Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Armchair

Well-Known Member
I’m don’t understand how that 15% of all crews is possible?

30 boats
Crew of 132
30 x 132 = 3960 crew.
3960 x .15 = 594 crew.

Has the RAN got that many submariners? And assuming we do how many does that leave to crew the remaining Collins?
it is this meaning if you join the RAN over the next 10 years as a submariner your probably heading to USN boat?
Answer to the last question would seem a definite “yes” (though I imagine many will serve on RN vessels too).
The other part of AUKUS is operation of USN and RN submarines from WA during the period before RAN Virginias are available in the 2030s to cover for limitations in Australian capability. In other words, the RAN submariners in the USN and RN won’t just be training and fulfilling functions for their host navies - many of them will be directly contributing to Australian defence (albeit not on vessels commissioned into their own navy as Australian governments neglected to build them).
My guess is that conventional submarines (whether that be Collins LOTE, or some other option advocated) are going to struggle to deliver the required capability for the RAN (operating at long distance from Australia in zones that will be extremely hazardous to surface ships) in the next few years.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Isn’t the PWR3 basically a British clone of the S9G or is it significantly different?
There have been a number of articles stating that the PWR3 uses a lot of S9G technology including convective cooling. I think the major difference is that the S9G has all the peripheral plumbing shaped to fit the Virginia class hull diameter whereas the PWR3 is designed for the Dreadnought class which has a larger diameter. It’s unknown in the public domain whether it’s practical to redesign the PWR3 peripherals to fit in a narrower hull.

The two main design criteria for SSN AUKUS submarine diameter is what is required for the reactor and the vertical launch payload tubes.
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Isn’t the PWR3 basically a British clone of the S9G or is it significantly different?
The UK PWR3 is based on lessons from the US S9G reactor, but it is not the same. It contains US technology but at least in terms of dimensions and capacity they are different. The US S9G is 210 MW and can fit into a 10.36 metre beam Virginia hull.

The PWR3 power is unstated and is fitted into a Dreadnought hull (12.8 metre beam). The SSN(R) / SSN AUKUS hull is reportedly bigger than the Astute hull (beam 11.9 metres) which is already bigger than a Virginia hull.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Maybe a 12-24 month lease with crew might be helpful.
Recruitment and strike action are 2 of the reasons given for them being laid up, the UK may noy be in any position to offer any such lease or once these problems are fixed may not want to lease it out.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Potentially. I know the strike action is about salary, so that's always negotiable for an overseas contract. Alternatively we could dry lease one of their mothballed sister ships and lean on say Teekay, who do some other staffing arrangements for the RAN, to provide a crew.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Potentially. I know the strike action is about salary, so that's always negotiable for an overseas contract. Alternatively we could dry lease one of their mothballed sister ships and lean on say Teekay, who do some other staffing arrangements for the RAN, to provide a crew.
Teekay operate MV Sycamore which is an aviation training ship, don't think they'd have to the skill base to operate an AOR as that's a very different (and niche) skillset to provide the RAN (and allied navies by extension).
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
Teekay run a lot of commercial ships, specialising in tankers. Admittedly mostly are overseas based, but I would think they would have the capability to recruit, crew and manage a tanker for Australia. Australian maritime law applies regulation to overseas crews working in Australia, however this mostly relates to salary and conditions and it's not uncommon in the broader industry.

The equivalent ships in the UK and USN are civilian crewed, so I don't see this as a big step for Australia, particularly on a temporary basis. There are small military contingents onboard, but mostly for force protection, aviation duties and the like.

Perhaps they might need some skill support for RAS evolutions, but for the most part the complicated bit is on the receiving ship end, not the tanker.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There’s the small problem that AMSA has no involvement with Naval personnel, or vessels after they are commissioned; but are involved in the regulation and supervision of merchant vessels and sailors. Undoubtedly could be overcome, but probably not overnight.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member

SEA 3000 offerings, according to ADM.

Navantia - based off Avante 2200 corvette (Al Jubail class - Saudi Arabia)
TKMS - derivative of MEKO A200 (Al Aziz class - Egypt)
Hanwha - Daegu FFX batch II
Hyundai - Chungnam FFX batch III
Mitsubishi - New FFM or Mogami.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
SEA 3000 offerings, according to ADM.

Navantia - based off Avante 2200 corvette (Al Jubail class - Saudi Arabia)
TKMS - derivative of MEKO A200 (Al Aziz class - Egypt)
Hanwha - Daegu FFX batch II
Hyundai - Chungnam FFX batch III
Mitsubishi - New FFM or Mogami.
Little bit there, That Korea is not a cohesive whole nation offer, but an offer from the two different and warring companies, Hyundai and Hanwha that are involved in a legal fight. It was the Australians that lumped them together in and internal document that was then quoted and republished externally.

Also the 2 key seemed to get suck on the Navantia offer, referring it as 2220.. While a capable ship, particularly in air defence for such a small platform, it doesn't exactly have a lot of ASW capability. The saudis aren't chasing subs with these. Also the build is a little cold now, the last ship was launched in 2021 and delivered may 2024. Signed for in 2018. So existing contracts are a bit cold, and you would basically have to retender/quote/contract everything. Not dead cold, but not hot either. I would imagine we aren't interested in Saudis doing fitouts either.

TKMS - I've heard we would get literally the same ship down to the paint. Not sure how we feel about Exocet and VL MICA. But does have towed array and MU90. May be the easiest to retrofit Anzac radar mast and combat systems into if we wanted that. While the first ships may arrive with VL Mica, I would imagine it would be possible to swap them out in a few years time. I think TKMS and Meko is thought of quite favorably as a the anzac build, and capabilities were pretty good considering it was meant to be a small cheap ship, that had a very hard life and had a lot of capability welded onto it. But Australia isn't Egypt and I think the spec is just not a great fit. Also the last of the german built ships is already launched and well through fitting out. So again, things are getting cold, windows are closing, a lot of contracting/pricing from scratch would need to happen. But we have been down this road, probably our biggest learn is that the ships were too small for the growth we wanted.

The article does point out that its a government project, not a navy or defence project. Everything is going to be focused on timeframes, delivery, risk, cost etc. Ship spec and capabilities are not going to be a focus. Things like local build, we will probably just have to take on good faith. However, to be fair, I think all four options would genuinely try to support things there. Navantia and TKMS have experience, and the Koreans and Japanese, I think are keen to show capability in that space. Not just french us.

The Korean and Japanese projects seem to be right in the sweet spot in terms of acquisition and build, with their existing projects wrapping up and their evolutions just getting underway. Both have tremendous build capability, and can probably give up slots for their existing Navy if they really wanted.

But in saying that, things can change rapidly. If North Korea fires missiles, China flexes, shooting starts Korea and Japan could withdraw. Germany/Spain could announce a crash build program due to developments in Europe or as a result of elections.

I imagine one build will be selected, and the other will be a backup. Europe/Asia. It isn't even a first second third type ranking.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Little bit there, That Korea is not a cohesive whole nation offer, but an offer from the two different and warring companies, Hyundai and Hanwha that are involved in a legal fight. It was the Australians that lumped them together in and internal document that was then quoted and republished externally.

Also the 2 key seemed to get suck on the Navantia offer, referring it as 2220.. While a capable ship, particularly in air defence for such a small platform, it doesn't exactly have a lot of ASW capability. The saudis aren't chasing subs with these. Also the build is a little cold now, the last ship was launched in 2021 and delivered may 2024. Signed for in 2018. So existing contracts are a bit cold, and you would basically have to retender/quote/contract everything. Not dead cold, but not hot either. I would imagine we aren't interested in Saudis doing fitouts either.

TKMS - I've heard we would get literally the same ship down to the paint. Not sure how we feel about Exocet and VL MICA. But does have towed array and MU90. May be the easiest to retrofit Anzac radar mast and combat systems into if we wanted that. While the first ships may arrive with VL Mica, I would imagine it would be possible to swap them out in a few years time. I think TKMS and Meko is thought of quite favorably as a the anzac build, and capabilities were pretty good considering it was meant to be a small cheap ship, that had a very hard life and had a lot of capability welded onto it. But Australia isn't Egypt and I think the spec is just not a great fit. Also the last of the german built ships is already launched and well through fitting out. So again, things are getting cold, windows are closing, a lot of contracting/pricing from scratch would need to happen. But we have been down this road, probably our biggest learn is that the ships were too small for the growth we wanted.

The article does point out that its a government project, not a navy or defence project. Everything is going to be focused on timeframes, delivery, risk, cost etc. Ship spec and capabilities are not going to be a focus. Things like local build, we will probably just have to take on good faith. However, to be fair, I think all four options would genuinely try to support things there. Navantia and TKMS have experience, and the Koreans and Japanese, I think are keen to show capability in that space. Not just french us.

The Korean and Japanese projects seem to be right in the sweet spot in terms of acquisition and build, with their existing projects wrapping up and their evolutions just getting underway. Both have tremendous build capability, and can probably give up slots for their existing Navy if they really wanted.

But in saying that, things can change rapidly. If North Korea fires missiles, China flexes, shooting starts Korea and Japan could withdraw. Germany/Spain could announce a crash build program due to developments in Europe or as a result of elections.

I imagine one build will be selected, and the other will be a backup. Europe/Asia. It isn't even a first second third type ranking.
IMO, does look like it’s down to 3.
Hyundai-Chungnam, Mitsubishi-Mogami or FFM.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Little bit there, That Korea is not a cohesive whole nation offer, but an offer from the two different and warring companies, Hyundai and Hanwha that are involved in a legal fight. It was the Australians that lumped them together in and internal document that was then quoted and republished externally.

Also the 2 key seemed to get suck on the Navantia offer, referring it as 2220.. While a capable ship, particularly in air defence for such a small platform, it doesn't exactly have a lot of ASW capability. The saudis aren't chasing subs with these. Also the build is a little cold now, the last ship was launched in 2021 and delivered may 2024. Signed for in 2018. So existing contracts are a bit cold, and you would basically have to retender/quote/contract everything. Not dead cold, but not hot either. I would imagine we aren't interested in Saudis doing fitouts either.

TKMS - I've heard we would get literally the same ship down to the paint. Not sure how we feel about Exocet and VL MICA. But does have towed array and MU90. May be the easiest to retrofit Anzac radar mast and combat systems into if we wanted that. While the first ships may arrive with VL Mica, I would imagine it would be possible to swap them out in a few years time. I think TKMS and Meko is thought of quite favorably as a the anzac build, and capabilities were pretty good considering it was meant to be a small cheap ship, that had a very hard life and had a lot of capability welded onto it. But Australia isn't Egypt and I think the spec is just not a great fit. Also the last of the german built ships is already launched and well through fitting out. So again, things are getting cold, windows are closing, a lot of contracting/pricing from scratch would need to happen. But we have been down this road, probably our biggest learn is that the ships were too small for the growth we wanted.

The article does point out that its a government project, not a navy or defence project. Everything is going to be focused on timeframes, delivery, risk, cost etc. Ship spec and capabilities are not going to be a focus. Things like local build, we will probably just have to take on good faith. However, to be fair, I think all four options would genuinely try to support things there. Navantia and TKMS have experience, and the Koreans and Japanese, I think are keen to show capability in that space. Not just french us.

The Korean and Japanese projects seem to be right in the sweet spot in terms of acquisition and build, with their existing projects wrapping up and their evolutions just getting underway. Both have tremendous build capability, and can probably give up slots for their existing Navy if they really wanted.

But in saying that, things can change rapidly. If North Korea fires missiles, China flexes, shooting starts Korea and Japan could withdraw. Germany/Spain could announce a crash build program due to developments in Europe or as a result of elections.

I imagine one build will be selected, and the other will be a backup. Europe/Asia. It isn't even a first second third type ranking.
Not sure I fully understand the concept of "No Design Changes".

If we are basing the Avante 3000 on the Avante 2200 then we are by definition making design changes.

Also it seems to ignore the fact that the MEKO A200 is a modular design. My understanding of modular design is you have a basic hull and you add your own choice of command and control, weapons, equipment and sensors. Doesn't sound a lot different to the upgrades we performed on our own ANZACs. It should also be remembered that the ANZAC design was selected in 1989 and the lead ship was commissioned in 1996. That was only 7 years with an Australian build. You could probably shave off a year or two with an overseas build.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I agree hauritz, I don't get how the Navantia bid works under the no design changes, because by its very nature it needs to change. Unless they are offering the corvette A2200 design rather than the A3000.

And, if they get a free card to offer a modified design, why don't the others.

One thought that came to mind that might be useful is to have the ships fitted for but not with (a dirty word I know but bear with me) for the systems that are not ideal for us.

For example we could look at the meko offering without the mica VLS or exocet, but with the space and weight for them. We then have a stand alone contract after delivery to fit mk41 and NSM. The ships get commissioned on the tempo expected and could be used immediately (albeit with some warfighting limitations) and then sent in for a fitout some time after.

This is not too different to the Japanese strategy of receiving their Mogamis without the VLS and fitting it later.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not sure I fully understand the concept of "No Design Changes".
Well this isn't normal procurement. Defence and Navy are out on the sidelines, effectively they are spectators, like the rest of us. They may be asked specific questions as experts, but they aren't running the procurement.

So now you have team, made up of politician, an accountant, several lawyers, aids, advisors etc running the procurement. These people aren't going to be re-specing ships to meet any sort of Navy or defence preference. They have no expertise or knowledge in that area, they have been told by navy that all four are acceptable. Any changes would be the on the supplier. There isn't any Australian "push" or "pull" for systems or equipment.

This is very odd.

This means the manufacturer would be basically completely on the hook for everything. Those firms better go talk to finance and their governments about backing them on this project.

Now with Navantia in particular, it isn't super clear, what they are offering, we have some public statements, we have the defence advice on what they looked at, but that isn't a locked in proposal.

With the Avante 3000. They would have to be basically ready to cut steal. Not just propose it. Get some more money, design it, engineer it. But we don't know what they know. Maybe the saudis were interested in this design, and everything was ready to go and they just haven't pulled the trigger on it. From what we can tell from the outside, it isn't part of an existing build program of a nation. Parts haven't already be priced, ordered, with delivery windows locked in with manufacturers.

Same with TKMS, what exactly would we get? It is modular. But what do they have in their existing build inventory that can accelerate the project. The ships might not get built with any VL, and perhaps combat system wise, there isn't a big difference for them with 9lVvs others etc.

For the overseas build we need something basically ready we can go, and hopefully push in front of or in the middle of. Which means contracts for those ships and equipment are probably already spec'd, signed, costed and paid for.

Japan has basically said that it would government to government the overseas build ships. Like the USN does with the F-18 Super-hornets. We can take their build slot, its passed on to the original customer, then transferred from that customer to the final customer.

For lawyers, accountants and politicians, this is going to make it very, very attractive. Which is what Korean sources are saying, it has nothing to do with the platforms. Its the Team Japan deal they are offering, which even the Koreans can see, is a heck of a deal, and something perhaps they should look at in the future, a Team Korea. With government facilitating, rather than corporate box flogging trying to make money on business deals.

This is some pretty big pressure on this. Because perhaps, the US Constellation project may go belly up. Americans are now looking in and seeing what is on the table.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
Well this isn't normal procurement. Defence and Navy are out on the sidelines, effectively they are spectators, like the rest of us. They may be asked specific questions as experts, but they aren't running the procurement.
I don’t think that is an apt description of the process.
The ADM article says
*******
The overall Sea 3000 project is still in its early phases with the initial ATM yet to formally close. When it does, according to testimony by Defence officials in Senate Estimates, Defence will begin a process to determine which tenders are viable before moving forward to a down select later this year.

“We need to prove which are viable and which are non-viable, and the viable ones would then be put to government for a decision,” First Assistant Secretary Lutz said.

ADM understands that once the down select is made, the program is expected to relax its aversion to transparency to an extent and move forward - as a normal RAN acquisition program.
*****
(edit to include original link for quoted material)
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
For example we could look at the meko offering without the mica VLS or exocet, but with the space and weight for them. We then have a stand alone contract after delivery to fit mk41 and NSM. The ships get commissioned on the tempo expected and could be used immediately (albeit with some warfighting limitations) and then sent in for a fitout some time after.
If Australia were to select a design fitted with VL MICA and it's VLS, I rather doubt that replacing it with a Mk 41 VLS would be an option, as I suspect the physical space required for a Mk 41 VLS is different, and I also suspect that an 8-cell Mk 41 VLS quad-packed with ESSM or ESSM Block II would be potentially quite a bit greater.

The size and performance of VL MICA roughly in the same class as Sea Ceptor, so we are talking about something quite a bit smaller/lesser displacement than ESSM. Having looked at descriptions of the examples of MEKO A200 designs, they all mention VLS for air defence missiles and missiles about the size/capability of Sea Ceptor or VL MICA, but none of them mention that the VLS fitted is a Mk 41.

Depending on where the VL MICA VLS is actually fitted, it might be possible for there to be redesign and modification work done to fit a Mk 41 VLS once the design is in service, but I suspect it would not be a trivial matter if done. OTOH, if the VL MICA is fitted well above the waterline (which it might be, if the physical space required by the VLS is small and since the missiles themselves are only ~112 kg each) then trying to replace it with a Mk 41 would trigger topweight issues like the ANZAC-class frigates experienced.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I sincerely hope the decision makers are having a close look at the Arafura program.

Yes, defence specified SAAB 9Lv but as I understand it, that system has not been the issue, as SAAB have done there usual workmanship job of doing and delivering, what they are paid to, without fuss. Note, this was also the case with the LHDs we never hear of any issues with the Australian specified CMS.

The build went very well by all accounts, not surprising with the workforce coming off the AWD build.

The issue, as I see it, has been the assumption by CoA that Lurssen had a handle on everything else, and Lurssen assuming the CoA was doing it. Civmec have been left so unimpressed they are apparently not bothering with bidding for defence work again.

I hope the decision makers are looking at best value for money and lowest risk through a lens of knowing who the best operators are. We would be stupid not to engage SAAB, CAE and other proven partners on this. The more talent and experienced eyes we have worked with before, the lower the risk of working with a new designer.
 
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