The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Sorry to disappoint.
I am, obviously, not as well educated, and mannered, as others.
Won't debate your education but manners....perhaps, but to be fair, I would need to go back and review your comments. Some seem a little offside. As other senior members know, I am not exactly innocent....missing Paul to keep me right side up.
 

Redshift

Active Member
I am starting to feel that I am responding to something that is not exactly on-topic (but people keep clapping your words).

And not purely as a moral position, it's also about the negative externalities and secondary and tertiary effects it has on everyone, including plenty of people who have nothing to do with either country.
-The not-moral doesn't look naive. On the other hand, the UK is burning (and Spain), plenty of people have nothing to do with it and it is naive to think that the peasants will not pay for the decisions taken by the governments; not necessarily conquest, not necessarily invasion.

That doesn't justify conquest.
-I find naive trying to find justification.

Conquest paying off makes the world worse for everyone in it, not just the two countries fighting, who have their people and economies shredded.
-It maybe so, but everyone trying "conquest"
does so thinking that it is going to pay off
and as far as I can remember, they may do it for the honour of the country, but never for the good of the people.
Changing the government in Kiev was good for the Russian people or for the Ukrainian people? Was that ever a reason for the invasion?

-Force works, I think it is naive not to recognize that; fairy tales don't.

I'm happy to hear the argument that this invasion has been a net positive for anyone.
-I don't think anyone can make that argument. Have I ever tried to make anything like that argument?

You are naive, I'm cynical, I am happy with that justification.
You are not cynical, you have a pro Russian position and a very anti Ukraine and the West opinion, nobody is stopping you holding that position but it is incredibly hypocritical to not admit to it.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
You are not cynical, you have a pro Russian position and a very anti Ukraine and the West opinion, nobody is stopping you holding that position but it is incredibly hypocritical to not admit to it.

...night after night Russia strikes Ukraine’s infrastructure with impunity. This tragedy was long foretold, and there are no quick fixes.
-Wait, no analyst mentioned that to Boris? No one was looking at Russian missiles production and NATO interceptors production, future production and sharing it's implications? Because, if it was foretold, that would had been like prodding Ukraine into disaster?

While the military narrative of the war has largely been of cheap mass-produced Ukrainian weapons overwhelming exquisite Russian military hardware, most of the serious damage from Russia’s long-range strikes has come from cruise and ballistic missiles, and Ukraine’s campaign has suffered for want of them.
-I thought it was about the cheap produced Geran. Anyway, the "40 Days" (and everything else?), a wishlist?

It is generally recommended to fire two to three interceptors against each ballistic missile. When you also factor in that the launchers themselves can only protect a relatively small area, and Ukraine is a vast country, then it becomes clear that Kyiv would ideally have three to four times the annual global production capacity of Patriot missiles to protect itself.
-So, it is evident, no geniality, no surprise, that some drones will hit Russia, a country even bigger. And again, no one thought how Ukraine (meaning NATO, obviously) was going to get 3 to 4 times the Russian production of missiles in interceptors?
Or someone did, but those missiles were going to hit Ukraine, anyway.

A portion of Iran’s missiles were also advanced. In one instance, it took 17 Patriot interceptors to defeat a missile.
-I didn't read about that one.

Ukraine is not going to receive enough Patriots between now and the winter to save its critical national infrastructure, irrespective of whether some countries make the political gesture of releasing a few more from their stockpiles.
-Is that the real "window of opportunity" Zelenski was talking about?

Kyiv is trying to convince the US to activate Starlink satellite navigation modules over Russian territory to enable its drones to hunt for the Russian missile launchers.
-Or more Wildberries?

Another line of effort in Kyiv is to attack the production of Russia’s ballistic missiles. These factories are well defended. To succeed, Ukraine’s partners will need to expand the funding and industrial capacity behind Ukraine’s nascent cruise-missile industry, or reopen questions of providing weapons systems .
-To provide a lot more interceptors, a lot more money and materials and a lot more weapons systems. Again, Ukraine 0, NATO +++.
Another point would be if Ukraine can use Starlink, what means Ukraine has to carry it out and how effective it's going to be. Even if it is a "60 Days" campaign against launchers (aircraft?) and missiles factories. Just another wishlist?

The point of the article (in theguardian even if the author works for RUSI) is don't give to Ukraine, forget about Patriots and get our own European system, it is about bloody time.

I am pro-reality, mate.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
Once again, another conspiracy theory that UKR is not fighting of its own accord.
No, you are pro-surrender.
You dont seem to grasp just how badly the Ukrainians as a whole dont want to be Russian.
I wrote "prodding", you read conspiracy.
That Ukrainians don't want to be Russian is real enough, where do you read "surrender"?

I am a bit surprised that you seem more interested in what I don't say, that in what RUSI says.
It was foretold? Any thought about that?
If you want to post great news about conspiracies, I don't think you need me.

...
I was just watching how Ukraine hit another Wildberries, in its campaign to destroy Russian missiles, I guess.
 

rsemmes

Active Member
What surrender?
If you can't see the point, I see no point in engaging further with you.
If you see the point & are pretending not to, there's even less point to engaging with you.

(Not my post.)

Before the invasion or after the invasion? At Istanbul or at any negotiation after Istanbul?
The consequences of what "surrender" or of what "conquest" that never existed?
Well, they exist in the press and in some posts here.

Still, everyone is happy with Jack Watling?
 

Redshift

Active Member

...night after night Russia strikes Ukraine’s infrastructure with impunity. This tragedy was long foretold, and there are no quick fixes.
-Wait, no analyst mentioned that to Boris? No one was looking at Russian missiles production and NATO interceptors production, future production and sharing it's implications? Because, if it was foretold, that would had been like prodding Ukraine into disaster?

While the military narrative of the war has largely been of cheap mass-produced Ukrainian weapons overwhelming exquisite Russian military hardware, most of the serious damage from Russia’s long-range strikes has come from cruise and ballistic missiles, and Ukraine’s campaign has suffered for want of them.
-I thought it was about the cheap produced Geran. Anyway, the "40 Days" (and everything else?), a wishlist?

It is generally recommended to fire two to three interceptors against each ballistic missile. When you also factor in that the launchers themselves can only protect a relatively small area, and Ukraine is a vast country, then it becomes clear that Kyiv would ideally have three to four times the annual global production capacity of Patriot missiles to protect itself.
-So, it is evident, no geniality, no surprise, that some drones will hit Russia, a country even bigger. And again, no one thought how Ukraine (meaning NATO, obviously) was going to get 3 to 4 times the Russian production of missiles in interceptors?
Or someone did, but those missiles were going to hit Ukraine, anyway.

A portion of Iran’s missiles were also advanced. In one instance, it took 17 Patriot interceptors to defeat a missile.
-I didn't read about that one.

Ukraine is not going to receive enough Patriots between now and the winter to save its critical national infrastructure, irrespective of whether some countries make the political gesture of releasing a few more from their stockpiles.
-Is that the real "window of opportunity" Zelenski was talking about?

Kyiv is trying to convince the US to activate Starlink satellite navigation modules over Russian territory to enable its drones to hunt for the Russian missile launchers.
-Or more Wildberries?

Another line of effort in Kyiv is to attack the production of Russia’s ballistic missiles. These factories are well defended. To succeed, Ukraine’s partners will need to expand the funding and industrial capacity behind Ukraine’s nascent cruise-missile industry, or reopen questions of providing weapons systems .
-To provide a lot more interceptors, a lot more money and materials and a lot more weapons systems. Again, Ukraine 0, NATO +++.
Another point would be if Ukraine can use Starlink, what means Ukraine has to carry it out and how effective it's going to be. Even if it is a "60 Days" campaign against launchers (aircraft?) and missiles factories. Just another wishlist?

The point of the article (in theguardian even if the author works for RUSI) is don't give to Ukraine, forget about Patriots and get our own European system, it is about bloody time.

I am pro-reality, mate.
Nope you aren't, please don't call me mate

...night after night Russia strikes Ukraine’s infrastructure with impunity. This tragedy was long foretold, and there are no quick fixes.
-Wait, no analyst mentioned that to Boris? No one was looking at Russian missiles production and NATO interceptors production, future production and sharing it's implications? Because, if it was foretold, that would had been like prodding Ukraine into disaster?

While the military narrative of the war has largely been of cheap mass-produced Ukrainian weapons overwhelming exquisite Russian military hardware, most of the serious damage from Russia’s long-range strikes has come from cruise and ballistic missiles, and Ukraine’s campaign has suffered for want of them.
-I thought it was about the cheap produced Geran. Anyway, the "40 Days" (and everything else?), a wishlist?

It is generally recommended to fire two to three interceptors against each ballistic missile. When you also factor in that the launchers themselves can only protect a relatively small area, and Ukraine is a vast country, then it becomes clear that Kyiv would ideally have three to four times the annual global production capacity of Patriot missiles to protect itself.
-So, it is evident, no geniality, no surprise, that some drones will hit Russia, a country even bigger. And again, no one thought how Ukraine (meaning NATO, obviously) was going to get 3 to 4 times the Russian production of missiles in interceptors?
Or someone did, but those missiles were going to hit Ukraine, anyway.

A portion of Iran’s missiles were also advanced. In one instance, it took 17 Patriot interceptors to defeat a missile.
-I didn't read about that one.

Ukraine is not going to receive enough Patriots between now and the winter to save its critical national infrastructure, irrespective of whether some countries make the political gesture of releasing a few more from their stockpiles.
-Is that the real "window of opportunity" Zelenski was talking about?

Kyiv is trying to convince the US to activate Starlink satellite navigation modules over Russian territory to enable its drones to hunt for the Russian missile launchers.
-Or more Wildberries?

Another line of effort in Kyiv is to attack the production of Russia’s ballistic missiles. These factories are well defended. To succeed, Ukraine’s partners will need to expand the funding and industrial capacity behind Ukraine’s nascent cruise-missile industry, or reopen questions of providing weapons systems .
-To provide a lot more interceptors, a lot more money and materials and a lot more weapons systems. Again, Ukraine 0, NATO +++.
Another point would be if Ukraine can use Starlink, what means Ukraine has to carry it out and how effective it's going to be. Even if it is a "60 Days" campaign against launchers (aircraft?) and missiles factories. Just another wishlist?

The point of the article (in theguardian even if the author works for RUSI) is don't give to Ukraine, forget about Patriots and get our own European system, it is about bloody time.

I am pro-reality, mate.
You are pro Russian, anti western , as I said you are entitled to your opinion just stop pretending to hide it, anybody would think that you are ashamed of it for some reason.
 

Redshift

Active Member
You call me: pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian, anti-western and, probably, something else...
All right.
I'm confused, do you take those as insults? That is clearly the position that you take, I'm fine with that it is your choice. I'm just asking you to be honest about it.
 
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