Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[recce.k1]

With all due respect to the RNZN, and I trained with one of their CNs, they have always operated what the RAN would have considered Tier 2; Lochs vs. Battles/Darings, T12 vs Darings/Charles F Adams, Anzacs VS CF Adams/FFG7s/F100s. So it would be nothing new; and might well be the appropriate and most importantly, affordable option.

Always appreciate your realism Spoz, and your post on this subject a few days ago on the RAN thread prompted me to put some thought into this from the perspectives and lessons learnt of the past and but also the needs going forward. There were also the post war improved Dido light cruisers so there was once a (political) will, albeit token in numbers as you noted, to ensure the RNZN maintained a capability that could slot into a RN/RAN task force (eg additional air defence for the RAN's Majestic-class light aircraft carriers). (Pity it wasn't replaced with a County-class or perhaps (long shot) a 4th CFA to slot directly into the RAN orbat and be based in Australia)?

There is much criticism of NZ not pulling its weight and suggest (as ASPI has recently) even NZ purchasing 2-3 RAN project Tier 2's IMO is still tokenistic. Particularly when we have had a greater naval force in the past and now when the Indo-Pacific situation is much more complex than it has been in the past (and when RNZN's focus was primarily ASW post war). Yes the ASW focus should still be so now, but we are at the point where the RNZN needs other capabilities and the MoD/NZDF is itself pushing for greater concurrency in terms of capabilities to support operations.

You know your naval history better than me but for the benefit of others who may not re: NZ early in WW2 when war was declared NZ (Division of the RN) light cruisers ventured into the Southern Ocean looking for raiders, their supply ships or enemy merchant shipping, as such vessels made divergences from their usual ocean tracks escaping to neutral ports or some tried to return home (and were invariably sunk in the Atlantic) or to occupied France and even Japan etc. A deployment was also made to the coasts and ports of Chile, Peru, Ecuador and Colombia for similar reasons.

Today we face a potential adversary with one of the largest and most lethal naval fleets of our times. Backed up by hundreds of coast guard and potentially armed civilian ocean going vessels, which are operating around in the Indo-Pacific.

I'm not sure NZ potentially sending say, a 16 cell VLS equipped ALFA 3000 into the Southern Ocean or another eastern patrol to the likes again of South America to keep an eye on potential raiders causing havoc in eastern Polynesia (underseas cables, refueling facilities etc) would be the most ideal confguration?

So in terms of appropriateness and affordability that's what scares me ... NZ politicians taking the easy way out with smiling photo-ops with their Australian counterparts signing us up to the cheapest and the least (future) upgradable options all for political expediency! Whilst I hope Defence will bring some sembalance of reality into such future fleet and capability planning, never under-estimate a NZ politcian with a chequebook saying take it or leave it ...

 

[RetirementIsGood]

The current government's priorities are firstly delivering on income tax reductions for their prime voting constituency, and secondly reducing the national infrastructure capital deficiency.
The first requires spending reductions all round, including 7.5% by MoD and 'only' 6.5% by NZDF for the 2024/25 FY, and cancellation of anti-smoking laws to keep tobacco excise revenue up.
The second is going to be a fiscal headache and so is already being re-defined as a roading for cars & trucks infrastructure deficit. Pipes infrastructure has already been re-categorised as a ratepayers' problem by repealing the "3 waters" legislation with vague promises of a replacement regime in due course. The new Transport Minister has made it quite clear he doesn't want any money 'wasted' on cycleways, walking paths and the like. Big new Cook Strait ferries and earthquake resistant (admittedly probably gold plated) terminals are gone, and the chances of upgrading rail infrastructure appear zero.

What does this mean for new or replacement ships for the RNZN?
IMO there will be absolutely no commitment to major RNZN equipment capital expenditure during the term of the current government.
There may be a few studies, perhaps an ANZAC Ship Replacement Project stood up - funded out of existing MoD Opex of course, conceivably an MoU under AUKUS or some such, but no chance of an actual order for any actual hull(s).

Strategic requirements are one thing, but political realities are another.

 

[Rob c]

Strategic requirements are one thing, but political realities are another.

Some what simplistic, the political reality on defence has been carefully crafted by the politicians themselves. This was done by both reducing any narrative on defence and when any narrative was required any defence purchases always were talked up for their non military uses, eg, SAR or disaster etc.
This was no accident as it allowed the Government of the day not to have to commit much finance to defence. It is now time for the Pollies to change this with an increased narrative of pro defence.

 

[ngatimozart]

Maybe time to let an RNZN press-gang do a lap or two round Bondi Beach and Capital Hil?

You'd never get them out of the pubs and houses of ill repute.

With all due respect to the RNZN, and I trained with one of their CNs, they have always operated what the RAN would have considered Tier 2; Lochs vs. Battles/Darings, T12 vs Darings/Charles F Adams, Anzacs VS CF Adams/FFG7s/F100s. So it would be nothing new; and might well be the appropriate and most importantly, affordable option.

We also operated gun cruisers. After WW2 the RNZN wanted destroyers and frigates because they beleived that they were better for operating in the Pacific. However, the pollies wanted a cruiser because it had bigger guns and looked important. So, 20 years of cruisers was a Kiwi pollie vanity project.

I’m curious as to what are “NZs Strategic needs?”.
do they live in an alternate universe, where the exact same influences that effect Aust suddenly do not effect NZ?

does the world think that cos they’re placed at the end of a long supply line, they have a different requirement to secure their SLOCs and EEZs, that somehow dont relate to Australia?

or does everyone just think that NZ deserves a free pass and they aren’t really actually required to field a relevant capability anyway, because everyone will do it for them?

It is the pollies in NZ who are the problem, not the people. The NZ Labour Party has been captured by left wing activists who are anti defence, anti US, anti Australia. Because of their very poor performance under Ardern and Hipkins, the possibility exists that they could be replaced as the main Opposition Party by the Greens. NZ Labour has forgotten its roots; the average working bloke and blokess. For the last 30 years it's been all urban, middle class, professional, university educated people pushing activist causes. Mike Moore was its last leader who held a real job in the real world. The idea of the Greens as the main opposition party is a nightmare from deepest, darkest hades. The NZ National Party still solidly believes in neo lib policies, and it hasn't the brain power to read the electorate and change its mind. I actually think they are incapable of changing their mind because they don't have the intellectual capacity to do so.

 

[Lucasnz]

In other news HMNZS Aotearoa as a fuel issue with oil contamination and corrosion / coating issues. HMNZS Aotearoa Suffers $10M Damage: Contaminated Diesel and Corros… (bnnbreaking.com). Also on the Herald but paywalled. The corrosion issues are slightly concerning, given the age.

 

[ngatimozart]

In other news HMNZS Aotearoa as a fuel issue with oil contamination and corrosion / coating issues. HMNZS Aotearoa Suffers $10M Damage: Contaminated Diesel and Corros… (bnnbreaking.com). Also on the Herald but paywalled. The corrosion issues are slightly concerning, given the age.

There has been significant increases in fuel contamination issues since we now fully rely on imported fuels. I think it's only going to get worse. Previously we were able to re-refine contaminated diesel and aviation fuels; now we can't.

 

[Alberto32]

https://defsec.net.nz/2024/03/20/leonardo-partners-with-new-zealand-suppliers-maritime-helicopter/, just discovered this news on FB.

 

[Teal]

Leonardo and NZ industry partners sign MoU for Maritime Helicopter Replacement programme - Defsec, just discovered this news on FB.

I do wonder if this is initally in preperation for the deployment of RN Wildcats to the RNZN , no so much long term ? Just my thought

 

[Whiplash34]

I do wonder if this is initally in preperation for the deployment of RN Wildcats to the RNZN , no so much long term ? Just my thought

Although I can’t say categorically that it’s locked in and going ahead…my understanding is that the proposed RN Wildcat deployment is intended to just tide us over. Furthermore I believe that ultimately the Wildcat won’t be on the cards as a Seasprite replacement, as when it was measured, it couldn’t fit in our ships hangers without having its weapons pylons removed (ie completely impractical). This info was relayed to me by a current serving RNZN member. The Wildcat sure has a wide berth when you have a look at stock images. Not that it means anything, but she’s not the prettiest looking bird…. (mostly said in jest so don’t clack off at me….!)

 

[Hawkeye69]

Although I can’t say categorically that it’s locked in and going ahead…my understanding is that the proposed RN Wildcat deployment is intended to just tide us over. Furthermore I believe that ultimately the Wildcat won’t be on the cards as a Seasprite replacement, as when it was measured, it couldn’t fit in our ships hangers without having its weapons pylons removed (ie completely impractical). This info was relayed to me by a current serving RNZN member. The Wildcat sure has a wide berth when you have a look at stock images. Not that it means anything, but she’s not the prettiest looking bird…. (mostly said in jest so don’t clack off at me….!)
View attachment 51237 View attachment 51238

Any idea when this possible lease will be confirmed, makes one wonder how long the Seasprites will remain viable.

 

[kiwi in exile]

it couldn’t fit in our ships hangers without having its weapons pylons removed (ie completely impractical).

. You think NZ is likely to acquire a (meaningfully) armed platform?

Not that it means anything, but she’s not the prettiest looking bird…. (mostly said in jest so don’t clack off at me….!)

Agree

 

[Whiplash34]

Any idea when this possible lease will be confirmed, makes one wonder how long the Seasprites will remain viable.

No sorry mate. I’m sure I read or was told that there are only about 3 Seasprite airframes operating at the moment - I believe a couple are out due to the radar being r/s and parts to repair them are not available (possibly they are still flying but zero to little capability)….

 

[Whiplash34]

. You think NZ is likely to acquire a (meaningfully) armed platform?


Agree

No, you’re right. ‘Meaningfully armed’ would mean that it’s likely the right tool for the job and therefore, that being said, there is almost zero chance of us ordering that option.

No…we will almost certainly go for the cheaper option that has less capability but ticks some of the boxes the RNZN/NZDF want

I desperately want to be proved wrong of course….

 

[Rob c]

No sorry mate. I’m sure I read or was told that there are only about 3 Seasprite airframes operating at the moment - I believe a couple are out due to the radar being r/s and parts to repair them are not available (possibly they are still flying but zero to little capability)….

I read in the paper ( Manawatu Standard) couple of days ago that the Seasprite availability was currently 11%, due to a lack of spare parts and low numbers of qualitied supervisors. These problems of parts and personnel had impacted with most aircraft types and that the were using contractors to supplement service personnel even on the P8's. Since the slashing of personnel benefits by J.K's government, there has a constant wind down of experienced supervisors.

 

[InterestedParty]

I read in the paper ( Manawatu Standard) couple of days ago that the Seasprite availability was currently 11%, due to a lack of spare parts and low numbers of qualitied supervisors. These problems of parts and personnel had impacted with most aircraft types and that the were using contractors to supplement service personnel even on the P8's. Since the slashing of personnel benefits by J.K's government, there has a constant wind down of experienced supervisors.

Are the RNZAF personnel being re-hired as contractors, effectively doing their old job, or has the govt found a new source of skilled techs

 

[Rob c]

Are the RNZAF personnel being re-hired as contractors, effectively doing their old job, or has the govt found a new source of skilled techs

This was not disclosed, but I suspect that at least some of the contractors would be ex service, at a premium over service salaries. The hole current system most likely recommended by treasury has driven defence to it's knee's. I remember when they introduced the capital charge, treasury, it self said it was not totally appropriate for defence, yet they still went ahead and did it on the basis that they wanted every department to be the same. This made it easy for treasury and a nightmare for defence.

 

[Hawkeye69]

No sorry mate. I’m sure I read or was told that there are only about 3 Seasprite airframes operating at the moment - I believe a couple are out due to the radar being r/s and parts to repair them are not available (possibly they are still flying but zero to little capability)….

That’s a very dire situation, I just can’t see any political appetite to turn it around anytime soon. The way we are going the Navy will get 4x twin engined Squirrels at best.

 

[JohnJT]

Although I can’t say categorically that it’s locked in and going ahead…my understanding is that the proposed RN Wildcat deployment is intended to just tide us over. Furthermore I believe that ultimately the Wildcat won’t be on the cards as a Seasprite replacement, as when it was measured, it couldn’t fit in our ships hangers without having its weapons pylons removed (ie completely impractical). This info was relayed to me by a current serving RNZN member. The Wildcat sure has a wide berth when you have a look at stock images. Not that it means anything, but she’s not the prettiest looking bird…. (mostly said in jest so don’t clack off at me….!)
View attachment 51237 View attachment 51238

The wide weapons pylons are only required for missiles. It doesn't need them to carry torpedoes. How important a missile capability is to the NZ MOD, I have no idea.

In a lot of ways the Wildcat would be step backwards from the Seasprite; smaller, less powerful, shorter range.

 

[Bevan]

But available. And thats where I think the choice needs to be about what can be procured quickly, and not the perfect solution. Hell, lease Wildcats now and procure Romeos when they can

Although I realise what ever is selected as an interim will become the long term solution

 

[Hawkeye69]

whats stored in the US boneyard that could be restored.