Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[recce.k1]

oh no... some one wasn't watching where they were going...

And it turns out the incident happened at night ...

Sad to hear of the 5th October 2024 grounding of HMNZS Manawanui on a reef in Samoa.
Glad everyone abandoned ship safely and all 78 on board are accounted for, albeit still floating in liferafts when the below account was received.
A hard time ahead for Commander Yvonne Gray.

When was the last time our Navy had to abandon a ship...?

This morning's radio news reports seemed rather benign in their reporting ("ran aground" .. picturing a vessel sitting on a reef). But she is actually listing rather badly.

NZ navy ships runs aground off Siumu, 75 rescued

The Samoa Maritime Police and the Samoa Fire and Emergency Services rescued 75 sailors from New Zealand naval ship HMNZS Manawanui on Saturday night after the vessel ran aground on a reef off the coast of Siumu.Early Sunday morning, a tug boat from the Samoa Ports Authority (SPA) was dispatched t...

www.samoaobserver.ws

Navy now have a capability gap with a specialist fit for purpose asset no longer available for tasking.

Wonder if the OPV's will be hastily brought back in service as an interim solution? If so thank goodness NZDF maintained them in "custody and care" by contractor Babcock.

 

[recce.k1]

Kind of following on from the discussions on the RAN thread regarding damage control .... curious to know how "resilient" these repurposed offshore support vessels are structurally in their design (eg materially, to contain water ingress, system redundancy and so on).

Asking as similar vessels are in service in other allied nations (eg HMS Proteus and ADV Ocean Protector come to mind) and presumably were originally designed for more "benign" use to eg support the oil and gas industry moving between port and offshore infrastructure etc.

Whilst I think they are fantastic vessels for their new undersea warfare support roles (in order to also quickly trial and support new autonomous/unmanned technologies) ... could there be an opportunity to design a "more" milspec'ed vessel for common allied undersea warfare support roles?

Whilst there has been some developments from some of the naval shipbuilders (they seem to be launch platforms for autonomous/unmanned platforms in a traditional patrol vessel type design) I'm thinking of something that can also support the survey/diving/rov/mcm role with a hefty crane and plenty of deck space to bring aboard containerised special equipment and set them up, sometimes hosting allied personnel and their unique systems etc.

 

[Hawkeye69]

Very sad day for the RNZN, glad all the crew are safe.
A big capability lose and hopefully no fuel and oil leaking causing an ecological disaster.

 

[Milne Bay]

Looks like she has sunk.

New Zealand navy ship runs aground and sinks off Samoa

New Zealand says it has rescued all 75 crew and passengers from a wrecked navy vessel that ran aground and sank off Samoa while conducting a reef survey.

www.abc.net.au

All crew and passengers rescued
MB

 

[InterestedParty]

I am curious what role the P8 plays in such an event.
Is it surveying the scene, collecting weather data or because it is a large fast aircraft and available, it can be used as a transport for people and material to assist and remove the injured back to NZ. It would be getting there before a C130 could

 

[BullyHayes]

P-8a has a dive team onboard, and is carting spill containment equipment

 

[alexsa]

Kind of following on from the discussions on the RAN thread regarding damage control .... curious to know how "resilient" these repurposed offshore support vessels are structurally in their design (eg materially, to contain water ingress, system redundancy and so on).

Asking as similar vessels are in service in other allied nations (eg HMS Proteus and ADV Ocean Protector come to mind) and presumably were originally designed for more "benign" use to eg support the oil and gas industry moving between port and offshore infrastructure etc.

Whilst I think they are fantastic vessels for their new undersea warfare support roles (in order to also quickly trial and support new autonomous/unmanned technologies) ... could there be an opportunity to design a "more" milspec'ed vessel for common allied undersea warfare support roles?

Whilst there has been some developments from some of the naval shipbuilders (they seem to be launch platforms for autonomous/unmanned platforms in a traditional patrol vessel type design) I'm thinking of something that can also support the survey/diving/rov/mcm role with a hefty crane and plenty of deck space to bring aboard containerised special equipment and set them up, sometimes hosting allied personnel and their unique systems etc.

These are generally pretty tough vessels noting the undertake operations in fairly severe conditions including working close to facilities whhile maintaining position using dynamic positioning . The ADV vessels are a lower level Ice Class but I am not sure if Manawanui is built that way.

It would be interesting to know what happened first, the fire or the grounding. Either way it would appear the opened up a lot of the ships bottom. I feel for the crew as they are going have a pretty stressful time while this is investigated. Given the vessel is ex-commercial hopefully the voayge data recorder was still fitted and operating. If so that should provide and indication of what when on.

For those not familiar with a VDR

https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresources/en/KnowledgeCentre/IndexofIMOResolutions/MSCResolutions/MSC.333(90).pdf

 

[RetirementIsGood]

From the limited facts reported so far, the ship would appear to have been operating close inshore at night and in rough conditions.
I would be very interested to know why that was the case

 

[Stampede]

These are generally pretty tough vessels noting the undertake operations in fairly severe conditions including working close to facilities whhile maintaining position using dynamic positioning . The ADV vessels are a lower level Ice Class but I am not sure if Manawanui is built that way.

It would be interesting to know what happened first, the fire or the grounding. Either way it would appear the opened up a lot of the ships bottom. I feel for the crew as they are going have a pretty stressful time while this is investigated. Given the vessel is ex-commercial hopefully the voayge data recorder was still fitted and operating. If so that should provide and indication of what when on.

For those not familiar with a VDR

https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresources/en/KnowledgeCentre/IndexofIMOResolutions/MSCResolutions/MSC.333(90).pdf

A sad day for the New Zealand Navy
A day that may that may also be the day that NZ starts to have a good look at itself and considers what it wants and needs in its defence force and for this thread, what expectations it has for its maritime service.

Certainly there will be an investigation into the loss of Manawanui and that will be challenging for all involved.

I notice Wiki already has updated its NZ Navy site acknowledging the loss of Manawanui.
A glance of the NZ fleet today it shows that it now comprises
Two ANZAC's plus a small patrol boat supported by one supply ship and one multi role vessel.
Five active ships.

Two OPV's and another patrol boat are listed as laid up.
I'm sure some of the later will be back to service in due course.

Over the years there has been much discussion about what New Zealand's fleet should look like.
Many good ideas and concepts postulated, but in all reality unless there is a major boost in funding and time to build up personnel numbers the sad reality is that NZ has a very very small fleet.

Reality check........a very small fleet

NZ needs a vessel / vessels with the capability's of Manawanui.
It needs to do constabulary duties and HADR.
It needs to do the amphibious stuff in quantity and distance from shore.
It needs the range and numbers of vessels to fulfil the above duties 24 / 7 / 365.
This is a given for a modern industrialised nation.

It also needs fighting ships.
Now hears the challenge.
I realistically don't think NZ has the conviction to do justice to this aspiration.

Unless at least three throw into harms way vessels are acquired it will be a compromised bastard of a solution that satisfies nothing.

With no disrespect, a bit like its fleet today.

So lets make the loss of Manawanui a positive.
Lets make it a reflection point.
A transition point for NZ's future.

Maybe the future is one without major fighting ships but has balance in all other domains.

or

Maybe it raises the bar and commits to a balanced robust maritime fighting force going forward.

If so that force will need to at least double in size
A very big challenge.

What will NZ do?


Time will tell.


Cheers S

 

[Gibbo]

I am curious what role the P8 plays in such an event.
Is it surveying the scene, collecting weather data or because it is a large fast aircraft and available, it can be used as a transport for people and material to assist and remove the injured back to NZ. It would be getting there before a C130 could

The P8 is able to spot boats and/or people in the water from above ...it was a good first choice given it took most of the night to get personnel ashore..the P8 would've been able to spot them & relay their location to surface craft & monitor movements of rescue craft so a good first response. The dive team is AIUI to head up on a C-130 along with spill containment equipment plus other resources.

 

[Gibbo]

From the limited facts reported so far, the ship would appear to have been operating close inshore at night and in rough conditions.
I would be very interested to know why that was the case

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Ran aground at 6.46pm which is a little over 20 mins after sundown...twilight is limited in the topics but they were leaving the work area at the time so not working in the dark. Who knows ...could've been a mechanical issue (eg: azimuth thruster) but all speculation for now.

 

[kiwi in exile]

A sad day for the New Zealand Navy
So lets make the loss of Manawanui a positive.
Lets make it a reflection point.
A transition point for NZ's future.

Maybe the future is one without major fighting ships but has balance in all other domains.

or

Maybe it raises the bar and commits to a balanced robust maritime fighting force going forward.

My thought on the Manawanui as a ship were mixed. She had some great niche capabilities with onboard deep dive support and salvage. Wasn't sure if the salvage capability would have seen much use. Isn't most hydrography and MCM now accomplised remotely via UUVs USVs. I would argue another OPV type platform with modular mission space for hydrogaphy and MCM would have had more utility for a navy our size (smaller T31). That seems to be the thinking behind HMNZS Matataua. Liked the diving bell and moon pool though.

Glad our personel are generally allright (2-3 injured as per MSM). Don't see this govt stumping up "$100M" for a replacement anytime soon. The govt is good at sounding tough on defence on record (especially if there are other 5eyes pols around) but as with recent hospital projects has shown that theres not really any more money to cover neceesities. Tunnels under wellington and covered sports stadiums thiough...
Hopefully crew can be rapidly re-rolled into OPV

 

[recce.k1]

Defence Minister Collins states the vessel lost power.

"It's going to be quite a big job": Defence Minister on HMNZS Manawanui investigation

A raft of questions in the wake of the sinking of our first naval ship in peacetime. The HMNZS Manawanui went down off the coast of Samoa yesterday, after

www.newstalkzb.co.nz

(I think some of the more informed posters here could elaborate further if they wish to do so now this has been acknowledged (on the record) by the DefMin, judging by their well articulated and balanced responses to uninformed nonsense on another site yesterday)?

Former Defence Minister Mark appears to throw his former coalition colleagues under the bus for compromising on the purchase of this second hand vessel? But he also acknowledges the risk that commercial vessels lack the redundancy systems and design features to better assist with survivability.

Former defence minister on sinking of Manawanui

A former defence minister says the sinking of HMNZS Manawanui off Samoa is heart-breaking and gutting. Former defence minister Ron Mark spoke to Guyon Espiner.

www.rnz.co.nz

But to be fair (presumably) drifting onto a reef (with the ocean reportedly dropping down 2,000m deep just before to the reef, if that's the case that may limit dropping anchors for example?) in less than ideal sea and wind conditions would sutrely become problematic for many vessels?

Kudos to the ship's captain, crew and proceedures for safely evacuating in less than ideal circumstances and here's hoping the two personnel injured when their boat overturned on the reef make a safe recovery.

Kiwi in Exile: I think best to await the release of the DCP and make judgements then when comparing defence projects to other public infrastructure projects and funding. I'm sure then there will be lots of positives (and some wacky negatives) to ensure robust discussion.

 

[spoz]

These are generally pretty tough vessels noting the undertake operations in fairly severe conditions including working close to facilities whhile maintaining position using dynamic positioning . The ADV vessels are a lower level Ice Class but I am not sure if Manawanui is built that way.

It would be interesting to know what happened first, the fire or the grounding. Either way it would appear the opened up a lot of the ships bottom. I feel for the crew as they are going have a pretty stressful time while this is investigated. Given the vessel is ex-commercial hopefully the voayge data recorder was still fitted and operating. If so that should provide and indication of what when on.

For those not familiar with a VDR

https://wwwcdn.imo.org/localresources/en/KnowledgeCentre/IndexofIMOResolutions/MSCResolutions/MSC.333(90).pdf

Warships are fitted with VDRs these days.

Very few commercial vessels have anything like the DC capabilities of a warship. That is why the pros on this board constantly decry suggestions to add armament to such ships. Manawanui would, because of her designed function, have been better than average but still well below warship level. However, the DC aspects of the incident will be one of the things examined by the BoI; and it is premature to comment without knowing any of the facts beyond “she hit a reef and sank”.

 

[chis73]

Such a sad day for the RNZN. This may well be the nadir for the service. Thankful that at least everyone got off alive.

DefMin Collins thinks the vessel may have lost power then struck the reef (but then throws doubt on that, listen at the 4 minute mark here - link). So let's all wait and see what the Court of Inquiry says. Worrying that she claims that "it wasn't a battleship" - good grief!

What I am concerned about is the probable loss of the RNZN Hydrographic & Dive capabilities while the Luxon government diddles around (as they most assuredly will - they won't want to spend any money). People will lose patience and leave.

Trying to think outside the square for a possible way out of this - what's the status on the RN's HMS Echo or HMS Enterprise? Both are decommissioned and laid up in the UK I think (Enterprise only 18 months ago). Short term lease option perhaps (to at least keep the capability going)? Wouldn't have the Dive & Salvage Facilities that Manawanui had - but still, could be a great option. Certainly would have the range we need. Both vessels are the same age as Manawanui was, but undoubtedly have been used much harder.

 

[recce.k1]

I'd doubt RNZN Hydrographic & Dive capabilities will suffer in the medium or long run - the littoral warfare unit's tempo is busy and they are at the forefront of NZDF's collaborative efforts with the likes of the RAN, US and Canadian naval teams in joint undersea warfare training and the trialing and deploying of autonomous technology etc. The unit is designed to operate on whatever sea (and air) assets that are available so should be able to transition to alternative solutions in the interim.

So it's an area the NZDF (or Govt) can't afford to not maintain - HMS Tamar is now "on station" at Samoa's Opolu Island (in the wider vicinty of the now sunk HMNZS Manawanui) perhaps to provide a presence for the upcoming CHOGM meeting which HRH King Charles will be attending - and we will never know officially but I think we can deduce Manawanui's survey tasking are (were) of wider significance ...

The idea of leasing some surplus RN vessels is an interesting idea (although I will leave that to others to offer more qualified opinion on the merits or otherwise) and I suppose at least there wouldn't be a time consuming upgrade if for example a commercial vessel was acquired as a stop-gap from the second hand market?

The other lesson for our Govt to learn from this (apart from funding fit-for-purpose milspec vessels) is to stop scrimping on capabilities i.e. having an over reliance on the one particular vessel so if we can lease two then let's do so.

The Govt (DCP19) saw the value in acquiring a second sealift vessel but the same could also be said of the fleet oiler ...

 

[downunderblue]

I feel sorry for the crew atm. Many may not have been involved and only knew about it when the power dropped or when she hit the reef, but they all live now with a unfair target on their backs on the assumption that they stuffed up. I imagine many have a lot to say but now formally have to remain silent until interviewed or involved with the upcoming BoI. Amongst themselves they may feel immense shock, perceptions of blame or recrimination and a nation that is wanting answers, even though 99% of them knew nothing of the vessel prior to the news.

I feel for them, even if someone made a mistake. We all make mistakes, but this is a pretty unforgiving environment to make one. You wear that mantle though with your flag on your sleeve. You signed up voluntarily and know all your decisions will be questioned. Accountability is part of the job. Hopefully if a mistake is found (assuming it is) then it is understood in context, and isn't used for any competing agendas.

Public service is a tough job, and the longer you do it, the more chance some seemingly mitigated or managed risk ends up a complete mess. The adage '$hit happens' is real. Sometimes you just have to take it on the chin and wear it.

Again, it could be nothing to do with the crew so for my 2 cents I'd recommend we refrain from speculative conclusion in the interests of fairness (and justice) until all facts are presented. There is a time for judgment, but imo atm that can wait.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Hopefully when the dust settles there is serious consideration of the rnzn aquiring some form of modular pollution response capability or kit on a minor vessel/opv.

 

[Rob c]

Hopefully when the dust settles there is serious consideration of the rnzn aquiring some form of modular pollution response capability or kit on a minor vessel/opv.

Any such kit should be a government owned item for general use and not come out of a very tight Defence budget. After all this is the first ship lost by the navy in peacetime in its entire history, but there are non military sinkings far more frequently, so it needs to be a government responsibility.

 

[chis73]

Just a question:

Can someone please update me on the fate of the Rapid Environmental Assessment (REA) boats Takapu & Tarapunga (link), that entered service with the Navy in 2013? The ones that supposedly could be loaded on a Hercules and were designed to respond to just such an event as the sinking of the Manawanui. Are they still in service? No mention of them on the Navy website.