Hamas-Israeli War 2023

[Ananda]

just don't want to admit that the entire Arab world gave the Palestinians a giant middle finger.

Because that is on your dream. You just don't want to face the fact the Arabs (like the Saudi's Foreign Minister said) won't play with Israel tune on accepting refugees without right of return. Something that Israeli like you have wet dream to shift the weights to Arab Neighbors. That's the fact and not your ridiculous the Arabs gave Palestinian giant Middle finger. They gave the Israel giant Middle fingers for not accepting Israel effort to shift the weights.

 

[Ananda]

But you are right, the West should stay out of it and let the locals sort it out by themselves, even if it means the Palestinians will keep suffering for the foreseeable future.

The Palestinian will continue suffering because Israel. Israel only able to do this for mostly US and UK take blind eyes. So if US and UK and the West stay out of this, will see how long Israel can play it alone.

The rest of most Global South increasingly behind Palestinian, even the Arabs with their own way increasingly stay away from any further normalisation with Israel, until matter of Palestinian resolved. Yes, will see how Israel will do it if US, UK and the West staying out even from Israel. Off course that's a very big 'if'.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Because that is on your dream. You just don't want to face the fact the Arabs (like the Saudi's Foreign Minister said) won't play with Israel tune on accepting refugees without right of return. Something that Israeli like you have wet dream to shift the weights to Arab Neighbors. That's the fact and not your ridiculous the Arabs gave Palestinian giant Middle finger. They gave the Israel giant Middle fingers for not accepting Israel effort to shift the weights.

I'm not sure whether this is a line the Arab world wants to take because that would mean they'd all have to grant the right of return to what is now over half the Israeli population.

Somehow it's just hard to believe the Arab leaders are these benevolent people who definitely listen to their people.

 

[Ananda]

they'd all have to grant the right of return to what is now over half the Israeli population.

Right of return is not something the Arabs can grant, if they can they already give it to Palestinians and be done with it. This is something that the Saudi's foreign minister said in that interview. They will not accept the Palestinians as refugees because it is shifting the weights to them. That's the big middle finger the Saudi's gave to Israel. Sort out your own weights with Palestinians don't shift it to us. There's never been a line the Arab want to take the 'weights'.

it's just hard to believe the Arab leaders are these benevolent people who definitely listen to their people.

Depends on what's benevolence in here. If that means they give financial securities towards their own citizen, then the Gulf Kingdoms give it. If benevolence towards other Arabs that come as work visa, no they are not. They treated those Arabs from Yaman, Egypt etc not much difference then Workers from India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.

If they listen to their street mood, that's definitely what they are doing. This is why the Saudi's say no normalization with Israel can move on, as long as Palestinians issue not being solve. This is also why the Arabs not getting involve with Houthi's US lead operations in red sea. All those things they believe will aggravated their populations emotion, which basically increasingly pro Palestinians.

That's why I say it is only your dream the rest of Arab give giant middle finger to Palestinians. What happens now in their street and their officials stands, the Arab give giant middle finger to Israel, not Palestinians. If they aren't done that, they already accepting those Palestinians as refugees, knowing very well they will be their burden. Because Israel will not give them right of return. Knowing very well that's what Israel wants to emptying Gaza from Palestinians and shift the 'weights' to Arab neighbors. That's ethnic cleansing on Israel dream.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Right of return is not something the Arabs can grant, if they can they already give it to Palestinians and be done with it. This is something that the Saudi's foreign minister said in that interview. They will not accept the Palestinians as refugees because it is shifting the weights to them

I was talking about the almost 1 million Jews expelled from Arab states.
Of course they can grant them and even the Palestinians a right of return. They just don't want to, because they want others to do it for them.
And they cannot deny their own complicity in the whole conflict so they're not refusing to have the weight shifted to them - rather they seek to shift the weight away from them.

If they listen to their street mood, that's definitely what they are doing.

They cultivated that "street mood", arguably one of the dumbest policies in the Arab world.

 

[Feanor]

I agree that one should not meddle in other peoples affairs unless it becomes really necessary to do so. Thus the West should stay out of the Israel/Palestinian conflicts as much as possible even if that is probably very negative for the Palestinians. The irony is that Palestinians don't want the West to stay out; they want the West and in particular Europe to become more involved, and push harder on Israel to stop the war in Gaza, and to stop the "no right to return" policy, stop the occupation of the West bank. But you are right, the West should stay out of it and let the locals sort it out by themselves, even if it means the Palestinians will keep suffering for the foreseeable future.

How about having "staying out" include not selling weapons to either side? Now are the Palestinians happier with the west involved or not involved?

 

[Ananda]

was talking about the almost 1 million Jews expelled from Arab states.

Expelled? They are moving out voluntary from Arab land like Morroco and Tunisia due to incentive from Israel for all Jews to settle on Palestine land. Don't tell me you forgot on Aliyah.

course they can grant them and even the Palestinians a right of return. They just don't want to, because they want others to do it for them.

Palestinian right of return grant by them ? Is the Arab states that now control Palestine land ? The Right of return for Palestinian is to land of Palestine, not to Arab states lands. They are not originate from Arab states, but originate from territory of Palestine. No matter how Israel try to rewrite the history.

rather they seek to shift the weight away from them.

Because the weights is not for them to begin with. The Arab states not the ones that take over and expelled Palestinian from their land. Again that's the fact no matter how hard Israel try to rewrite the history.

They cultivated that "street mood", arguably one of the dumbest policies in the Arab world.

Like the Israel administration not trying the same thing. Only call it popular democracy will. Street mood is popular mood of the population. The Arabs mostly not democracy, but they will not going to take policy that against their population popular mood. Especially for the sake of Israel.

 

[T.C.P]

Yet they are very much fine with Europe taking in millions of middle eastern refugees.

If Europe had not taken part in Mid East wars, then they would not have had to deal with the mess. Not even including the 2003 invasion or selling weapons to Saudi to bomb Yemen etc etc. Just focusing on Libya alone. How much of the refugeee crisis could have been avoided if they had just refrained from bombing Libya. Europe does not get to cry about refugees when they had a direct and indirect hand in makng them.

 

[aussienscale]

But they have that right to return. Not something that can be said to any Palestinian so far that has been force from their land.

You have mane the above statements, and variances of it a number of times in your replies, what is your definition of a "Palestinian" and what is "Their" land ? It is a very loose and generic statement, so curious what you actually mean by this ?

 

[Big_Zucchini]

@Ananda I'm ethnically Russian. My brother connected strongly to his Russian heritage, and I did the opposite - I was indifferent to my Russian heritage and considered myself Israeli first. Still, we both have the same understanding of Russian culture simply because we learned it by engaging with actual people. Not articles, not TV, just people.
My father on the other hand, he lived all over the place. East Germany, Ukraine, Russia, even relatives all the way in Vladivostok. Yet he's a full on vatnik because the last contact he had with an actual Russian was in the 90's. He cannot bridge those 30 years of cultural change.

So my sincere advice to you - talk to actual people. Now, I don't think there are Palestinians here on this forum but there are plenty of other forums and social media you can use for that. I'm an Israeli. You have the tools to gain perspective on a topic that you don't seem to understand. Use them.

If Europe had not taken part in Mid East wars, then they would not have had to deal with the mess. Not even including the 2003 invasion or selling weapons to Saudi to bomb Yemen etc etc. Just focusing on Libya alone. How much of the refugeee crisis could have been avoided if they had just refrained from bombing Libya. Europe does not get to cry about refugees when they had a direct and indirect hand in makng them.

Are you sure you want to make this argument? I need you to be absolutely sure - because I already have my "Every terrorist attack on European soil is an invitation to colonize the middle east" argument, just for the sake of symmetry.

 

[Ananda]

what is your definition of a "Palestinian" and what is "Their" land ? It is a very loose and generic statement, so curious what you actually mean by this ?

I put it again this video on Daniel Levy interview. Again this is not Interview that many Israeli like. So for your question who is the Palestinian ? They are those who are indigenous of that land. The land that use to call Palestine teritory. People that their families already rooted in that teritory for centuries. That include whether Muslim, Christians or Jews that has been in centuries living in what legally call Teritory of Palestine.

How those people Right of Return is toward Arabs states teritories, when they are originally already rooted in that teritory ? This why the Arabs like the Saudis will not accept them as refugees. Because the Arabs knows well once they become refugess, they will never be accepted back to Palestine, by the state that currently control the area.

 

[Ananda]

my sincere advice to you - talk to actual people

I allready talk with some Palestinians, real Palestinians that are now has no right to return. Palestinians that their families already live for centuries in teritory of Palestine. Have been already got expulsion after 1948.

Those are real people that have rights of return to that teritory. People that after 1948 move like beggers from one state to another. Some rebuild their lives and become professionals in my Industry. However doesn't make them lost their right to return to their original root land.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I allready talk with some Palestinians, real Palestinians that are now has no right to return. Palestinians that their families already live for centuries in teritory of Palestine. Have been already got expulsion after 1948.

Those are real people that have rights of return to that teritory.

Great and have you ever talked to Israelis? Because judging by your use of the word "Israeli" as a derogatory word I assume the answer is likely "no" except for the occasional jabs.

 

[Ananda]

Great and have you ever talked to Israelis?

I work in financial industry, off course I have run with some Israeli. So does running with Palestinians in my Industry. Have you ever talk with Palestinians especially those that already expelled after 1948? When Israel come to being ?

Seems you are the one that only have occasional jabs with Palestinians. Especially those that already have no rights to return.

Btw Isreali is not derogatory term, if you ever talk outside occasional jabs with Arabs and Palestinians.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Regarding a potential Israel-Hezbollah war, there is a point to be made about cluster munitions. Just a thought based on this post:

Israeli Army News & Discussion

I believe this is the first time we're seeing Trophy's shutters opening prior to interception: I wanted to link to an interesting post made by an analyst I follow, but unfortunately his website's down. There he asserted that APS typically have low munition counts (4-6) because the relative...

www.defencetalk.com

In 2006, Israel did not seem to be ready for a "hybrid" threat posed by Hezbollah. One of the critiques toward the army post-war was that common drills were not exercised frequently enough, and that wherever they were - the army was too rigid with them. Hezbollah's rockets were seen as a conventional artillery threat and handled like it. Preemptive fire consisted of 155mm HE shells toward the launch spots, despite the launchers being embedded into the ground and widely dispersed. Cluster munitions were also used in large numbers for counter-battery fire. These were arguably more effective, but Hezbollah's launchers were often single-use and thus already depleted by then. Large quantities of submunitions were left on Lebanese soil with little actual effect during the war, and were thus mostly just a hazard to everyone around in the following years.

In a future war, the IDF will take a more preemptive approach to said artillery threats, but cluster munitions still do take a significant part of that approach. Incendiary munitions will be necessary to clear forests, and cluster munitions will be necessary to hit the dispersed launchers. Therefore their use, although controversial, is inevitable. And I think it is something that western nations should take into account. The voluntary ban on cluster munitions is counter-productive. Instead, countries should strive to improve methods of documentation and reduction of dud rates.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

I work in financial industry, off course I have run with some Israeli. So does running with Palestinians in my Industry. Have you ever talk with Palestinians especially those that already expelled after 1948? When Israel come to being ?

Seems you are the one that only have occasional jabs with Palestinians. Especially those that already have no rights to return.

Btw Isreali is not derogatory term, if you ever talk outside occasional jabs with Arabs and Palestinians.

Yeah of course I meet 100 year old Palestinians every day. It's such a common occurrence. (That was sarcasm).
If you believe what you said (I doubt it), yet still believe that Jews all just happily left their homes and communities, coincidentally in such huge numbers over so little time, and from such a vast poorly connected region, and that there were definitely no pogroms and persecution that led to this, then that's either you being willfully ignorant, or you just like talking about topics you know nothing about.

 

[Ananda]

then that's either you being willfully ignorant, or you just like talking about topics you know nothing about.

well seems you are also clearly choose to be ignorant on the plight of Palestinian that's been uprooted and expelled from their land. Your comparison of Jews moving to Israel through Aliyah scheme, and compare it with Palestinian that's being force to move out from territory of Palestine clearly ridiculous.

Granted my experience mostly with Palestinian expats. The expats that's already move from country to country because they have been expelled forcefully from their land, forcefully taken from their roots. This is again shown why Arabs will not going to participate with Palestinian refugees (as my initial point from begining), not because your assessment of Arabs already giving middle finger to Palestinians.

That's the big ignorant on the Palestinian and Arabs causes. However off course understandable coming from East Euro Israelites like you.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

That's the big ignorant on the Palestinian and Arabs causes. However off course understandable coming from East Euro Israelites like you.

You know, saying "You dirty ____ (insert ethnicity here)" isn't a good argument.

 

[Ananda]

know, saying "You dirty ____ (insert ethnicity here)" isn't a good argument.

Inserting dirty is your own fantasy. While you in some of your posts already downplaying the Arabs. Is it ok to call down Arab, while not Israeli or Israelites? Are you playing antisemitism card as many Israel do on any arguments that consider not friendly with Israel cause? Is it only alright to downplaying Arab cause but god forbid on Israel ones ?

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Inserting dirty is your own fantasy. While you in some of your posts already downplaying the Arabs. Is it ok to call down Arab, while not Israeli or Israelites? Are you playing antisemitism card as many Israel do on any arguments that consider not friendly with Israel cause? Is it only alright to downplaying Arab cause but god forbid on Israel ones ?

I never disrespected you for being an Arab or generalized you as whatever ethnicity. You have however constantly referred to me as "you Israelis".
It is nice that you think I play the antisemitism card but I am not Jewish, and haven't been for a very long time.

Listen if you want to express an ideology of radicalm islam - fine. I've personally seen many such people. But you should understand that it's not going to be very convincing to those who grew outside this sphere of influence.