MEKO A210 and new FFM can have 32VLS.(MK41) A210 has 16 nsm, the new FFM may have room for 16, Mogami does not.
The Algerian A200 has 32VLS, 16ssm, not sure what type though.
Arrowhead 140 and alpha 5000 offered also had 32VLS.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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The Algerian A200 has 32VLS, 16ssm, not sure what type though.
Arrowhead 140 and alpha 5000 offered also had 32VLS.
Given the talk of additional missiles at sea I would have thought that multiple Mk 57 VLS in addition to the proposed CWIS would be a no brainer.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Umkhonto Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM), Denel Dynamics (naval-technology.com)
The Algerian ships carry 32 VLS cells for the South African Umkhonto-IR PDMS only, I believe it's only one missile per cell.
The Mk 56 or as evolved Mk 57 PVLS is certainly interesting, semms it still only has been used on the Zumwalt's, but certainly seems outwardly to be a good option for self defence of larger fleet units. But you are still looking at 15T+ per unit, hanging that on the side of a ship could bring some big issues if not originally designed to that type of weight on a ships sides. One of the big reasons the Mk41's are centrally located and and low as possible.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
AND
The SSM were to be RBS-15 and the Denel missiles were IIRC to be the -IR variant per models displayed of the A200. In terms of SAM missile capability, it appears that this particular version of the Umkhonto missile is roughly comparable to the CAMM/Sea Ceptor with a max range of ~20 km IIRC.
Certainly capable for self-defence but I suspect might be a bit pressed if there was a need to escort and defend another vessel.
Actually the review which the government has agreed to in almost all area's specifically states 9 Tier 1's and 7 - 11 Tier 2's. So based on current plans we can safely say 3 DDG's to replace the Hobarts. Crewing all of these asset's will be a big enough problem between the SSN's, Hunters, Tier 2's with out doubling the DDG fleet.
With the extra hulls if all ships acquired assuming 100ish persons per Tier 2, 180 FFG and 200 DDG looking at crew requirements 2,780 allowing for numbers that crewed the Hobart's and Anzacs still leave's a shortfall of 740 or so, factor in support personnel on shore and easily reach 2,000 shortfall in navy personnel that we need to build up. Want to add 3 more DDG's and could add another 1,500+ in shortfall.
So unless we are at war, or their is a major geopolitical issue directly affecting us 6 DDG's will not happen.
Mark_Evans
Member
I would trade the space for that second helo for some small self defence missiles.
The new FFM which is based on Mogami is also 32 VLS, 127mm and likely room for 16 NSM. And - 90 crew. I think the 90 crew will be hard for the govt to say no to, given manpower constraints. Given that Japan will be building this newer larger version of the Mogami in the next few years, i.e. a hot line (for the first 3 RAN units), I wonder if there is some chance that we end up with it instead of the current Mogami, if the Japan option chosen. Apologies if this link has previously been posted.
Japan to procure 12 new FFM in just 5 years - Naval News
Japan will acquire a total of 12 new FFM frigates in five years from 2024 to 2028 at a very high pace, which reflects the increasingly severe security environment surrounding Japan.
www.navalnews.com
The MEKO A210 comes with 2x20 ft containers on the flight deck that can be used for defence missiles or drones or anything else that fits in a container that size.
I don't remember ever going to sea with two helos (at least on a frigate), even when in operational areas. With the number of Romeos in the air fleet, I can't see there ever being enough to do this. So I don't see the value in a second hangar.
Perhaps there is some value in something that can hold additional helo drones, but that would not need to be a full hangar.
What is that big pointy thing on top of the Mogami mast?The new FFM which is based on Mogami is also 32 VLS, 127mm and likely room for 16 NSM. And - 90 crew. I think the 90 crew will be hard for the govt to say no to, given manpower constraints. Given that Japan will be building this newer larger version of the Mogami in the next few years, i.e. a hot line (for the first 3 RAN units), I wonder if there is some chance that we end up with it instead of the current Mogami, if the Japan option chosen. Apologies if this link has previously been posted.
Japan to procure 12 new FFM in just 5 years - Naval News
Japan will acquire a total of 12 new FFM frigates in five years from 2024 to 2028 at a very high pace, which reflects the increasingly severe security environment surrounding Japan.
The extra ECCPBs have already been ordered.
www.navalnews.com
Austal Wins Contract for Additional Patrol Boats the Royal Australian Navy - Naval News
Austal has been awarded a contract for the construction of 2 additional Evolved Cape-class Patrol Boats for the Royal Australian Navy.
www.navalnews.com
This article states Australia is prepared to "Bet big " on Heavily armed occasionally crewed warships and provides some details of what such a ship will look like ,the ship in this article may carry 32 vls tubes and is not being used by any country ,this article provides some details of how these vessels may operate in conjunction with the tier one ships
www.twz.com
Australia To Bet Big On Heavily Armed, Optionally Crewed Warships
Missile-armed optionally crewed ships and new smaller frigates are just part of a transformational plan for the Australian Navy.
www.twz.com
No the government agreed to 9 Tier 1 including Hobarts and to replace the Hobarts through a process beginning in 2027 (so, according to the Minister, there are literally no current plans in relation to the matter other than to build the replacement at Osborne). They didn’t say “maintain 9 Tier 1s”. Also the review recommended 7-11 Tier 2 but the government decided on 11.
It is safe to assume that the replacement for the capability will be provided by a class of ships but it is not safe to assume that they will 3 in number, be DDGs or that they will have crews of a size expected on a DDG.
As I tried to illustrate in the previous post it is also safe to assume plans will change a lot between now and the 2040s.
I certainly agree with that statement.
The new FFM which is based on Mogami is also 32 VLS, 127mm and likely room for 16 NSM. And - 90 crew. I think the 90 crew will be hard for the govt to say no to, given manpower constraints. Given that Japan will be building this newer larger version of the Mogami in the next few years, i.e. a hot line (for the first 3 RAN units), I wonder if there is some chance that we end up with it instead of the current Mogami, if the Japan option chosen. Apologies if this link has previously been posted.
Japan to procure 12 new FFM in just 5 years - Naval News
Japan will acquire a total of 12 new FFM frigates in five years from 2024 to 2028 at a very high pace, which reflects the increasingly severe security environment surrounding Japan.
Display at Indopacific 2023 had Mogami floaties in service.
Mogami 8 - March 2025
Mogami 9 - December 2025
Mogami 10 - March 2026
Mogami 11 - December 2026
Mogami 12 - March 2027
-Next 12
FFM 1 - 2027
FFM 2 - 2028
FFM 3 - 2028
FFM 4 - 2029
FFM 5 - 2029
FFM 6 - 2030
FFM 7 - 2030
FFM 8 - 2031
FFM 9 - 2031
FFM 11 - 2032
FFM 12 - 2032
All ships operational 2033.
By the time Australia places an order for the frigates in 2025, Japan would have already cut steel on the new FFM. If the Mogami was selected, the line would have to be restarted 1.5-2 years after the last Mogamis steel was cut.
Going with new FFM, even if cut steel is 2027 instead of 2026, 3 to 5 new FFM would be in service with Japan by the time Australia gets its first at the end of the decade.
The problem with this is an Australian build of 3 would alter the Japanese delivery timeline of 12 boats.
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The Mogamis are warships not submarines.
Sorry for the pedantry but seeing ships being referred to as boats makes my eye twitch. Not necessarily, They may have room for extra capacity. Just because they are only building 2 of them a year does not mean they can only produce that many a year. I wouldn't put it past them that they could double annual production if they so desired but Japan is smart enough to know to space their builds out to keep the lines all active.
As it is Japan has been in talks with Indonesia to export 8 of them (4 built in Japan, 4 in Indonesia) even though these talks seem to have either stalled or kept very low key until a deal is done Japan wouldn't put it forth if they didn't think they could deliver on time or at least close to it.
I remember that many of us took part in theoretical discussions about similar ships on the "missile carrier" thread in 2019.This article states Australia is prepared to "Bet big " on Heavily armed occasionally crewed warships and provides some details of what such a ship will look like ,the ship in this article may carry 32 vls tubes and is not being used by any country ,this article provides some details of how these vessels may operate in conjunction with the tier one ships
Australia To Bet Big On Heavily Armed, Optionally Crewed Warships
Missile-armed optionally crewed ships and new smaller frigates are just part of a transformational plan for the Australian Navy.
Austal's fingerprints are all over this. They are the prefered Australian ship builder, are currently experimenting with the technology and are involved with providing autonomous vessels to the USN. While there are many sceptial about how mature this capability might be it wouldn't surprise me is it was the first cab off the rank as far as the delivery of new vessels to the RAN was concerned.
Austal USA delivers EPF-13; the US Navy's largest surface vessel with autonomous capability
COMPANY ANNOUNCEMENT 20 FEBRUARY 2023 Austal USA delivers EPF-13; the US Navy's Largest Surface Ship with Autonomous Capability Austal Limited (Austal) (ASX: ASB) is pleased to announce Austal USA has delivered Expeditionary Fast Transport USNS Apalachicola (EPF 13) to the United States Navy...