the personnel, training and kit might be inadequate, inappropriate, or both.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm thinking that an LHD is always going to have a frigate escort and rarely operating in heavily contested areas.

CIWS of any type is always going to be a hail mary defence.

So the strategy would be less about the LHD defending itself, more making sure we have good quality escorts available to defend it.
RAN wasn’t, hence the plan to fit Phalanx originally to the LHD’s and the plan as still listed in the Phalanx upgrade project...

In those heavily contested areas, I imagine those escorts will be extremely heavily tasked, if not under regular direct attack.

Were they planning to escort the LHD’s but not the Supply Class or Choules? Both of which gained Phalanx, anti-surface guns and Nulka.

It doesn’t appear to make a vast amount of sense to this outsider…
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
Too much fixation on the China-war thing

That scenario may or not play out but most likely other other maritime challenges will need to be tackled. Small, medium and big.

Cheers S
I agree the China war is very unlikely, and, as you say, the actual operations that the RAN will conduct will be very different but the strategic posture for the RAN is (as a small part of a contribution to a coalition) deterrence / containment (hopefully making war less likely). Its choices involve creating the perception that Australia might intervene in PLA operations against Taiwan. Thus China is not a threat to Australia, China is a threat to Taiwan and, believe it or not, Australia is a threat to China (specifically it seeks to prevent or delay China from achieving its paramount strategic goal - reunification from their point of view). The RAN is acquiring SSNs (and Australia is basing foreign SSNs and strategic strike assets) at breakneck speed not to sink Chinese invasion fleets headed for Cooktown or Kununurra but to credibly intervene in PLA operations in the South and East China seas.

How does that relate to the matter under discussion? I suspect the RAN has no intention of committing LHDs anywhere near highly contested environments until it has sorted out fleet air defence (including against ballistic threats) and strategic strike on the DDGs. I don’t think it has any intention of sending a loaded LHD anywhere in wartime without a DDG escort (and it only has three DDGs which are being upgraded for ballistic missile defence and now have a strategic strike mission).

Why put Phalanx on Supply Class and Choules now? Assuming the likely threats are opportunistic cruise missile shots from submarines and shore batteries then they may be planning to operate those vessels with just an ANZAC escort.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I agree the China war is very unlikely, and, as you say, the actual operations that the RAN will conduct will be very different but the strategic posture for the RAN is (as a small part of a contribution to a coalition) deterrence / containment (hopefully making war less likely). Its choices involve creating the perception that Australia might intervene in PLA operations against Taiwan. Thus China is not a threat to Australia, China is a threat to Taiwan and, believe it or not, Australia is a threat to China (specifically it seeks to prevent or delay China from achieving its paramount strategic goal - reunification from their point of view). The RAN is acquiring SSNs (and Australia is basing foreign SSNs and strategic strike assets) at breakneck speed not to sink Chinese invasion fleets headed for Cooktown or Kununurra but to credibly intervene in PLA operations in the South and East China seas.

How does that relate to the matter under discussion? I suspect the RAN has no intention of committing LHDs anywhere near highly contested environments until it has sorted out fleet air defence (including against ballistic threats) and strategic strike on the DDGs. I don’t think it has any intention of sending a loaded LHD anywhere in wartime without a DDG escort (and it only has three DDGs which are being upgraded for ballistic missile defence and now have a strategic strike mission).

Why put Phalanx on Supply Class and Choules now? Assuming the likely threats are opportunistic cruise missile shots from submarines and shore batteries then they may be planning to operate those vessels with just an ANZAC escort.
Insurance

You arm your vessels to up the odds they will survive.
Large amphibious and supply ships need their own sovereign inner defence capability just like the escorts.
Look at any conflict over the last century that goes for some years

All platforms evolve very quickly in a war environment.
Peace time theories get chucked out the door quick smart when conflict starts in earnest.

Supply ships and LHDs will be called upon to take risk!
At times with fog of conflict they will be caught out in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It shouldn’t happen to any vessel but conflict is just that, conflict.
It unfortunately has attrition.

let’s up the defence insurance of survival while we can

To flip the question
Do you or anyone really believe that if a serious conflict was just around the corner and defence is given that wartime blank cheque they would not go out shopping

There would be stuff bolted, zip tired and gaffer taped sticking stuff on ships like crazy.

Those LHDs would get phalanx very quickly

Cheers S
 

protoplasm

Active Member
To flip the question
Do you or anyone really believe that if a serious conflict was just around the corner and defence is given that wartime blank cheque they would not go out shopping

There would be stuff bolted, zip tired and gaffer taped sticking stuff on ships like crazy.

Those LHDs would get phalanx very quickly

Cheers S
Photos of the pacific escort ships from WW2 have guns mounted on every square inch of deck space available. The veritable wall of lead was the solution to incoming threats.

My own child is considering a possible RAN career, and I’d want their vessel to have every possible chance of defending itself against the range of possible threats that could be coming. Phalanx is not that expensive, just mount them wherever you can and give the ships some fighting chance against incomers.
 

BPFP

Member
Insurance

Supply ships and LHDs will be called upon to take risk!
At times with fog of conflict they will be caught out in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It shouldn’t happen to any vessel but conflict is just that, conflict.
It unfortunately has attrition.
Exactly this. In the fog of war, with competing priorities and given the limited number of escorts operated by the RAN (and that's before attrition), the chances of one of these major platforms being caught alone seems somewhat likely.

One of the LHDs, or Choules for that matter, being taken out with crew plus on an onboard army contingent (say several hundred) would be devastating for the nation and potentially even influence the country's will to fight. Its staggering that these assets have been left unprotectef by successive governments.

At the minimum, CEAFAR, 1xMk41 with ESSM plus point defence cannons.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Insurance

You arm your vessels to up the odds they will survive.
Large amphibious and supply ships need their own sovereign inner defence capability just like the escorts.
Look at any conflict over the last century that goes for some years

All platforms evolve very quickly in a war environment.
Peace time theories get chucked out the door quick smart when conflict starts in earnest.

Supply ships and LHDs will be called upon to take risk!
At times with fog of conflict they will be caught out in the wrong place at the wrong time.
It shouldn’t happen to any vessel but conflict is just that, conflict.
It unfortunately has attrition.

let’s up the defence insurance of survival while we can

To flip the question
Do you or anyone really believe that if a serious conflict was just around the corner and defence is given that wartime blank cheque they would not go out shopping

There would be stuff bolted, zip tired and gaffer taped sticking stuff on ships like crazy.

Those LHDs would get phalanx very quickly

Cheers S
Mate, atm, I reckon they would pull some trick like they have in the past......whack a couple of diggers with an RBS 70, maybe use a NASSAMs on the deck of a Phat ship, never mind it will take away an asset from another area.
 
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