Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Maybe they will drag out Arunta's decommissioning if they do the NSM upgrade. Anzac is a Christmas Tree being stripped for parts. A decision on the GPF is taking WWAAYY too long. I feel it's all political. If the balloon goes up we are all screwed. When was the last time a federal politician had the security of the nation at heart?
Not Arunta but the others look like they will be given 30 years.
At 28 years, Warramunga was to be decommissioned in 2029 but now it will be after the 1st GPF enters service in 2030, so 2030/2031.
If the rest follows…
Stuart 31/32 > GPF 2
Parramatta 32/33 > GPF 3
Ballarat 33/34 > Hunter 1
Toowoomba 34/35 > GPF 4
Perth 35/36 > Hunter 2

With each frigate exiting service, 1 is likely to enter. MFUs should never drop below 8-9 over the next decade.
New frigates obviously far more capable than the Anzacs.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just a couple of things about the Mogami CIC. It does look good. My view is that combat operators and warfare officers will like it (on the asumption that it is the final selection). It is however not that revolutionary or different to more traditional CICs.
That CIC looks amazing.

Too late to change the Hunters??
The mogamis are designed around their mission and requirements. Cutting and pasting that CIC into a Hobart or a Hunter or a LHD doesn't work, not without significant reworking.

On a small ship with lean crewing, it makes sense to have many people able to access many things easily. That being said, for high intensity stuff, this is a trade off, You have few people looking at many screens, sensors etc, not many people manning a single console. For a ship like the Mogami, which is probably doing one thing at a time, and operating within broader more capable command capability bubbles, this is fine. Most of the time, its sailing, launching or retrieving drones, doing basic ASW work etc. But there are trade offs, everything is a trade off. No free lunches. In complex high threat high tempo operations, this kind of layout would suffer.

The Hobarts and the Hunters are more command capable and are expected to operate in higher threat environments and therefore will use more crew. But can do more things at higher intensities for longer. They would be perfect compliments to this type of ship.

The whole lean crew thing has been a big development area over the last 20 years with some significant failures. What we seem to be coming around to is a ship with around 100-120 in a 5000-6000t frigate, as a bit of a general sweet spot. There are now several ships of this type being built by several different navies, to several different designs. The italian patrol frigates, the Constellation class, Type 31 and mogami, are all very different ships, but there are some themes to connect them.

These navies aren't abandoning big ships however. All of them operate larger, more crew intensive more capable surface combatant ships.

At 28 years, Warramunga was to be decommissioned in 2029 but now it will be after the 1st GPF enters service in 2030, so 2030/2031.
The delivery of the first GPF is critical. We will have to see what and when is actually delivered, but there may be interest in some sort of early delivery.

Maybe they will drag out Arunta's decommissioning if they do the NSM upgrade. Anzac is a Christmas Tree being stripped for parts. A decision on the GPF is taking WWAAYY too long. I feel it's all political. If the balloon goes up we are all screwed. When was the last time a federal politician had the security of the nation at heart?
While it certainly feels that way. The Japanese are currently spamming out Mogamis in 18 month cycles. Their process is going flat out if we are a part of it or not. By 2030 they may have another 10 FFM30 ships in the water. We don't want to rush into decisions, but also we have taken a very long time to select platforms that died before competition or were cut down or bailed on very quickly.

The period 2027-2030 is hyper critical. It is expected either there will be a high intensity peer conflict between China/USA or at least some sort of massive escalation, but it also couples with other issues like economic, demographic etc.

Australia has been pretty active. We have upgraded the hobarts and fired NSM/SM6/Tomahawk. Anzacs get their stuff. We have a full set of F-35As, we have the Superhornets. We are ok. But we also aren't in great places with the Anzac fleet, new ship build deliveries, subs etc. But we are trying frantically. I don't think we are screwed. But we could be in a much better position. Being in a weaker position ourselves, means we have little credibility to pressure allies to pick up their game, when our game has problems.

Ultimately we will have to use what we have.

If war does break out, my fear is that the US will not be able to supply us with a SSN. That is a completely reasonable and possible outcome, it may even be likely. If war does break out we may not be getting any Mogami/A200 ships from overseas.


Stop promoting and listening to unqualified, inexperienced, non technical, often unintelligent, while sidelining technical experts and in particular, technical generalists.
We really need more technical people on the political side of things. Not just about platform choices but about processes. The political class believes they can overcome engineering and physics with legislation and money. It can't, not on big things.

We aren't spinning up to speed on our sovereign capability fast enough. It is ten times cheaper and 100 times easier to speed up that process now than in 2 years . We still have access to global markets, money, people funding, and have time to use those things. Need a new CNC, we can buy that and get it delivered. We want 50 of them? We can do that. We want to triple the 155 and 127 shell production? Do that now. Not in 5 years time.

We aren't taking political lessons from Ukraine. We aren't even stockpiling strategic raw materials and semi completed goods, China has been doing this for nearly 10 years. Copper wire, pipe, plate, advanced alloys, chemical precursors etc. While we have a lot of raw stuff, and we even process some of it, we don't have much in the way of strategic stockpiles, because normally it just gets shipped overseas.

We have problems, it's not just ships, ships are another symptom of the problem. Its not an Australian manufacturing problem it's an Australian Political problem. I think we need more politicians openly and actively touring Ukraine and seeing the issues they are coming up with face to face. I would support every single politician at the state and federal level to tour Ukraine in the next 12 months. No other tours in europe, Fly into Poland, bus to Ukraine, 1 week tour, fly back. Everything is framed as this is where we will be in 3 years, but worse, and it will be a global problem, how can we prepare better. Processes and views need to change.

This idea that we can basically continue with no major effort on ourselves, into WW3, and get by with just some improved munitions is disturbing. The munitions help, but doesn't address all the other issues. We are still believing that we will never have to fire any of these weapons in anger, and they they just need to exist in small numbers as deterrent value only.

But we saw basically the same thing in both WW1 and WW2 and during the Cold war. Clearly predictable events, poor/ineffective preparation.

Even if we got 3 mogami by 2029 its not going to solve our issues. Its an improvement, but we need to be doing many more things. IMO
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Maybe they will drag out Arunta's decommissioning if they do the NSM upgrade. Anzac is a Christmas Tree being stripped for parts. A decision on the GPF is taking WWAAYY too long. I feel it's all political. If the balloon goes up we are all screwed. When was the last time a federal politician had the security of the nation at heart?
TBH (and I rather doubt people who have been paying attention to my thoughts are surprised by this) I do not think the SEA 3000 decision is taking, "way too long..." but I tend to rather think that the timeframes suggested were overly optimistic.

Australia needs to select a vessel that meets several disparate requirements.

Whatever ends up getting the nod needs to be something which can actually prove useful in RAN service. This means the selected vessel's fitout needs to be at least 'acceptable' in terms of not just the weapons and sensors/CMS, but also transit ranges and speeds, as well as mission endurance and sea-days without replenishment.

Also, whatever gets selected needs to be available from an overseas yard within a fairly tight timeframe which I suspect will (or perhaps already has) become tighter still once one takes into account the time required to complete the various sea trials, as well as getting RAN personnel familiar enough with any new to the RAN/different kit to be competent to operate and maintain the new systems.

Lastly, whatever gets selected needs to also be something which Australia can contract to have domestic build runs done, at a new and yet to be established facility. Among other issues, this means that the design selection and especially contract negotiations needs to establish Australia's right and ability to conduct production runs, hopefully without Australia having to pay staggering amounts.

A significant issue in either of the first to parts would bring SEA 3000 to dead stop. An issue with carrying out the third part would leave short-changed in number of vessels in service, and likely with a production gap.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
On the bright side development of uncrewed vessels seems to be progressing nicely. One thing we desperately need with our shrinking surface fleet are force multipliers.

 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
On the bright side development of uncrewed vessels seems to be progressing nicely. One thing we desperately need with our shrinking surface fleet are force multipliers.

Good to see progress. The potential proliferation of similar uncrewed undersea vessels in potential adversary forces probably also helps to explain the concentration of the RAN on undersea warfare.

an example is shown here (not necessarily mature according to the link)
DSA 2024: New Torpedo-Launching UUV from China - Naval News
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
2024/25 through to 2033/34 = $5.2-7.2 billion planned investment in subsea warfare and uncrewed maritime systems.
Same period just $400-500 million on large optionally crewed surface vessels.
 

Attachments

SammyC

Well-Known Member
2024/25 through to 2033/34 = $5.2-7.2 billion planned investment in subsea warfare and uncrewed maritime systems.
Same period just $400-500 million on large optionally crewed surface vessels.
With that kind of money we should have a very good underwater drone fleet by 2034 with multiple evolved Orcas, Bluebottles and Speartooths. Hopefully including some that are weapons carrying rather than just surveilance. We may need them as a crewed submarine stopgap.

I should note, I think that money also includes mine and torpedo procurement as well as drones.

Looking at the ship building forecast, the LOCSVs are not planned for construction unitl about the mid 2030's, so it stands to reason the expenditure is limited. I imagine the plan is to copy the American system, so minimal need to develop a new design before that time.

I did notice on the forecast they have the Arafura program finishing about 2027, so that should be when we see all six in the water and doing something useful. Another two years of work remaining.

I also noticed they have evolved cape class construction through to about 2035, so it looks like they have banked in continuous patrol boat production for the replacement of the legacy capes and other Border Force vessels. Austal will be happy.

I also noted that the GPF project goes through to 2045, so assuming 8 ships built locally with the first handed over in 2035, this equates to a new one in service every 1.25 years. Likewise similar cadence from the Hunters through to 2042, meaning from about 2030, we will see approx one new combat ship every eight months or so.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
AUS/Anduril Ghost shark… Orca is US/Boeing.

Ridiculous…
-Up to $3.7 billion to 2034 for 6 OPVs. The Japanese new Gen opvs which are much more capable will be less than $70 million usd each and they will be building 3.5-4 per year.
-Up to $17 billion to 2034 for LCM and LCH.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
2024/25 through to 2033/34 = $5.2-7.2 billion planned investment in subsea warfare and uncrewed maritime systems.
Same period just $400-500 million on large optionally crewed surface vessels.
Interesting mix

No replacement ships for MCM, Survey or HMAS Choules.
Around thirteen vessels big and small.

I can understand concepts evolve.
The unmanned autonomous space will evolve and complement or replace systems of the past.

Just wondering what it looks like going forward

Frigates doing some of the above duties
maybe , but vessel numbers will be challenged.

Choules replaced by the large fleet of LCM and Heavy I can understand , but what about fleet supply as suggested in the Joint Support Ship
Concept
Can certainly see a need for a third supply ship

Not sure our future fleet has the correct mix going forward.

The flixible / flight deck of the Arafura looks promising. Alas only six ships

Thoughts

Regards S
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
The whole lean crew thing has been a big development area over the last 20 years with some significant failures. What we seem to be coming around to is a ship with around 100-120 in a 5000-6000t frigate, as a bit of a general sweet spot.
It needs to be viewed in context. For smaller national navies that don't have expectations of high-tempo, expeditionary operations, it works well. National characteristics just as population / recruitment drives it as well.

Singapore's 8000 ton MRCV is looking at just 80 crew, while their recently completed LMV program emphasised repeatedly on how they managed to reduce the crewing to just 23 via integrated operations room, and high degrees of automation.

 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Choules replaced by the large fleet of LCM and Heavy I can understand , but what about fleet supply as suggested in the Joint Support Ship
Concept
Can certainly see a need for a third supply ship
I thought that the earlier plan to replace HMAS Choules with 2 Joint Support Ships was a great option as it gives an additional vessel for amphibious operations as well as providing additional RAS capacity to support the larger fleet.

The government’s plan is for the ADF to provide deterrence at a distance so the need for additional supply vessels is obvious.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
ADM reporting that the 3rd upgraded Mogami (the 1st of 3 built in 2026) would go to RAN if MHI were to win the SEA3000 contract.

Upgraded Mogami 1 and 2 are to begin construction in 2025. launch in 2027 and enter service in 2028/2029.
Upgraded Mogami 3, 4 and 5 from 2026.

That could mean the 1st delivery to RAN in 2028 and 2029 commissioning at the earliest.
If MHI continue to produce 3 a year and 1 of every 3 goes to the RAN, 3 upgraded Mogamis by 2032 is possible.

Henderson build is unclear, begins either late 2020s or early 2030s.
Fair to say it would take 5 or more years for the first onshore build…
Hopefully a 4th built overseas is on the table.

 
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