The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I don't understand what you are talking about. Entire regions are turning into war zones because Russians are attacking. The region in Ukraine south of Belgorod has always been a war zone. The whole region from Sumy to Kupiansk has been under constant shelling since the invasion began. Russians are killing Ukrainians everyday. Why would Ukrainians care about Russian lives? War doesn't obey to the moral logic. Russians bombard Kharkiv. Ukrainians bombard Belgorod. This is the logic of war.
You're conflating several different things. The region from Kupyansk to Sumy was almost completely quiet until the last set of major raids across the border last year. Since then there have been some cross border fires, but Russian strikes were mainly limited long range strikes against strategic targets. This is completely different from the current situation where Russia is focusing very heavily on the immediate front line area near the border, and hitting it hard with air and artillery. It's one thing if Russia does the occasional SEAD mission, or hits a warehouse or powerplant somewhere in Kharkov. It's another thing if your tiny village eats 20+ FABs and several hundred artillery shells because Ukrainian forces used it as a staging area to raid into Russia. Ukraine didn't have to evacuate this area until fairly recently. There is a clear escalation in the damage to Ukrainian border areas that has come during and after the attempted offensive into Belgorod region. Claiming nothing has changed is simply not correct.

On to the moral dimension. Clearly the increase in fighting in this area has increased the negative impact to local civilians. This is what I'm pointing out. You continuously try to draw an equals sign between Russian strikes into Ukraine and Ukrainian shelling of Belgorod. I firmly disagree with this. Russian long range strikes are conducted using PGMs and have shown to generally target legitimate military targets. They're hitting military-industrial facilities, bridges, powerplants, SAM sites, and suspected military storage and staging areas. They don't always get it right, and sometimes the activities of Ukrainian air defenses contribute to Russian inbounds hitting residential areas or civilian infrastructure (consider the case of the Kh-22 which collapsed a residential apartment building in Dnepropetrovsk). This is radically different from indiscriminantly lobbing MLRS packets into a densely populated urban area full of civilians, with no clear military targets in sight. The potential existence of such targets somewhere and around Belgorod doesn't justify that. We've looked at impact patterns of Ukrainian Grad/Vampir/Uragan packets where they landed inside Belgorod and they clearly weren't even targetting a specific structure or buiding complex. It's a packet of unguided and not particularly accurate munitions casually tossed into the middle of a densely populated city with heavy civilian traffic. This is absolutely not the same as a downed Russian PGM hitting a residential building by accident. There is a major difference of intent here.

I forgot who said that, but it was a prominent western diplomat (Josep Borel or somebody of that tenure) who said about the Belgorod events that whatever happens, Russia bears the responsibility because they started it. If Ukraine fires rockets at downtown Belgorod and civilians died as a result, Russia is responsible for that because they started the conflict.
My opinion of politicians in general isn't very high. From where I sit he's worse then the average. My interpretation of his statement is this: no matter how badly Ukraine acts, the west will do their best to close their eyes to it.

It's of course never a good thing to target civilians but the aggressor country is always the aggressor country. Putin withdraws his troop today and from tomorrow on about 300 lives are saved every day. Why doesn't he do that? About 300 persons die everyday (about 296 or 297 soldiers from both sides and 3 or 4 civilians from both sides but mostly Ukrainians). So nobody cares about a few casualties in Belgorod. Neither Ukrainians nor the Russians. Compared to the horror of the war brought by the Russians, rockets on Belgorod are a non event.
If the Russian leadership cared about people in Belgorod they would withdraw from Ukraine, stop bombing Ukrainian cities and seek peace. As simple as that.
Clearly he doesn't do that because he doesn't want to withdraw from Ukraine. I'm not sure what the confusion here is. Countries are complex structures with multiple overlapping goals and priorities. If Russia didn't care about the civilians in Belgorod, why would they rebase air defenses there to intercept Ukrainian inbounds? Russia clearly cares, just not enough to give up on their entire war effort.

I also don't understand what you mean by hiding troops near residential buildings. Should they leave their military hardware in open fields so that Russians can shoot at them more easily? Ukrainians has always asked resident to evacuate war zones. If people stay because they are waiting for the Russians, then it's already not their problem. And the same happens on the Russian side. You think Russians don't hide behind civilian houses?
There was a clear pattern in the first ~6 months of the war of Ukraine actively hiding combat vehicles in urban areas that were still densely populated. This took place across a wide variety of areas from Severodonetsk to Mariupol' to Odessa to Kiev. Ukrainian officials in some cases dishonestly claimed that Russia hit civilian objects of no military value, like the shopping center in Kiev, only to later be revealed as liars when the shopping center was shown to have housed artillery pieces and munitions in its covered parking area. This is what I mean when I say they were hiding troops.

Ukrainians have sometimes asked residents to evacuate, more so lately then in that first part of the war.

Do you have proof of Russian troops intentionally hiding from Ukrainian forces in densenly populated urban areas? What would they even be hiding from? In Ukraine's case they were hiding from Russian air power primarily (I include long range missiles under this). Are there Russian tanks and artillery actively hiding behind populated buildings in Donetsk?

When Mariupol was besieged, how could civilians leave the city? If they could, it wouldn't be called a siege. Russian didn't have to besiege Mariupol in the first place. They shouldn't have come to Ukraine at all. They shouldn't have shelled the city. They should have let people in peace.
Russia provided corridors for civilians to exit. We have had testimony from civilians that Ukrainian military personnel prevented them from using them, in some cases firing on civilians. You can disbelieve the claims I guess, but this is what I'm referring to. Feel free to go back to the earlier parts of this thread where much of this material was covered.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I do not have to research far to find evidence of deliberate Russian bombing of a civilian area that had signage on the roof of this, its beyond mischievous to say both sides do this
Certainly Russia went to some lengths to cover this up as documented here
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I do not have to research far to find evidence of deliberate Russian bombing of a civilian area that had signage on the roof of this, its beyond mischievous to say both sides do this
Certainly Russia went to some lengths to cover this up as documented here
While Russia disputes this claim, personally I find the Amnesty International investigation (as to fault) convincing. From where I sit, barring some drastic facts that we're not privy to, this distinctly constitutes a Russian war crime. This stands in stark contrast to the hospital strike mentioned in one of the articles you linked, where BDA footage showed military vehicles parked right in front of the hospital and offers some corroboration of Russian claims that the hospital was being used as some sort of a staging area by Ukrainian forces. However this is generally an exception rather then a rule. We don't see a consistent pattern by Russia of hitting civilian targets intentionally and repeatedly. Ukraine has pummeled Belgorod with strikes over and over and over again, mostly without any specific targets, firing mainly Vampir/Grad/Uragan systems, inherently not very accurate weapons designed to cover a large area. Moreover, as always, two wrongs don't make a right. Even were the argument that "Ukraine is only doing what Russia is" true, it still wouldn't excuse or justify their behavior. But again, I don't believe we have an idential situation here.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
This is completely different from the current situation where Russia is focusing very heavily on the immediate front line area near the border, and hitting it hard with air and artillery. It's one thing if Russia does the occasional SEAD mission, or hits a warehouse or powerplant somewhere in Kharkov. It's another thing if your tiny village eats 20+ FABs and several hundred artillery shells because Ukrainian forces used it as a staging area to raid into Russia.
I agree. For the locals it's not nice. But for the entire Ukraine, statistically, it doesn't change much, if anything.
Russians are throwing at Ukraine everything they have, in the maximum quantities, with no limitation or restraint, anyway. What they throw at the northern border region is what they will not throw elsewhere.
The soldiers who now have to protect the border there are soldiers who won't be dispatched inside Ukraine.

Ukrainians decided to open a new front there. This is military strategy. Attacking the enemy on their own land is a perfectly valid strategy. In this case Russian certainly didn't expect that.
My guess is that Ukrainians will soon bombard Kursk with long range drones in the same manner as on Belgorod. Maybe not as intensively because of the distance. Of course it will depend on the means available to them, but I think that they would do it.

They don't have much ground forces available for attacks deep inside Russia. But should they have some, it would not be stupid to assault Belgorod and occupy it temporarily. This would force Russians to return to their own country to liberate the town.

Feanor said:
You continuously try to draw an equals sign between Russian strikes into Ukraine and Ukrainian shelling of Belgorod.
No. I'm saying that they are 100 or 1000 times worse. Not equal. Moreover, Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is defending itself.

It doesn't matter that Russians try to strike only military or industrial or strategic targets. (I don't believe it's true but, let's assume it is.)
None of these targets are legitimate because Russia doesn't have the right to destroy targets in Ukraine.
They know that they put civilian lives at risk. But even when they don't hurt civilians, it's still criminal to do it.

Firing at a vehicle belonging to the Ukrainian defence ministry is a criminal offense in Ukraine, even when the vehicle is parked in from of an hospital. And even if the said hospital has been converted into a military barrack.
Criminals who did it should be charged with murder or attempted murder and destruction of material amid other related charges.

Yet, Ukraine has the right to bomb Russia because it's attacked by Russia.
Putin is bragging about everything being fine in Russia and that Ukrainians being poor sobs unable to defend themselves. By shelling Belgorod daily, Ukrainians just show Russian people that he is wrong and give them the taste of his own medicine.

If they are killing civilians in Russia, it's of course criminal. But, yes, as long as there is a much worse evil, we are turning a blind eye.
Eventually, after the war, if Russia is willing to come back to the civilised world, we will discuss crimes committed by Ukrainians against civilians. Perhaps already during war reparation talks. After WW2, The Allies decided not to ask war reparations from Germany because Germans had suffered enough like this. A similar consideration could be brought up to reduce the war reparations Russia will have to pay. Thought the reduction will not be that important because it has to be proportional.

But as long as the war is going on it's out of question.

You said:
Russia clearly cares, just not enough to give up on their entire war effort.
Then, they shouldn't complain that rockets and drones fall on Belgorod. They just get what they asked for.
Didn't they?

You said:
There was a clear pattern in the first ~6 months of the war of Ukraine actively hiding combat vehicles in urban areas that were still densely populated. This took place across a wide variety of areas from Severodonetsk to Mariupol' to Odessa to Kiev. Ukrainian officials in some cases dishonestly claimed that Russia hit civilian objects of no military value, like the shopping center in Kiev, only to later be revealed as liars when the shopping center was shown to have housed artillery pieces and munitions in its covered parking area.
Yes. Of course. Still, it was not criminal for the Ukrainian army to hide combat vehicles in urban areas and ammunitions in shopping malls as long as they do it in their own country. They have the right to do it if they like it.
In my country, we often see military convoys and, one time, there were blockposts inside urban areas (thought not inside the town for practical reasons) as military drills. I imagine that in a real war situation against Russia, these units will be placed in similar locations.
Nothing illegal or immoral about it.

Yet, it was criminal for the Russians to strike these targets with missiles and artillery because they were in Ukraine, and not in a military training polygone inside Russia.

You said:
Do you have proof of Russian troops intentionally hiding from Ukrainian forces in densely populated urban areas?
No. But I have proof that Russian military forces came intentionally to Ukraine uninvited.
 

Jaykaro

Member
They're hitting military-industrial facilities, bridges, powerplants, SAM sites, and suspected military storage and staging areas.
residential complex Tiras, Odessa
Shopping Mall Riviera, Odessa
Shopping Mall Amstor, Kremenchug
Shahed and residential building 1 month ago, Odessa
Hundreds private houses in Nikolaev and Kherson
Russians never attack civil buildings in Kherson and Kharkiv with MRL?

Approved military facilities.

Regarding troops in urban areas, on picture troops with white bandages and vehicles hiding, after I will try to find a video where Russians claim that Ukrainians hit a hospital or house, and nearby, on the parking lot, there was something like an APC
 

Attachments

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Yes. Of course. Still, it was not criminal for the Ukrainian army to hide combat vehicles in urban areas and ammunitions in shopping malls as long as they do it in their own country. They have the right to do it if they like it.
That is a war crime, literally. Whether you do it in your own country or another is completely irrelevant.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
That is a war crime, literally. Whether you do it in your own country or another is completely irrelevant.
FWS when you have been invaded, a nation ,on its own territory absolutely needs to do what is necessary to protect its military assets. Better to face the questionable consequences in the Hague than a Putin $hitshow court in Russia.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Do a.p.c ,s deliver wounded to hospitals
That's a great question that opens a whole can of worms. Typically armored MEDEVACs would operate on and near the front line. From there they would go to a field hospital, and only eventually a proper hospital in the rear. But if the fighting is happening inside the city, then theoretically they could have an armored ambulance or even a regular APC repurposed as one delivering wounded straight to the hospital. There's also the question of markings. In principle military medical vehicles are supposed to be identified by the red cross marking, and therefore be immune from targeting on the battlefield. In reality this isn't being respected by either side in this war, and the improvised nature of many operations this isn't done. The same BMP might be an assault vehicle today, a supply vehicle tomorrow, and pulling out wounded the day after. What's worse is it might be doing all 3 at the same time. Often rotations of personnel at front line positions are a combination of bringing in some fresh supplies and some fresh personnel as well as taking away wounded on the trip back. And you're not supposed to use red cross marked vehicles as troop transports. So the short answer to your question is... maybe.

I agree. For the locals it's not nice. But for the entire Ukraine, statistically, it doesn't change much, if anything.
Russians are throwing at Ukraine everything they have, in the maximum quantities, with no limitation or restraint, anyway. What they throw at the northern border region is what they will not throw elsewhere.
The soldiers who now have to protect the border there are soldiers who won't be dispatched inside Ukraine.

Ukrainians decided to open a new front there. This is military strategy. Attacking the enemy on their own land is a perfectly valid strategy. In this case Russian certainly didn't expect that.
My guess is that Ukrainians will soon bombard Kursk with long range drones in the same manner as on Belgorod. Maybe not as intensively because of the distance. Of course it will depend on the means available to them, but I think that they would do it.

They don't have much ground forces available for attacks deep inside Russia. But should they have some, it would not be stupid to assault Belgorod and occupy it temporarily. This would force Russians to return to their own country to liberate the town.


No. I'm saying that they are 100 or 1000 times worse. Not equal. Moreover, Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine is defending itself.

It doesn't matter that Russians try to strike only military or industrial or strategic targets. (I don't believe it's true but, let's assume it is.)
None of these targets are legitimate because Russia doesn't have the right to destroy targets in Ukraine.
They know that they put civilian lives at risk. But even when they don't hurt civilians, it's still criminal to do it.

Firing at a vehicle belonging to the Ukrainian defence ministry is a criminal offense in Ukraine, even when the vehicle is parked in from of an hospital. And even if the said hospital has been converted into a military barrack.
Criminals who did it should be charged with murder or attempted murder and destruction of material amid other related charges.

Yet, Ukraine has the right to bomb Russia because it's attacked by Russia.
Putin is bragging about everything being fine in Russia and that Ukrainians being poor sobs unable to defend themselves. By shelling Belgorod daily, Ukrainians just show Russian people that he is wrong and give them the taste of his own medicine.

If they are killing civilians in Russia, it's of course criminal. But, yes, as long as there is a much worse evil, we are turning a blind eye.
Eventually, after the war, if Russia is willing to come back to the civilised world, we will discuss crimes committed by Ukrainians against civilians. Perhaps already during war reparation talks. After WW2, The Allies decided not to ask war reparations from Germany because Germans had suffered enough like this. A similar consideration could be brought up to reduce the war reparations Russia will have to pay. Thought the reduction will not be that important because it has to be proportional.

But as long as the war is going on it's out of question.


Then, they shouldn't complain that rockets and drones fall on Belgorod. They just get what they asked for.
Didn't they?


Yes. Of course. Still, it was not criminal for the Ukrainian army to hide combat vehicles in urban areas and ammunitions in shopping malls as long as they do it in their own country. They have the right to do it if they like it.
In my country, we often see military convoys and, one time, there were blockposts inside urban areas (thought not inside the town for practical reasons) as military drills. I imagine that in a real war situation against Russia, these units will be placed in similar locations.
Nothing illegal or immoral about it.

Yet, it was criminal for the Russians to strike these targets with missiles and artillery because they were in Ukraine, and not in a military training polygone inside Russia.


No. But I have proof that Russian military forces came intentionally to Ukraine uninvited.
I understand your position and I think you understand mine. I don't see the point of going on about this, since it's unlikely we're going to reach a meeting of the minds. Either way the original point remains. Ukraine launched the attack at some considerable cost to themselves, failed to accomplish anything, and drew a response from Russia that is causing serious harm to Ukrainian border regions. The move was, in my opinion, ill conceived, ill planned, and poorly executed, wasting resources and costing far more then anything it even could accomplish theoretically, nevermind the near nothing that it actually accomplished.

Ukrainians decided to open a new front there. This is military strategy. Attacking the enemy on their own land is a perfectly valid strategy. In this case Russian certainly didn't expect that.
I wanted to answer this particular bit separate. It's very silly to claim Russia didn't expect an attack into Belgorod region. Russia publicized their Iskander strike in the very opening stages of the operation, followed by many loitering munition strikes, destroying several groups of Ukrainian armored vehicles on the Ukrainian side of the border, either moving to attack, or still staging for the attack. Russia clearly knew Ukraine was planning a cross-border offensive and delivered a very nasty blow to those forces before they could even attack. They attacked anyway, with disasterous results. Is this strategy valid? I think that as military strategy it was both invalid and unsound. It's not problematic, like firing MLRS indiscriminately into civilian traffic is. But it was certainly a bad idea. Given that it was timed to coincide with elections in Russia, it's clear this move had little military significance, and was meant to make noise around election time. It was accompanied by disinformation attempts in social media, with Ukrainian sources trying to claim that "Russian Volunteer Corps" forces were already deep inside Russia. This leads me to question whether this was military strategy at all, or whether this was an attempt to use military means to achieve a political goal not immediately related to achieving an actual victory on the battlefield. Ukraine has fought this war in the media space since day 1, and I think this was another stunt in that direction.
 
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KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
FWS when you have been invaded, a nation ,on its own territory absolutely needs to do what is necessary to protect its military assets. Better to face the questionable consequences in the Hague than a Putin $hitshow court in Russia.
Not sure if “protecting” a MLRS parked in a mall or next to an apartment building, for example, is worth potentially a few dozens killed civilians due to a missile strike destroying that piece of equipment and ammunition. How many civilian lives is a tank worth? A self-propelled artillery piece? Some other equipment?

Also, that is why there are internationally recognized rules of war, no?

In the beginning, there were plenty of various videos documenting the insanity, but this one (two rather) I remember in particular, for whatever reason. There was a video released by some Ukrainian outlets of a Russian tank being taken out from one of the end balconies of a good size building (I would now guess 9 stories) and another tank fired at but missed from the same balcony. The video ended with the tank’s turret turning. Everyone cheered. The next day or a couple of days later there was another video released by the Ukrainian and western media of that second tank firing at that same balcony bringing down a good chunk of that end of the building with one strike, then showing ruble and talking about a number of civilians killed (I don’t recall how many, but children were involved in the report). It was one and the same video simply split in two and released some hours apart to align with the agenda. Was the destroyed tank worth it? Not in my view, but that’s how she goes. I would think those who died in ruins would share my point of view, but we will never know.

Plenty of videos with mostly older folks and women telling the soldiers to move their equipment away from their living quarters and getting f yous in return. I would think there were some shared here among thousands of links provided.

So yeah, I am not quite sure if committing war crimes against your own population should be included into the “need to do what’s necessary to protect the military assets” (that are meant to protect the very population from the offending party). Either way, to avoid the confusion on the necessities and appropriate tactics, for the most part, there was a set of rules recognized by the international community for situations exactly like this.

So while we all have a different set of morals and comments on wether it is not immoral, like someone suggested, could be debatable (to me, there is no debate here either), but the criminal aspect of it is pretty clear and well defined.

I doubt there will be any tribunals once this is over though. Nothing of substance anyway.


This has nothing to do with your post, John F, rather something I saw mentioned above. I would also propose that it is pretty crazy to suggest that it is ok for the civilians disagreeing with the general Ukrainian line of thought to be simply killed because they refused to leave their homes. I mean how much more insane can this get? The thinking I mean. Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this point of view.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Do a.p.c ,s deliver wounded to hospitals
Yes in two parts.
First yes in that any vehicle can deliver casualties to a hospital. Military or civilian.

Second however that vehicle is not considered protected by the Geneva protocolunless it is 1) unarmed, 2) sports the Approved making Red Cross/crescent/Crystal.
In example the Israelis are well known for using the backs of Merkava tanks as aid stations from time to time to evacuate wounded soldiers. There is no violation of the Geneva protocol in doing this as the IDF is aware that said vehicle is a legitimate target and it doesn’t have the RC markings.
Where if the IDF Rolled a Namer APC without weapons wearing the RC markings then It would be entitled to protections of the treaty. The Rub is that those protections really don’t matter unless both sides decide to play by the rules. It’s up to the other guy to determine if they pull the trigger or not there are no referees in war. Many weapons don’t provide mechanisms to easily identify what is protected and what isn’t and even if they did some will still break the rules.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Terran said:
The Rub is that those protections really don’t matter unless both sides decide to play by the rules.
Yes. And I don't think that many armies played by these rules, if any.
If painting a red cross on the roof would be enough to convince the enemy not to strike it, all the vehicles would have a red cross on their roof.
A bad joke says that the red cross just help to align the bombsight on it.

IMO, the red cross is more for indentification within your own armed forces than a signal to the enemy.

Feanor said:
I wanted to answer this particular bit separate. It's very silly to claim Russia didn't expect an attack into Belgorod region. Russia publicized their Iskander strike in the very opening stages of the operation, followed by many loitering munition strikes, destroying several groups of Ukrainian armored vehicles on the Ukrainian side of the border, either moving to attack, or still staging for the attack. Russia clearly knew Ukraine was planning a cross-border offensive and delivered a very nasty blow to those forces before they could even attack. They attacked anyway, with disasterous results. ....
Your second part includes good points. It's possible that the Russians detected and destroyed Ukrainian forces before they attacked and that the operation was a disaster for Ukrainians. But that's implementation, not strategy.
Before Russians saw Ukrainians preparing for an assault, no matter how early that gathered intelligence, they didn't expect to see that in that area.
If Russians were successful, maybe it's because they had already some forces stationed there, not to repel an Ukrainian attack, but to launch an attack on Ukrainians should they see an opportunity. (That's my theory).

Surprise effect is very difficult in this war of drones. But disturbing enemie's plans by moving in an unexpected way is still possible.

Doing this during election time makes plenty of sens.

I said:
Yes. Of course. Still, it was not criminal for the Ukrainian army to hide combat vehicles in urban areas and ammunitions in shopping malls as long as they do it in their own country. They have the right to do it if they like it.
KipPotapych said:
That is a war crime, literally. Whether you do it in your own country or another is completely irrelevant.
I'm sorry to disagree. It's not a war crime to park military vehicles somewhere, no matter where it is.

The only war crime is to fire at them. The Russian commander who order to fire on the target commits the war crime, not the Ukrainians at the target.

Now you will tell me that Ukrainians too fires at Russian targets while they know it could hurt civilian. This is true. And this is also a crime. With the circumstance that Ukrainians did so to protect their country against an enemy superior in number and fire power, whereas Russians do so to invade a weaker country.

In the case when Russians are firing, it's a crime even when there is no risk of hitting civilians.

KipPotapych said:
civilians disagreeing with the general Ukrainian line of thought to be simply killed because they refused to leave their homes.
This is not the Ukrainian line of thought. And this is not a thought. This is what happens.
When combats start or military vehicles are positioned near you house in war time, you should evacuate. If you don't, it's at your own risk.

10 million of Ukrainians took the right decision to leave their home to avoid the danger. Most of them preemptively before the dangers become visible. Those who stayed decided to face the danger or were not conscious of the danger or were ready to face their fate as they feel to be old enough to die rather than suffering an exile (there were some people like that in some interviews). There are even people who refuse to leave even when police order them to do so and try to take them away pgysically. That's how civilians were still spotted in Avdiivka and other ruin fields. But nobody says that it's OK if they die.
No, it's not OK that they die because Russians drop bombs all over the place.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Yes. And I don't think that many armies played by these rules, if any.
If painting a red cross on the roof would be enough to convince the enemy not to strike it, all the vehicles would have a red cross on their roof.
A bad joke says that the red cross just help to align the bombsight on it.

IMO, the red cross is more for indentification within your own armed forces than a signal to the enemy.
Which leads to three counters
1) by the Geneva protocols said vehicles and medics provide aid to all who need it meaning that attacking them risks the lives of both enemy soldiers as well as any of your own whom may have been wounded and recovered by the enemy.
2) in the event you are dealing with someone who has disregarded the protocols the makers are generally easily removed or covered over. If the enemy has decided to throw out the rules then it’s down to camouflage. These vehicles can be modified back to combat configuration by addition of defensive armaments. Still the primary purpose of the vehicle remains that of an ambulance. Stabilizing casualties for evacuation and treatment. Yes it’s for identification by allied soldiers too but the markers are treaty standard for a reason. If it was just for your own army then you would expect a wider range of makers and not a standard.
3) that’s when the Geneva protocol becomes the Geneva checklist. If you toss the rules then the enemy has to decide if they feel the incentive to retaliate.
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Provided that actual civilian ambulances have been targeted far away from frontlines, as well as hospitals that were treating wounded troops, the discussion of safe use of armoured vehicles for evacuation of wounded personnel from the battle ground is kind of moot, haha. Plenty of drone and other footage from both sides showing “finishing off” wounded enemy soldiers by sniper fire or munition drops from the same drones as well. Plus people not even involved in the hostilities suggesting that war crimes are not war crimes at all, and so on, lol.


On a separate note, Ukraine is pressing partners for more air defences and Patriots in particular. At the same time, in the past couple of months they lost an insane amount of AD units, which was talked about a few weeks ago, and the tally had only been increasing dramatically since. Remember the claims of a number of downed Russian jets within a couple of weeks, while I was saying they are losing more AD assets in the (still unconfirmed) process and it is questionable who was losing even if the claims were true? It appears that with the recent Russian attacks the answer to that question is pretty clear. There has also been some footage of the Russian bombers flying unimpeded over or next to Chasov Yar and some analysts suggested that we may start seeing direct bombardments of the Ukrainian positions without the use of UMPK kits (some suggest that it may already be happening). Tatarigami had briefly discussed the issue a week or so ago:


They lost another Iris-T (the radar at the very least, but the evidence for a launcher being destroyed as well is pretty convincing):


I haven’t seen any summaries in a while, is there anyone keeping track?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Provided that actual civilian ambulances have been targeted far away from frontlines, as well as hospitals that were treating wounded troops, the discussion of safe use of armoured vehicles for evacuation of wounded personnel from the battle ground is kind of moot, haha. Plenty of drone and other footage from both sides showing “finishing off” wounded enemy soldiers by sniper fire or munition drops from the same drones as well. Plus people not even involved in the hostilities suggesting that war crimes are not war crimes at all, and so on, lol.


On a separate note, Ukraine is pressing partners for more air defences and Patriots in particular. At the same time, in the past couple of months they lost an insane amount of AD units, which was talked about a few weeks ago, and the tally had only been increasing dramatically since. Remember the claims of a number of downed Russian jets within a couple of weeks, while I was saying they are losing more AD assets in the (still unconfirmed) process and it is questionable who was losing even if the claims were true? It appears that with the recent Russian attacks the answer to that question is pretty clear. There has also been some footage of the Russian bombers flying unimpeded over or next to Chasov Yar and some analysts suggested that we may start seeing direct bombardments of the Ukrainian positions without the use of UMPK kits (some suggest that it may already be happening). Tatarigami had briefly discussed the issue a week or so ago:


They lost another Iris-T (the radar at the very least, but the evidence for a launcher being destroyed as well is pretty convincing):


I haven’t seen any summaries in a while, is there anyone keeping track?
Part of the issue Ukraine and the collective west faces is also exhaustion of stocks. There isn't another giant supply of MANPADS or other SHORAD that can easily be provided. This isn't to say there won't be more deliveries, but without a serious ramp-up in production Ukraine is going to be low on MANPADS and other GBAD for the forseeable future. The scale and length of the conflict are unexpected. We saw this in Avdeevka too where MANPADS were running low, and bigger SAMs were getting destroyed, making it possible to drop unguided bombs on Ukrainian positions the old-fashioned way. So far these are exceptions rather then the rule, and in principle Ukraine can redeploy additional MANPADS to Chasov Yar. I don't believe they are completely out. But they're going to be short somewhere. Russia is very much reaping the rewards of managing to keep such large Soviet-era stocks, and even manufacturing capabilities.

I'm curious about US stocks of Linebacker and Avenger vehicles. It's true they're ultimately tied to Stinger missiles, but shouldn't those, along with the missiles, still be available?
 

Fredled

Active Member
It's clear that it's not an easy task to destroy the entire stock of the Soviet Union + Russia. The US has not faced such a task since Vietnam and Europe since WW2. Russia is not running out of money neither. Their sovereign fund is dwindling but it's not like they care. For Russia this Special Military Operation is officially an existential challenge.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

The attack on Ukrainian warehouses in Odessa, claiming being done by Pro Russian partisan. Whether this is Russian forces infiltrate Ukrainian line, or real Pro Russian partisan, will be open to debate.

However this shown Russia now using similar Ukrainian tactics on infiltration or activating cells of local supporters. Something that considering how Ukrainian recruiting civilians mostly in Southeast, not surprising getting backfire from some Eastern Ukrainian.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member

The attack on Ukrainian warehouses in Odessa, claiming being done by Pro Russian partisan. Whether this is Russian forces infiltrate Ukrainian line, or real Pro Russian partisan, will be open to debate.

However this shown Russia now using similar Ukrainian tactics on infiltration or activating cells of local supporters. Something that considering how Ukrainian recruiting civilians mostly in Southeast, not surprising getting backfire from some Eastern Ukrainian.
There is a claim but we have no corroboration. This isn't the first time I've seen claims of this sort, but evidence tends to be scant or absent.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

Oskol front.

A meeting of wrecked armor, a Ukrainian Leo-2A5 and a Russian T-72B3 and BMP-3 all knocked out, next to each other. The BMP-3 clearly has extra-armor kits.


A destroyed Ukrainian T-55 (M-55S) near Krasniy Liman.


Seversk salient.

Russia is continuing to advance along the railroad towards Vyemka. Russia has also begun assaulting the refuse mound near Belogorovka. Taking it is key to advancing in this area.


Artemovsk/Bakhmut-Chasov Yar.

Russian forces are advancing on Chasov Yar along 3 paths. The first is north out of Bogdanovka which Ukraine has lost but which Russia doesn't seem to fully control, the last few houses on the south-western side being in no-man's land. Out of there presumably they will push through the forest and Kalinovka towards the northern parts of the town. On the central side they've entered the canal neighborhood, but are stalled contesting the first row of high-rises. In the south they are advancing through the Stupki-2 forest towards a gap in the canal, where it goes underground into pipes, making it easy to cross. South of the area Russia is slowly expanding their area of control north of Klescheevka. No attempts to attack towards Andreevka or Klescheevka lately, suggesting Russia hopes to be able to force a retreat to east of the canal by advancing on Chasov yar.


Russian FPV drone taking out allegedly a MUTT unmanned platform. Personally I can't make out what they've hit.


Russian Su-25s flying by at low altitude near Chasov Yar.


Russian UMPK strikes on Chasov Yar.


Avdeevka area.

Russian forces are advancing north of Avdeevka towards the Zarya summer cottages, and north of Berdychy. It seems likely that taking at least Novobakhmutovka, and possibly Ocheretino, is the intent. Russian forces are also advancing to Novokalinovo, pushing on the hills east of it, and approaching the town from the south. Russian forces are also continuing their push west of the Tonen'koe-Orlovka-Berdychy line, into the triangle between the waterways. They're at the outskirts of Umanskoe and approaching the road from Umanskoe to Netaylovo. Lastly on the right shore of the river Russian forces are inching forward inside Semenovka.


Ukrainian tank getting hit near Avdeevka.


Russian forces using and losing ex-Georgian BMP-1s with Shtorm modules near Berdychy. 15 total were captured in the '08 war.


Allegedly a Ukrainian M109 getting hit by Krasnopol' near Avdeevka.


3 destroyed/knocked out Bradleys north of Berdychy. From the comments of the video it seems Russian ATGM crews on the roof of the chemical plant have clear line of sight to the fields as far north as Novobakhmutovka. I can't tell if the people filming are Russian or Ukrainian, but if Russia has the ability to ATGM any vehicles in the area, it will make evacuation attempts difficult even if Ukraine still holds that area.


Russia hitting a 2S1 in Karlovka.


The dam near Karlovka was blown up, presumably by a Russian strike, reportedly flooding some Ukrainian positions.


Russia's advance has led to the capture of Ukrainian UAV-drop munitions near Avdeevka.


Pervomayskoe.

Russian forces have taken Pervomayskoe, and the next fight will be for Netaylovo. Oddly enough Russia has made no moves to take the low-land between Pervomayskoe and Nevel'skoe.


Knocked out/destroyed Ukrainian vehicles in Pervomayskoe.


Krasnogorovka.

Russian forces have expanded their area of control in the summer cottages on the eastern outskirts of Krasnogorovka. Despite reports that Russia has contested the factory in the center of town, evidence is lacking. A quick recap, initially Russia went into the town from the south but was repulsed. Then Russia went in from the east and grabbed a foothold, which they hold to this day.


A Humvee getting hit, Krasnogorovka.


Russian fires in Krasnogorovka.


Novomihailovka.

Russian forces continue to push north, south, and inside the village itself. Ukrainian forces still hold the western ~15-20% of the local but losing it appears to be a matter of time.

 
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