ADF General discussion thread

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
My experience was that the leadership I witnessed was good and you say the leadership you experienced was bad, crusty old Snr Ncos and upstart prats of officers.
My experience with leadership, during my time was excellent. NCO s were held accountable, very few people slipped through the system.
The two very bad examples were the junior officer who later became CO of 3RAR. He was definitely not a good leader, maybe a good tactician,but no leader.
The bad ones stuck out because they were rare. But at the same time they were often tolerated and protected.

You get an underperforming individual who has been promoted because of need and then demoted because of performance and / or behaviour multiple times. They will never be an RSM or a CO but they will be 2ICs, the senior enlisted in a sub unit, team leaders etc.

They are usually the ones with chips on their shoulders who see themselves as gatekeepers. They are the ones who feel threatened by dei, because they are already found wanting before the extra competition.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The bad ones stuck out because they were rare. But at the same time they were often tolerated and protected.

You get an underperforming individual who has been promoted because of need and then demoted because of performance and / or behaviour multiple times. They will never be an RSM or a CO but they will be 2ICs, the senior enlisted in a sub unit, team leaders etc.

They are usually the ones with chips on their shoulders who see themselves as gatekeepers. They are the ones who feel threatened by dei, because they are already found wanting before the extra competition.
Best person for the job, regardless of race, sexual orientation or gender, 100% the best candidate for the job.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some very interesting points are made in this video. I'm not sure how accurate the figures are, but maybe the Defence review could have been done differently. These are eye watering figures, particularly the Hawkei vehicles and the new C130J30s.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Some very interesting points are made in this video. I'm not sure how accurate the figures are, but maybe the Defence review could have been done differently. These are eye watering figures, particularly the Hawkei vehicles and the new C130J30s.
Interesting overview.
I don't claim to know or understand how defence finances work suffice to say they are big dollars.
No doubt much we would have done differently and much we possibly should do differently.
The challenge is however we just don't have that crystal ball to know what to prioritise.
Has armour had its day?
Do manned aircraft have a future?
Is the unmanned realm just a fad!

Where do we spend the coin and what do we prioritise.

The SSN quest is the one to watch.
Its attributes will / may come at the expense of the ADFs broad kit bag of response.

We will need to monitor this in the years and decades to come.


Cheers S
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Some very interesting points are made in this video. I'm not sure how accurate the figures are, but maybe the Defence review could have been done differently. These are eye watering figures, particularly the Hawkei vehicles and the new C130J30s.
He does miss some points on costings.

First up - I'm not a huge fan of Hawkei, but I get it the idea. A protected vehicle is so much better than using a G-wagon, especially when its just a small element (like a sub-unit HQ or similar). You can quibble about size and the dumbness is not fitting a spare to the vehicle (necessitating the trailer), but as a PMV-L it's perfectly fine. The issue about cost is harder though. Is it cheaper than a JLTV? Yes. But where does the money for a JLTV go? Oshkosh. Where does the money for a Hawkei go? Bendigo. The Treasury have found that for every dollar the government spends in Australia, they get $3-4 back in return as it moves through the system.

Does that mean we should just build Hawkei for no reason? No. We should look at minimum viable capability and stop there. But it does highlight another issue - why did the JLTV not select the Hawkei or the US Army the Bushmaster. And for that, we need to look further back The Bushmaster was the only truck capable of protected mobility being produced at scale when the US suddenly ID'd the need for one in AFG/Iraq. They came to us and ask for multiple thousands - and we said no. So they did their own. Sound familiar (looks at Nulka, Loyal Wingman, Wedgetail, etc)? If we had our act together back then, even providing them under license for production in the US, we'd be having a very different Hawkei chat.

Secondly, he has done the 100% amateur act of dividing the total project cost ($10b) by number of airframes (20) to say cost per airframe ($500m / C-130J). It's so wrong that almost anyone who has been in the area for longer than 6 weeks understands that the acquisition project buys more than major platforms. This $10b is adding to infrastructure, spares, radios, training, workforce...a whole bunch of stuff. I'm sorry, but anyone who does this simply cannot be taken seriously on any finance topic.

Other minor (it was minor until the 2025 onwards dumbness) quibbles:
- complaining that purchase in the early 2010s doesn't match current strategic view
- argument over the LHD has long gone, and the DSR's comments on small was not in relation to LHDs (and for combat ships has been disproven again),
- confusing the littoral craft with LHDs,
- in general arguing the LHDs have added very little capability to the ADF
- Growlers are too niche and not value for money (literally the only time I have heard that said, including from RAN and ARA peeps)
- no comments on the Land C4 projects?
- no critique of the F-35 purchase (despite not really being capable of combat yet and arguable too many, especially with their cost)
- misunderstanding of who pays what for cyber defence (it isn't all Defence)
- confusing Triton and Peregrine (they don't do similar roles, nor are they interchangeable)
- Ghost Bat....... hmmmm.....
- Upgrades/extensions can be acquisition or sustainment, it doesn't matter. There is no 'belong', it depends on the size and scope.
- There is no role for a MBT in a strategy of denial? FFS - this is a basic misunderstanding of their role. They are an essential contributor to such a strategy.... This here? This highlights the issue with amateurs talking about this stuff.

Overall, the focus on major platforms only misses much of the ways to look at costing. Remember, there are roughly 300-500 items in the IIP at any one stage - focusing on just these projects misses most of the discussion. It's a perfectly fine video with the usual ignorance of details and financial misunderstandings. Some of those are fine and understandable (especially more recent items noting the tighter control on public release), but some of the earlier stuff is either ignorant or show a lack of research. That, combined with the C-130J error, means it's simply not worth the time
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sydney members : Tri-service flypast over the harbour tomorrow (22/10/24) to mark the King's visit.
"The flypast will incorporate MH-60R “Romeo” and EC-135 helicopters from the Royal Australian Navy, UH-60M Black Hawk helicopters from the Australian Army, and an F/A-18F Super Hornet, EA-18G Growler, and two F-35A Lightning IIs from #AusAirForce.
The aircraft will fly across Sydney Harbour, travelling east to west, from HMAS Watson to Admiralty House.
22 October - Army and Navy helicopters at approximately 5:07pm. Air Force fast jets at approximately 5:20pm."
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
"The Australian Department of Defence announced the cancellation of its JP9102 military satellite program, an estimated $5 billion project awarded to Lockheed Martin just 18 months ago, citing shifts in satellite technology and the market’s pivot toward multi-orbit space communications. "
This is how the cancellation is being reported by SpaceNews. It will be interesting to see how much this project cancellation will cost the Defence Budget?
While it won't happen immediately, or even quickly, it also makes the terminals procured under JP2008 Phases 3H and 5B1 largely redundant as those terminals operate on commercial and WGS geosynchronous satellites. It would also mean a significant upgrade may be required to the SOTM (SATCOM on the Move) terminals provided under JP2072.
It will probably also affect the information systems used for C2, not only in sizing of the systems but also how they interconnect. Current DLANs are setup for a hub/spoke configuration. Changing times ahead for the communications fraternity.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
"The Australian Department of Defence announced the cancellation of its JP9102 military satellite program, an estimated $5 billion project awarded to Lockheed Martin just 18 months ago, citing shifts in satellite technology and the market’s pivot toward multi-orbit space communications. "
This is how the cancellation is being reported by SpaceNews. It will be interesting to see how much this project cancellation will cost the Defence Budget?
While it won't happen immediately, or even quickly, it also makes the terminals procured under JP2008 Phases 3H and 5B1 largely redundant as those terminals operate on commercial and WGS geosynchronous satellites. It would also mean a significant upgrade may be required to the SOTM (SATCOM on the Move) terminals provided under JP2072.
It will probably also affect the information systems used for C2, not only in sizing of the systems but also how they interconnect. Current DLANs are setup for a hub/spoke configuration. Changing times ahead for the communications fraternity.
I wonder what the shift in satellite technology is that’s taken place over the past 18 months. That would mean the requirement is replaced with another technology but this sounds like an exit with no replacement.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The decision has been specifically explained in terms of the capability being overtaken by events.

Ukraine in particular has shown how easy it is to degrade centralised capabilities and the benefits of agile swarms of alternatives.

Four large geosynchronous satellites, in the light of current and evolving anti satellite capabilities is just too risky. A swarm of smaller, individually cheaper, and easier to replace, low earth orbit satellites appears to be the best way forward.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
The decision has been specifically explained in terms of the capability being overtaken by events.

Ukraine in particular has shown how easy it is to degrade centralised capabilities and the benefits of agile swarms of alternatives.

Four large geosynchronous satellites, in the light of current and evolving anti satellite capabilities is just too risky. A swarm of smaller, individually cheaper, and easier to replace, low earth orbit satellites appears to be the best way forward.
True, which is why Australia needs to develop and support those homegrown companies and systems, while also tapping into the wider commercial sphere as well. The need for sovereign capabilities hasn't diminished (as has been identified with GWEO etc), in fact it is probably even more important now. Australia was the third or fourth country to launch a satellite (WRESAT) so we now need to rediscover our heritage and build on it.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Step it up: Trump 2.0 will expect increased defence spending

It will be interesting to see what the new US Trump administration thinks of our military investment program. I don't think he is going to like it.

Trump has been consistent in saying that states need to be bear the cost of their own defence and not rely on the US for free. He has been vocal that 2% is not enough, and 3% is expected for America to stay in the region.

$7 billion cancelled for the satellites to an American company is not going to be a good start.

I can see him moving his previous NATO retoric to focus on the SE Asian region, with all players (us, Japan, Philippines, Taiwan etc) expected to increase investment quickly, and to prioritise purchasing US equipment.

We might be pressured to increase our investment up over the 2.5% in the short term to prove our commitment for continued American support, and have a pathway to 3% in the medium term. If that occurs it would be interesting to see what our government puts on the table. An extra half percent spending equates to about $8billion per annum, its a lot.

I'm thinking an early target might be the US SSN program, perhaps a larger US manufacturing donation, maybe a faster development of Henderson/Osborne. Perhaps more Virginia hulls (a commitment to buy five rather than three).

Maybe we need to turn around an alternative to the satellites very quickly, supplied from an American company.

Another easy target might be more missiles, perhaps a procurement of more NASAMs perhaps even Patriot/Thaad. Or another large missile order for say ESSM, AMRAAM ER, AIM120 or PrSM. Or stand up the next ammunition factory/speed up the ones we have.

Perhaps even a commitment to a fourth F35 squadron, more hercs, helos, growlers or the like.

An extra GPF by 2029 would also go a long way to bridging the gap.

I doubt we will get away with lots of future long term commitments with little expenditure in the next four year period.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
The decision has been specifically explained in terms of the capability being overtaken by events.

Ukraine in particular has shown how easy it is to degrade centralised capabilities and the benefits of agile swarms of alternatives.

Four large geosynchronous satellites, in the light of current and evolving anti satellite capabilities is just too risky. A swarm of smaller, individually cheaper, and easier to replace, low earth orbit satellites appears to be the best way forward.
Don’t disagree but no word on an alternative….
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
"The Australian Department of Defence announced the cancellation of its JP9102 military satellite program, an estimated $5 billion project awarded to Lockheed Martin just 18 months ago, citing shifts in satellite technology and the market’s pivot toward multi-orbit space communications. "
This is how the cancellation is being reported by SpaceNews. It will be interesting to see how much this project cancellation will cost the Defence Budget?
While it won't happen immediately, or even quickly, it also makes the terminals procured under JP2008 Phases 3H and 5B1 largely redundant as those terminals operate on commercial and WGS geosynchronous satellites. It would also mean a significant upgrade may be required to the SOTM (SATCOM on the Move) terminals provided under JP2072.
It will probably also affect the information systems used for C2, not only in sizing of the systems but also how they interconnect. Current DLANs are setup for a hub/spoke configuration. Changing times ahead for the communications fraternity.
This is one of the dumbest decisions Australia could make. Everything Australia is planning over the next several decades is dependent on sending and receiving huge amounts of data and having secure communications. There is absolutely no guarantee that the US will even have the spare bandwidth for their own needs let alone accommodating Australia.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is one of the dumbest decisions Australia could make. Everything Australia is planning over the next several decades is dependent on sending and receiving huge amounts of data and having secure communications. There is absolutely no guarantee that the US will even have the spare bandwidth for their own needs let alone accommodating Australia.
Reliably receiving is the key, if you have a handfull of vulnerable satellites that will be taken down on day one, you don't have a capability.

Something I've noticed in the last couple of years is nothing is announced as it being worked on, it's announced when it's done.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
"The Australian Department of Defence announced the cancellation of its JP9102 military satellite program, an estimated $5 billion project awarded to Lockheed Martin just 18 months ago, citing shifts in satellite technology and the market’s pivot toward multi-orbit space communications. "
This is how the cancellation is being reported by SpaceNews. It will be interesting to see how much this project cancellation will cost the Defence Budget?
While it won't happen immediately, or even quickly, it also makes the terminals procured under JP2008 Phases 3H and 5B1 largely redundant as those terminals operate on commercial and WGS geosynchronous satellites. It would also mean a significant upgrade may be required to the SOTM (SATCOM on the Move) terminals provided under JP2072.
It will probably also affect the information systems used for C2, not only in sizing of the systems but also how they interconnect. Current DLANs are setup for a hub/spoke configuration. Changing times ahead for the communications fraternity.
Don't know if this is in any way related but this launch was couched in secrecy.
Rumoured to be an Australian military Satellite:
Screenshot 2024-11-20 at 19.53.30.png

 
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TD7/Optus-X confirmed as a defence asset.

“The satellite is an important element of Defence’s assured access to space-enabled communications,” a Defence spokesperson said in a statement to iTnews.


“It will complement our future multi-orbit satellite capabilities to be delivered under project JP9102.”
Ref: iTnews
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Don't know if this is in any way related but this launch was couched in secrecy.
Rumoured to be an Australian military Satellite:
View attachment 52022

In which case it is a replacement for the Optus C1D satellite. Optus owned and operated but with a Defence package hosted. Nothing secretive about that. However looking at the Optus fleet the orbital positions range from 152E to 164E (D2 @ 152E, C1D & D3 @ 156E, D1 @ 160E, 10 @ 164E). From memory C1D hosted the Defence X band package. C1D having been launched in 2004 would be close to the end of its operational life (or exceeded it design life, usually 15 years). Defence SATCOM has moved away from Ku to X and Ka (although Ku can be used sometimes) usually provided on WGS.
WGS 6 (largely funded by ADF) is located at 135W but the MoU provides ADF access to other WGS satellites if possible.

SpaceflightNow.com reported that the orbital position for this Optus-X would be 88E (according to comments from Intelsat to US FCC asking for an special temporay authority [STA] in order to support initial on-orbit checkout). This orbital position starts to make the "Optus" claim look suspect.
 
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