That sounds sensible - they have kit locally like Mk41 they can pull in from the hulls they're replacing etc and if gets some local work for a yard etc.
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for sure.
Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) News and Discussion
- Thread starter Systems Adict
- Start date
That sounds sensible - they have kit locally like Mk41 they can pull in from the hulls they're replacing etc and if gets some local work for a yard etc.
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out for sure.
I agree that if you look at the current makeup of the RNoN fleet your proposals would make a lot of sense.
However, two things to keep in mind:
1. The current fleet was built when Russia was basically no threat, it was still recovering after the crash of the USSR, and Norway like most other European countries were slashing defence budgets right and left ("peace dividend"). Now the situation has changed dramatically. Russia has demonstrated extreme aggressiveness. and clearly want to rebuild it's empire. In addition, the US is gradually shifting focus to China, which implies less focus on Europe and potentially less military support available in the future. Norwegian analysts are very clear: Norwegian Navy in it's current state is close to useless, and must be rebuilt.
2. Norway is disgustingly rich. We have the "oil fund" which seems to just keep growing and growing. The politicians has decided that any year they should not spend more than 3% of the oil fund (some years ago the limit was 4%). If there is an emergency they could theoretically declare an emergency and use even more. Thus, unlike almost all other countries on this planet Norway can increase defence budget significantly without worrying about increasing taxes or borrowing money. A couple of years ago defence was 1.5% of GDP; this year it will be around 2% and around 2030 it will be at 3%.
Hopefully the frigates they purchase will be fully fitted with whatever missiles and guns are best meeting the needs of the RNoN. This is not the time to save money, especially when you are disgustingly rich. The "Oil Fund" is currently slightly above 17,200 billion NOK (1,630 Billion USD) and growing. How much would it be for five Type 26 off-the-shelf?
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you say, Vivendi. Norway has the motivation and funds to buy good quality frigates like a fully-specced Type 26. 3% of the oil fund would be about $49 billion. That's a huge amount of money that can be drawn down for increased spending.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Vard is proposing the Constellation class for the RNoN, a rather optimistic proposal IMO given the progress to date in the US. T26, albeit more expensive or maybe not given the number of design changes, is a better sub hunter and there are three allied navies investing in T26. A fleet of over 30 T26s is likely, especially if Norway joins in.
breakingdefense.com
Norway's Vard hosts senior officials, argues for Constellation-class designed by ‘our closest ally’ - Breaking Defense
Vard recently hosted a high-level defense ministry tour, but it faces competition from other internationally renowned shipbuilders, including the UK's BAE Systems, France's Naval Group and Damen Group from the Netherlands.
breakingdefense.com
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Because it's the Constellation-class, not FREMM. They're essentially two different ships now, because the USN made so many changes to the design. It's not ASW-focused, more a general frigate that tries to do everything - lots of missiles, powerful radar, etc.
The C-class has been a problem child. The first ship was only laid down this year, and is way behind schedule. If Norway wants to go with it, fine, but given the project is still in its early days it would be high risk.
It would also mean much later deliveries, because Vard is currently not prepared to do the work. It would be years before they could start production, even if they won a contract. Whereas the Type 26 is being built right now. Supposedly Norway wants the first ship sooner rather than later.
Last edited:
26 has very good quieting measures - measures which informally I've been told come close to an SSN - not sure how accurate that it is of course, but it is supposed to be quieter than most platforms available, Additionally, the machinery has all been de-risked in on-shore facility several years ago, which the Constellation program has yet to do. Also, the Type 26 in RN hands, is a mature design, and ships are being built to that design.
If Norway went the route of the Type 26, it's in production, with a local yard and could be put into service with modest changes.
Announced today: 4 countries have been shortlisted to deliver the new frigates: France, Germany, the UK, and the US.
It was not a big surprise that these 4 countries move to the next step. 2 independent experts suggested the most likely winner would be amongst the 4 countries short listed. (I did suggest Netherlands would make the short list, so I missed on that one but then again I am a lay person not an expert so I am still happy )
A total of 11 countries were in the first round. Those that did not make the short list: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, South Korea.
Selection will be made next year. I am guessing the most likely winner is the UK, the Norwegian Navy has a long history of close collaboration with the Brits. I would put Germany or the US 2nd most likely. We have a very close collaboration with Germany on the new submarines, and also a close collaboration with Germany on developing a new long range anti-ship missile. And the US is of course a very close ally and extremely important to Norwegian security. I must admit I am somewhat surprised about France.
Gram bekrefter: Fire land er med videre i fregatt-kampen
It was not a big surprise that these 4 countries move to the next step. 2 independent experts suggested the most likely winner would be amongst the 4 countries short listed. (I did suggest Netherlands would make the short list, so I missed on that one but then again I am a lay person not an expert so I am still happy
)A total of 11 countries were in the first round. Those that did not make the short list: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, South Korea.
Selection will be made next year. I am guessing the most likely winner is the UK, the Norwegian Navy has a long history of close collaboration with the Brits. I would put Germany or the US 2nd most likely. We have a very close collaboration with Germany on the new submarines, and also a close collaboration with Germany on developing a new long range anti-ship missile. And the US is of course a very close ally and extremely important to Norwegian security. I must admit I am somewhat surprised about France.
Gram bekrefter: Fire land er med videre i fregatt-kampen
Last edited:
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
The US proposal is Fincantieri Marinette Marine's Constellation class... so basically we could say it's an italo-american proposal
Almost nothing Italian left in the Constellation class honestly.
FMM only owns part of the design - the design agent is Gibbs & Cox and the Combat System agent is Lockheed Martin. The Italians handed over their design drawings and since then have had no role in Americanizing it. The sensors, weapons, propulsion system, build standards, bow & mast structures are all American. Just about the only thing remaining from the original FREMM is the towed sonar, which is French, not Italian, and the gas turbines, which were already American!
But Fincantieri presumably stand to make a small amount of money both via FMM participating in any export build and via licensing fees (assuming they added an export clause into the USN contract).
Last edited:
SolarisKenzo
Well-Known Member
The Constellation class is proposed to Norway by Fincantieri-Vard, not by Gibbs &Cox.
VARD Group is 100% controlled by Fincantieri.
Fincantieri Marinette Marine (or the entire Fincantieri Marine Group if you prefer) is also controlled totally by Fincantieri.
So, I really dont understand when you say Italy (but it could be Malaysia for what I care) has "almost nothing" to do with the Constellation class.
It's not the italian or french version of FREMM, but it's still a Fincantieri proposal.
And, if it is selected, the builder ( VARD) is 100% owned by Fincantieri, too.
What I mean is that the US government requires « Chinese walls » for foreign suppliers and designs. So FMM is staffed by Americans, with US security clearances and Fincantieri Italy can’t access any design documents at FMM, let alone share them with Norway. Also since FMM are just a yard and not a designer or systems integrator, and they couldn’t use Fincantieri’s Italian design team, they had to subcontract design work to Gibbs & Cox who took the Italian design plans and changed 85% of the ship, and they had to subcontract systems integration to Lockheed Martin.
So at this point FFG-62 is a US design, by US designers, in a US yard, with US weapons and systems, which will require US Navy approval and involvement for any foreign sale. There are no Italians involved and it will be Americans at Fincantieri US handling any export sales, with Americans at Gibbs & Cox and LM continuing to provide design, engineering and integration services to Vard (or any other foreign yard approved by the US gov).
Last edited: