ADF General discussion thread

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In war time, yep, multiple airstrips and fuel farms dispersion is definitely the way to go, as well as having the infrastructure in place, ready to build them.
In peace time, it's never going to happen.
Yes 324 km between RAAF Darwin and Tindal, who will maintain these in peace time?
That's the thing, it's tropical, things grow. Fast.
It's dusty.....very dusty in the dry.
What does Australia have, or will Australia have to intercept a nuke?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would consider, hmmm....., three things.

1. What is the status of technology for medium range SAMs/ABM? ie, if we buy something today, how much life has that got against a threat that is rapidly evolving? And if the answer is not much, how far away is the tech that can cope with those threats? If both answers are a handful of years, why buy now? Remember the Government's direction about MOTS/COTS and Australian modifications.

2. What are the production lines like? Noting there are currently at least three countries (two in a shooting war) that use the same/similar weapons to what could fulfil ADF requirements, how long until we get a weapon? And, if the answer is a few years, see (1).

3. What are we defending? There are very few single points of failure within Australia, and when you compare the beating that British, German and Japanese cities took in the 40s and kept on operating, what exactly are we defending? And what is the actual cost of defending those areas?

There seems a really bizarre thinking of IADS in and out of uniform. Cruise missiles aren't magical beasties, you need dozens and dozens to hit and destroy targets that are defended by Syrian air defence, let alone anything modern. Even then, generally speaking, they are no bigger than a Mk 84 bomb. They'll shred what they hit, but the cant do much around that. Look at how hard NATO worked to design weapons to kill airfields, because a bunch of HE won't do it. Further to that, SAMs are part of the answer. At the moment, we have SM-2, F-35, F/A-18E, EA-18G, E-7, eNASAMS, 30/35 mm, EW, ISR and a whole bunch of other stuff that helps shape our response. It's about layers, and we have a bunch that is getting better and better and being integrated. Could we do with more layers? Hell yes. Let me add that to the list of things we could do with more of...

All of that assumes that killing incoming is the answer. There are other answers too. Why not distributed airfields and likely targets? Hitting two fuel tanks on RAAF Darwin is easy? Fine, make 40 tanks that are 5 km of either side of the Stuart Highway between RAAF Darwin and Humpty Doo. That's nearly 400 sq km - good luck getting a raid big enough to kit them all. Make more runways, comms nodes, hospitals. Find the single point targets and duplicate. Remember how hard it was to kill a Syrian airfield, now kill 4. Or 5. There are 324 km between RAAF Darwin and RAAF Tindal - how many rudimentary airfields can be made within 25 km of the highway? Hell, within 100 km of the highway? Concrete is cheap, make them all match RAAF Darwin's runway, have a pre-sited area for a truck with ATC arrive, have hardened comms nodes and some hardstanding to temporarily hold some civilian fuel tankers and hey presto - a good enough for war site. Apply that across those critical points and guess what, you now have national resilience. There is only one power station in Darwin? Make 3. Have Defence pay half. Now it doesn't matter if Cyclone XXX or a H-6 raid comes over, Darwin has power.

Like I said, IAMD simultaneously bewilders and amuses me. When you factor in the the tech required, its capabilities and what people claim they want protected, it pretty much makes Attack SSKs look cheap. The harsh reality is that Australian soil will be struck, Australian civilians will be killed. We need to start having that discussion to start building national reliance. And the most horrible thing? Some of those casualties will be from Australian ordnance falling back to earth...
The concept of distributed airfields was used in northern Australia during WW2.
Over 40 airfields were built along the northern Stuart Highway (between Alice Springs and Darwin) from 1942 onwards.

 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
The”official” reason given during Senate Estimates in June, is “long lead times” meaning there is is no benefit to ordering now, which is why it will be revisited in 2 years time (aka NDS 2026),

I assume from this, they were only considering Patriot / LTAMDS. Would there be ”long lead times” for SAMP-T or Israel‘s ‘David’s Sling’ of the 3 main Western Medium Ranged AD systems?

Not according to publicly accessible defence news sources… ;)
But wouldn’t the lead time if ordered 2 years later…just add 2 years to the lead time? Dont we just get in the queue and hope the demands prompts an increase in production.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
But wouldn’t the lead time if ordered 2 years later…just add 2 years to the lead time? Dont we just get in the queue and hope the demands prompts an increase in production.
I suspect, as do most this “excuse” is simply a convenient spin on a lack of authority from Government to go and spend the funds. Of course there is a long lead time, with acquiring complex SAM systems. How could there not be? But we haven’t even got to the point of a formal Letter of Request for such systems, so the reality is we don’t even truly know. Nor have we truly explored any other system (such as SAMP-T or David’s Sling for instance) which doesn’t seem to lave long lead time production issues, which shows how invested we really are in the idea. There are solutions available, but the program has just been canned, but defence officials are not allowed to admit such, for some reason.

A reoccurring theme in modern Australian defence…
 
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