Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) News and Discussion

[hauritz]

I feel I am stating the obvious, but there is no way they are getting that thing back into service after 3 months underwater ... right?

I imagine just about everything will need replacing.

 

[t68]

I imagine they can still use the hull, but would it be worth it slicing and diceing to get everything in/out

 

[StevoJH]

People/organisations can do strange things when pride is on the line. It depends on if it is looked at in purely monetary terms or not. In financial terms, they would presumably be better off ordering a new ship if the requirement exists.

 

[t68]

People/organisations can do strange things when pride is on the line. It depends on if it is looked at in purely monetary terms or not. In financial terms, they would presumably be better off ordering a new ship if the requirement exists.

Yep it would be like 100% Reno on a house after a major flooding, most likely cheaper to knock down and build new, actually was for me

 

[StingrayOZ]

I imagine they can still use the hull, but would it be worth it slicing and diceing to get everything in/out

I would imagine you would have to basically take everything out, inspect/clean/test and then refit.
Would be cheaper to build a new ship.

Might be more reasonable if they decide to "upgrade" a lot of the equipment. Engines, radar, computers, electrics etc. I thought the way that Norway crewed these, they could get by without this ship quite easily and it could be used for spares/parts.

 

[Redlands18]

I would imagine you would have to basically take everything out, inspect/clean/test and then refit.
Would be cheaper to build a new ship.

Might be more reasonable if they decide to "upgrade" a lot of the equipment. Engines, radar, computers, electrics etc. I thought the way that Norway crewed these, they could get by without this ship quite easily and it could be used for spares/parts.

And the class was built between 2003-11 so not exactly brand new, so even if you decide to build a new one it’s going to be 20 years older then the first of Class Fridtjof Nansen so you are going to end up with a Ship that is an half Sister at best.

 

[Systems Adict]

I would imagine you would have to basically take everything out, inspect/clean/test and then refit.
Would be cheaper to build a new ship.

Might be more reasonable if they decide to "upgrade" a lot of the equipment. Engines, radar, computers, electrics etc. I thought the way that Norway crewed these, they could get by without this ship quite easily and it could be used for spares/parts.

The UK Royal Navy faced a similar dilemma back in the early 00's with HMS Nottingham ran aground. Her crew fought valiantly & saved the ship, but only just.
The ship was brought back, stripped / repaired & put back to sea after some time, at a cost of over 30 millions of pounds, but it is obvious she was never the same & the details in the link below show that major damage to an older warship are likely to mean that unless it is essential to maintain your fleet, it's better to scrap the ship & start again...

HMS Nottingham (D91) - Wikipedia

 

[swerve]

And the class was built between 2003-11 so not exactly brand new, so even if you decide to build a new one it’s going to be 20 years oldernewer then the first of Class Fridtjof Nansen so you are going to end up with a Ship that is an half Sister at best.

Helge Ingstad was built 2006-9, so is just coming up to 10 years old.

 

[StevoJH]

The UK Royal Navy faced a similar dilemma back in the early 00's with HMS Nottingham ran aground. Her crew fought valiantly & saved the ship, but only just.
The ship was brought back, stripped / repaired & put back to sea after some time, at a cost of over 30 millions of pounds, but it is obvious she was never the same & the details in the link below show that major damage to an older warship are likely to mean that unless it is essential to maintain your fleet, it's better to scrap the ship & start again...

HMS Nottingham (D91) - Wikipedia

Right, but Nottingham didn't spend 3 months completely underwater. And presumably much of the electronics would have been above the maximum water level.

 

[hauritz]

Report: Cost to Repair Wrecked Norwegian Frigate Exceeds $1.4B
It will cost more to repair the KNM Helge Ingstad than it would to replace it. Nearly three times more than it cost to build in the first place. I guess the debate now moves to whether the ship will be replaced.

 

[StobieWan]

Report: Cost to Repair Wrecked Norwegian Frigate Exceeds $1.4B
It will cost more to repair the KNM Helge Ingstad than it would to replace it. Nearly three times more than it cost to build in the first place. I guess the debate now moves to whether the ship will be replaced.

That pretty much confirms what everyone has been saying I guess - the usual rule for commercial salvage is that if the machinery spaces are flooded, the hull is a total constructive loss. In the case of the Helge, I think I said before that I believed they could probably keep the contents of the bilges, everything else would have to be changed.

The only possible reason to repair would have been if there were some really strange accounting fudge that meant that the budget for repairing her came from some other pot than the one that might be used to replace her. I doubt she will be replaced as we already know that the existing fleet was frequently laid up and several hulls were picked over for parts etc.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Pick and pay less for spares. Nothing electrical. Probably increase the availability given how tight things were before. They will install some pumps and keep her afloat. But never sail. Probably remove her prop already.

 

[Stampede]

Pick and pay less for spares. Nothing electrical. Probably increase the availability given how tight things were before. They will install some pumps and keep her afloat. But never sail. Probably remove her prop already.

What ever the outcome, its a significant blow to a Navy of that size.
Not a challenge one would want


Regards S

 

[Blas de Lezo]

No need to wonder anymore, the report on the KNM Helge Ingstad incident has been published and clears Navantia of any responsibility or liability. No more hearsay.

Part one report on the collision on 8 November 2018 between the frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad and the oil tanker Sola TS outside the Sture Terminal in the Hjeltefjord in Hordaland county | aibn

 

[Redlands18]

No need to wonder anymore, the report on the KNM Helge Ingstad incident has been published and clears Navantia of any responsibility or liability. No more hearsay.

Part one report on the collision on 8 November 2018 between the frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad and the oil tanker Sola TS outside the Sture Terminal in the Hjeltefjord in Hordaland county | aibn

I’m not quite sure how you can come to that conclusion as the report deals only with the collision itself, not the Aftermath. There is nothing in the report concerning the extant of the damage or why the Helge Ingstad ended up sinking.
That is only part one, we may have to wait for part 2 or a seperate investigation entirely to discover why the Ship actually sank.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Did anyone think that the accident was caused by Navantia?

I think if anything, the question about Navantia was more about the effectiveness of the design or its construction to sustain damage. IMO a lot of that debate is pretty moot once the crew leaves the ship. The ship certainly wasn't prepped for a collision. So while I think there are some interesting things to learn about it, I don't think there was any serious cause to go after Navantia.

 

[KiwiRob]

No need to wonder anymore, the report on the KNM Helge Ingstad incident has been published and clears Navantia of any responsibility or liability. No more hearsay.

Part one report on the collision on 8 November 2018 between the frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad and the oil tanker Sola TS outside the Sture Terminal in the Hjeltefjord in Hordaland county | aibn

This is part one of the report which concerns how the accident happened, not how the ship functioned after the accident occured.

 

[Todjaeger]

Replying here as IMO this a more appropriate thread for the discussion topic.

I am not aware of the existing Ula class conducting ops in Russian waters.

The timing of the class wasn't ideal, as it coincided with the breakup of the Soviet union. The Ula class is very small barely a 1000t, and has limited range, and unless you are going in a very direct route, even at ~1200Nm is likely to be a long journey. Particularly on the way back fighting the cape current. There is limited opportunity to resupply. Maybe they did, but they aren't building exactly the same submarine again.

But the idea if penning in and tabbing, acoustically mapping, etc is very real. No doubt the newer 212CD submarines would be ideal in that kind of operation, with nearly double the range, this allows much ambitious mission planning. AIP would be ideal for these submarines and the swift current will be able to use to help them get to useful destinations at the start of the mission.

Australia has made public the use of its conventional submarines operating in Cam Ranh, and openly talked about operations in India, Indonesia and China, its rumored they operated as far north as Vladivostok. They regularly operate in Hawaii, which is 10,000+ km.

Link:Cold war exploits of Australia’s secret submarines

While getting information on submarine operations is difficult, for the RAN, performing surveillance it often means being a periscope depth. AIP is wasted tech if you are going to be operating in 12 feet below the surface listening and collecting.

Using submarines as a more forward operating asset seems to be highly advantageous, and conventional submarines can certainly conduct those kind of missions. If your going to invest in submarines, IMO it seems logical that you acquire something that allows you to use them in opposing territorial waters.

As you mentioned, there are options that would cause dramatic damage, and you don't even have to fire a torpedo to achieve it.

Not sure whether or not the Ula-class would have ever operated in Russian waters, or preceding coastal subs of the Kobben-class ever went into Soviet and later Russian waters. Honestly I doubt we would find out any time soon, even though the Cold War (or at least the first one...) ended about thirty years ago.

However, given the published ranges of ~5,000 and ~4,200 n miles respectively, they theoretically have or had the range to do so. Also given the Cold War era concerns about the possibility of NATO engagements vs. Soviet/Warsaw Pact forces in the far north of Norway, I would certainly believe that some discreet peacetime snooping was desired. I could also believe that at least some war scenarios would involve attempting to cut any attempts to reinforce or resupply from Russian ports and bases in the Kola Peninsula.

 

[ngatimozart]

Replying here as IMO this a more appropriate thread for the discussion topic.



Not sure whether or not the Ula-class would have ever operated in Russian waters, or preceding coastal subs of the Kobben-class ever went into Soviet and later Russian waters. Honestly I doubt we would find out any time soon, even though the Cold War (or at least the first one...) ended about thirty years ago.

However, given the published ranges of ~5,000 and ~4,200 n miles respectively, they theoretically have or had the range to do so. Also given the Cold War era concerns about the possibility of NATO engagements vs. Soviet/Warsaw Pact forces in the far north of Norway, I would certainly believe that some discreet peacetime snooping was desired. I could also believe that at least some war scenarios would involve attempting to cut any attempts to reinforce or resupply from Russian ports and bases in the Kola Peninsula.

I would not be surprised if Norwegian subs paid discreet visits to Soviet waters. Even though there is a lack of evidence within the public domain to support any such assertion, the possibility exists that Norwegian subs did operate covertly in Soviet waters.

 

[Systems Adict]

It's been some time since the accidental sinking & subsequent announcement to scrap KNM Helge Ingstad.

I thought that there might have been something about a procurement programme. The only thing that sprung up with a google search was this...

Future Acquisitions For the Norwegian Defence Sector 2021–2028

Anyone care to make suggestions of where they should spend their hard earned funds ??

SA