The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

rsemmes

Member
"... wouldn't be aimed at an official". I strongly disagree with your concept of terrorism. (Hitting power stations is aimed.)

"Is killing serving members of the armed forces of a country which is fighting your country terrorism?" Serving members, active members, members...

No one denies that is a fair target, like a power station.


I find the use of "audacious" disgusting. It seems that some people is quite happy with that use in those circumstances.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I was talking about the killing.

On the other hand, someone (Russia, for example) could argue that he is procuring arms for Ukraine, so he is actively involve in the war; I don't think Kirilov was actually fighting. Zaluzhny was certainly involved in the war, is there any statute of limitations?
Zaluzhny is only an example, I find the "audacious" disgusting.
It's a uniformed Russian general killed in a time of war. He's a legitimate military target.

Kirilov was the commander of a branch of the Russian armed forces. Is killing serving members of the armed forces of a country which is invading your country terrorism?
The US killed Iraqi generals during the war in Iraq, and they weren't invading the US. They were still a legitimate target. It doesn't even matter who's at fault in the war, Ukraine hit a Russian commanding officer during a war with Russia. There's nothing particularly questionable about this.
 

rsemmes

Member
Regarding that French-trained brigade, its AWOL and the change of commander... And those new units Feanor was talking about.
It has been used as a organ donor, not as a bde, not even by btn, just as replacements; no drones, no anti-drones and all thanks to the Ukrainian High Command.

« Qu’est-il arrivé à la 155e… ? Même le fait que les Français aient tenté de spécialiser la brigade ne l’a pas protégée des décisions militaires stupides de nos généraux qui ont démantelé l’unité »
...
Le ministère des Armées ajoute que, concernant la demande d’un député de fournir des drones à la 155e brigade, la censure du gouvernement et la démission des ministres ont « suspendu » toutes les sollicitations. Y compris les plus urgentes.
...
« la principale cause des défaites de nos troupes dans la direction de Pokrovsk est la gestion incompétente des troupes ». « Pas l’avantage numérique de l’ennemi, pas le manque de soldats que nous avons, mais la gestion et l’organisation des troupes, poursuit-il. La grande majorité des commandants d’unités à Pokrovsk disent la même chose. »
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
^ Read a couple of articles about it in some outlet in English and Ukrainian outlets a few days ago. It’s a shame. One of the reasons I highly doubt there is some serious counteroffensive incoming. Maybe some incursion attempt with little likelihood of success (well, considering the Russian past decision making, you cannot discount anything, really).


On the subject of the assassination of Gen. Kirillov and wording in the media, today/yesterday I read various articles using such words as audacious, brave, ingenuity, a blow (to Russia), embarrassment, etc. Sorry, I am not going to provide any citations because it is not exactly relevant. But since it was brought up, not really sure what is audacious, brave, or ingenious about it. This is as raw as it gets, there is nothing special about it. As for the blow and embarrassment… Not really. “Blow” is completely irrelevant since this matters very little, if at all. Embarrassment? Again, not sure what is embarrassing here. This is more like a punch in the nuts. At the same time, however, the opponent (Ukraine) cannot reach above the nuts, so nuts is the logical choice. Overall, way more hype than the event is worth. This sums it up rather well, in my opinion:

Experts and intelligence officials credited Ukrainian counterintelligence for thwarting such plots, but said Russia was also less reliant — intentionally so — on covert operations than Ukraine. Unlike Ukraine, Russia can fire long-range missiles that can hit anywhere, and were likely using their operatives for intelligence gathering and weapons targeting, rather than assassinations, said Ralph Goff, a former senior C.I.A. official, who stills travels frequently to Ukraine.

For the Ukrainians, carrying out assassinations, he said, “is a strategy of necessity because it’s all they got.”



Another question is whether this is productive. In my opinion, it is not and likely the opposite. It’s not like they eliminated a Zhukov or someone like that. These guys are probably a dime a dozen (no disrespect to the departed, especially since I know next to nothing about the man). In other words, it has zero purpose as far as the war effort is concerned. Russia has probably put more generals and other high ranking officials to their own (Russian) jails on corruption charges than Ukrainians have killed since the invasion. Some who seemed and thought of by the their peers and analysts as most capable have also been arrested or sent to Africa. So yes, there is no ingenuity and audacity to these irrelevant events. At least it wasn’t another unsuspected driver on the bridge, another Dugina or what’s his name… Tatarskiy or something like that, and no bystanders or wive, kids, etc were involved.

On this note, I also want to mention the following. I am not sure what to call them, really, but these social media “generals, economists, war strategists, and all other experts” that are completely detached from reality are getting extremely annoying. Moreover, some of the best analysts are being affected. I talked about it several times previously here, but it is getting to the next level now. Mike Kofman recently said that he practically stopped posting on X because of this very reason. The fella from Spain nicknamed Jompy (the counter I am sure most are familiar with) also recently stated that he is quiting “the business” at the end of the year because of this very reason. This French scholar with some excellent analysis and commentary, whose name I cannot recall at the moment for whatever reason, stopped posting because of this same crowd a couple of months ago. Many other individuals I know of have significantly cut down their posting activity or stopped completely in the past few months because of these very imbeciles. Two days ago, the “crew” accused Mark Galeotti (in my opinion, the best western expert on Russia today, hands down, and not many even come close) of working for Russia and Russian oligarchs and whatever other rubbish, where he actually felt the need to speak up and defend himself (crazy, right?). Tatarigami, the fella from Ukraine with mostly great insights, was also (again) accused yesterday (a couple of days ago?) of being either a defeatist at best or a Russian troll at worst. Personally, I am not sure why anyone cares, but it clearly affects people. Today, a fella named Preston Stewart, who actually raised funds for the Ukrainian war effort, made his X account private after making a comment about the means of this Kirollov elimination, that it might have some eye brows raised and be seen in negative light (he isn’t necessarily wrong). What happened after him making that comment was the “crew” with personal attacks of ridiculous level, and so on. I don’t particularly care for Preston singularly, but we are losing some of the best analysts and insights about this war and other topics as well. The crew is greatly enabled by the likes of Gen. Ben Hodges (discussed previously and I think that was the nail in the coffin for Mike Kofman). There are, of course, many others, including some made “famous” by this war guys that graduated with a Bachelor in Psychology, ran a baseball stats website until the invasion, who are probably pretty good at statistics and spreadsheets, often enough have good insights and are quoted by thousands of individuals. They now, however, declare themselves experts in warfare, economics, international relations, you name it, and attack people who have been studying this stuff their entire lives; and they bring the “fandom” along into the echo chamber. I am not going to mention any particular names, but the aforementioned is a real life example. This circus has gotten out of hand and has some real consequences (see fundraisers shutting down their accounts as an obvious example).
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
KPA Weapons Tracker noted at least a battalion (18 to 20 ) Koksan / M1989s moving through Russia.

KPA fighting in Ukraine on large scale certainly was not on my bingo card this year.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm fairly confident Russia has a maximalist starting position, a compromise target, and a minimum line beyond which they won't agree to any peace. The question is where these lines are.
Putin just stated that Russia is ready to negotiate with Ukraine without preconditions and wants them to be based on the Istanbul Accords with a "consideration of realities on the ground" (i.e. Russia expects to keep territories). Note this runs in principle counter to prior statements that seemed to say that Ukraine needs to evacuate all territories Russian annexed before negotiations could begin but that statement always looked suspicious and likely not an accurate statement of Russia's position.

I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is willing to accept something close to the current line of contact as the basis for a permanent settlement, possibly trading some territory in Kharkov region for some additional ground in the Donbas. And if Russia is really preparing to negotiate, it might explain both why they're not starting the battle for Pokrovsk (so as not to be stuck in the middle of the city when the war ends) and why Russia is so enthusiastically trying to blast their way through Toretsk instead of trying to encircle the city and force a Ukrainian withdrawal.

In other words, it's possible we're about to see an actual attempt to end the war through diplomacy. However it's also possible that Russia expects to get the rest of Donetsk region or even Zaporozhye and Kherson handed over to them as part of a resolution. And I suspect Russia won't accept a ceasefire, only an actual peace treaty with a formal recognition of the territory they've taken. They certainly shouldn't accept a ceasefire if they have any good sense. Conspicuously absent is anything about sanctions.

On a side note Putin also opposed any international peacekeepers without Russian approval, for obvious reasons. And he also mentions that Russia will only negotiate with a legitimate government in Ukraine. This may or may not mean they won't talk to Zelensky. I suspect this is a fall back position to use if negotiations aren't going well.

 
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Fredled

Active Member
KipPotapych said:
On the subject of the assassination of Gen. Kirillov
The medias and everyone on the blogosphere and youtubosphere wants to make sensational news, daily and constantly, to get viewers. That's whay they will always inflate the importance of any event. Their job is to make ypou believe that the event they are talking about is extremely important and extraordinary.
Personally I don't pay much attention to this.

Now, was the Kirillov assassination worth it?
If Ukrainians did it, it means that it was worth it in their opinion.
For them, eliminating any member of the Russian military or of the propaganda aparatus is worth it.

There are two scenario:
1/ Kirillov was killed because they had an opportunity to kill him and it worked.

2/ They targeted him for a good reason.
Kirillov was not a half-retired general sitting somewhere in the Siberian far east. According to the description of his job he could be either important or very important. I don't say that he was important, only that he could be important.

Russians said that they caught a suspect who admitted being paid $100 000. This is a big sum in Russia (especialy if in USD).
here, again, two scenario:
1/ This is a story completely made up to reassure Russian civilians and military personel alike, and to show that terrorsists do that for money.
2/ It's true, and it means that Ukrainians were ready to offer a bounty this big for Kirillov.
_________________

Feanor said:
Putin just stated that Russia is ready to negotiate with Ukraine without preconditions and wants them to be based on the Istanbul Accords with a "consideration of realities on the ground" (i.e. Russia expects to keep territories).
It's a fact that there is increasing speculations in the medias about ceasefire talks.
Yet nothing concretely so far from either side.

I don;t have the feeling that Putin is refraining from some action because peace or ceasefire talks would start soon. If he finds himself in the middle of Pokrovsk when peace talks begin, so what? Build a Berlin wall in the middle of the city and case closed.
Maybe, he doesn't try to take Pokrovsk at any cost anymore because he sees that he won't be able to before peace talks begun. But as there is no indication that any peace talks are about to start, it's rather that he sees that he won;t take the town right now in any case. I mean, there is a difference between not trying as much as possible and deciding to put it on hold.

IMO, Zelensky and Putin will express on the medias a willingness to negotiate in order to be nice with Trump and influence his decisions. But this will be facial expressions only, not real intent, let alone facts. War will continue as intensively as possible even as they meet at the negotiation table.

Putin's sayoing that Zelensky is illigitimate is just a tit-for-tat 5response to Zelensky's law to forbid negotiating with Putin. It only underline their unwillingness to talk at the moment.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The medias and everyone on the blogosphere and youtubosphere wants to make sensational news, daily and constantly, to get viewers. That's whay they will always inflate the importance of any event. Their job is to make ypou believe that the event they are talking about is extremely important and extraordinary.
Personally I don't pay much attention to this.

Now, was the Kirillov assassination worth it?
If Ukrainians did it, it means that it was worth it in their opinion.
For them, eliminating any member of the Russian military or of the propaganda aparatus is worth it.

There are two scenario:
1/ Kirillov was killed because they had an opportunity to kill him and it worked.

2/ They targeted him for a good reason.
Kirillov was not a half-retired general sitting somewhere in the Siberian far east. According to the description of his job he could be either important or very important. I don't say that he was important, only that he could be important.

Russians said that they caught a suspect who admitted being paid $100 000. This is a big sum in Russia (especialy if in USD).
here, again, two scenario:
1/ This is a story completely made up to reassure Russian civilians and military personel alike, and to show that terrorsists do that for money.
2/ It's true, and it means that Ukrainians were ready to offer a bounty this big for Kirillov.
_________________
It's not that big of a bounty. Look up the cost of a single cruise missile.

It's a fact that there is increasing speculations in the medias about ceasefire talks.
Yet nothing concretely so far from either side.

I don;t have the feeling that Putin is refraining from some action because peace or ceasefire talks would start soon. If he finds himself in the middle of Pokrovsk when peace talks begin, so what? Build a Berlin wall in the middle of the city and case closed.
Maybe, he doesn't try to take Pokrovsk at any cost anymore because he sees that he won't be able to before peace talks begun. But as there is no indication that any peace talks are about to start, it's rather that he sees that he won;t take the town right now in any case. I mean, there is a difference between not trying as much as possible and deciding to put it on hold.
I think it's a combination of several factors. Pokrovsk itself is about the same size as Artemovsk/Bakhmut. But right next to it is Mirnograd with another ~47 000 population. And there is a large number of outlying villages that are de-facto suburbs. I couldn't find a good figure for the metropolitan area, but I suspect the entire thing is a population of somewhere between 120-150 000. And Artemovsk/Bakhmut took months of fighting through. Some might point out that Russia has better use of UAVs and gliding bombs these days, and this is true. But look at Toretsk. It's still a slow fight. Granted the Donetsk area gets more resources but in general I think the fight for Pokrovsk itself could well take anywhere from 4-12 months depending on a variety of factors.

IMO, Zelensky and Putin will express on the medias a willingness to negotiate in order to be nice with Trump and influence his decisions. But this will be facial expressions only, not real intent, let alone facts. War will continue as intensively as possible even as they meet at the negotiation table.
Agreed. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Putin's sayoing that Zelensky is illigitimate is just a tit-for-tat 5response to Zelensky's law to forbid negotiating with Putin. It only underline their unwillingness to talk at the moment.
I think it's less about unwillingness to talk in principle for Russia and more of a response. I also think it's one way for Russia to explain a breakdown in negotiations as "not our fault, he's illegitimate". I would agree that if the sides want to talk, they will step over these objections themselves relatively easily.
 

Fredled

Active Member
The oil plant in Rostov was hit by a French SCALP missile.
Xavier Tytelman said:
As far as I know, this is the first time a French missile of this type has been used. We have images that confirm this, and we know one specific type of such missile - SCALP, with a range of 300 km, fired from Ukrainian Su-24 fighters.

At the time, we didn't know exactly what it was, because it's very hard to tell the difference between the British Storm Shadow and the French Scalp

300 kilometers is the maximum distance we can deliver to Ukraine in compliance with international standards. We have carefully studied the map and also checked the images of the wreckage. These are identifiable pieces of debris with stickers that are typical of French equipment
________________
Russian still active in the Dniepr Delta:
Enemy persists in its efforts to capture Kozatskyi Island

According to Ukrinform, most attacks are in still in Pokrovsk sector
________________
Zelensky comments on the so called "Istambul Agreement":
Zelemsky said:
In general, I am surprised by his statement that he [Putin] is ready for something, he constantly says that I am illegitimate... The ultimatum contained, and they always talk about it, 'demilitarization' and 'denazification'... The main Nazi on the planet today, Putin, is talking about denazification of Ukrainians... Demilitarization, so that there would be no army in Ukraine, or something like that, I don't remember... they talked about 40-50,000…. He simply offered Ukraine to surrender, freeze the conflict, change the direction of development-neither Europe nor NATO, but the direction to the Russian Federation, so that they could rule our state, deprive us of our independence. And this person says that these are some kind of agreements... He is just an old fantasist. He lives in another world, in his own aquarium

Their 'messengers' in different directions, using different sources, showed us the details of this ultimatum. These messengers are not in Ukraine, they have already fled to Russia or abroad. In any case, Ukraine did not agree to the Russian ultimatum. They tried to take the following steps: somewhere they softened their position on this ultimatum, these were meetings in Belarus and Turkey, and they called these meetings the “Istanbul agreements.” Ukraine did not sign anything, there were no agreements, it was a response to the Russian ultimatum
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Russian missile/drone (often one of a dozen or more) strikes clearly civilian infrastructure: they do that on purpose to terrorize the population and show the people that the war is not only there but also here and these are war crimes and terrorism and so on.

Ukrainian drones (2 out of three or so?) hit clearly civilian infrastructure: this cannot be on purpose because they wouldn’t waste the capability and planning to hit these buildings and hit something valuable instead; it just shows how complex long-range strike planning is and thus the strikes have gotta be accidental.

The first paragraph is the usual media and analysts’ deductions about the Russian strikes (which include falling debris from intercepts or the interceptors themselves). The second is today’s media coverage and analysts’ deductions about the strike on Kazan.

From my post on the previous page:

IMG_8263.jpeg

By looking at that map, it is not hard to guess the route these drones followed to get all the way to Kazan.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There are some interesting developments. Russia's foothold across the Oskol is expanding and Russia now holds most of Rakovo neighborhood in Dvurechnoe. The river frontage is now about double what it was to start with at this spot, and there is a real chance Russia will take the entire village. Meanwhile there are continuous unconfirmed reports, including from Ukrainian sources, that Russia has a foothold across the Dnepr in Kherson city near the Antonov bridge. Note this would a mirror operation to what Ukraine did on the left shore previously. And this might not indicate a general offensive, but there are continuous rumors circulating that Russia intends to cross the river.
 
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