Hamas-Israeli War 2023

[GermanHerman]

Hamas tunnel was discovered directly under UNRWA's HQ.
Philippe Lazzarini, current Commissioner-General of UNRWA, says UNRWA was unaware of this, despite the IDF previously inviting UNRWA officials to tour tunnels and explaining to them about the threat. Lazzarini himself was also invited, but declined the invitation.
Inside the UNRWA HQ building, cables going underground were in plain sight.
Such revelations only contribute to a justification of dismantling UNRWA, and hopefully other ultra corrupt institutions, and replacing them with goal-driven ones.

UNRWA head says agency was in dark about Hamas center under Gaza HQ; Israel: ‘You knew’

Philippe Lazzarini says allegations should be probed, any other 'suspicious' activity reported to UN; COGAT says officials ignored information; Katz calls for agency chief's ouster

www.timesofisrael.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1756396240311398549

This seems to be contested:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1756821215212130459

Is there any footage of the command center underneath al-Shifa yet?

I think Israel is not doing a good job at actualy backing their claims up with evidence, as discussed in the linked threat journalists are not actualy able to walk through the tunnel and visit the data center but have to rely on footage from the IDF.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

This seems to be contested:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1756821215212130459

Is there any footage of the command center underneath al-Shifa yet?

I think Israel is not doing a good job at actualy backing their claims up with evidence, as discussed in the linked threat journalists are not actualy able to walk through the tunnel and visit the data center but have to rely on footage from the IDF.

I understand why the expectations were high but it is simply not realistic to ask the IDF to show an up and running command center under Shifa. When the IDF arrived there it was already stripped and evacuated, much of it was inaccessible by policy of maximum risk aversion in tunnels, and the complex itself was grounded by reality of austere environment and resource conservation.

Hamas's demonstrated sophistication is in its underground communication networks and methodologies. What does a Hamas operative need inside such an HQ? A VoIP phone, a laptop, and necessities like water, food, and sanitation. Take those away and what do you have? An empty room.

When the IDF reached and explored Shifa's underground network, it found tunnels furnished for comfort, certainly not something you prioritize in combat or logistical tunnels. They were very much real and documented, and journalists visited them. But it should have been obvious that none would find inside a tunnel something like this:


Regarding the data center under UNRWA - the IDF has shown irrefutable evidence (in the video) of a Hamas tunnel going under an UNRWA school, the UNRWA HQ, and its contents.

The world seems convinced of UNRWA's complicity in Hamas's schemes, and donors have already withdrawn funding - something they don't usually do without actionable intel. The allegations are coming from every direction and regarding every aspect of their work - each verified and presented to authorities for examination. The IDF has a solid track record of credibility regarding its combat operations and is particularly transparent with the international community. Even if the current evidence (which I consider convincing) didn't exist, I see no motive to doubt their claims. We know for a fact UNRWA and Hamas are intertwined. We know they allow Hamas to store weapons inside and build tunnels under their facilities. And we know UNRWA is Hamas's key supplier of war resources.
So yet another tunnel is not out of the ordinary. Why would they lie specifically here?

 

[Big_Zucchini]

More footage from the rescue, this time helmet cam POV of a YAMAM (SWAT) force.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1757466314413650121

Yahya Sinwar was seen with his family in a CCTV footage grabbed by the IDF from a tunnel in Khan Younis. It is possible the first man that appears in the footage is his brother Mohammed - also wanted.
The IDF has also released the layout of this tunnel. It is exceptionally long.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1757489741459607961

 

[Big_Zucchini]

@GermanHerman Coincidentally, NYT published a long piece about a Hamas HQ under Shifa hospital at around the same time you asked about it.

A Tunnel Offers Clues to How Hamas Uses Gaza’s Hospitals

New evidence shows Hamas operated under Al-Shifa Hospital but falls short of proving Israel’s early claims that there was a command center there.

www.nytimes.com

Apparently NYT reviewed classified (therefore unpublished) intel showing the tunnel was about twice longer than seen in the IDF's videos. This intel was also confirmed by the US.
The cited reason for the IDF not showing the full tunnel is said to be a mix of circumstances such as a ceasefire agreement in which IDF agreed to withdraw from Shifa, and urgency to demolish the tunnel to remove a hazard and move forward.

To be honest - I was perplexed by how long the IDF stayed there. It came to fight a war, not run a PR battle that naturally risked those soldiers and forced a tempo reduction. Yet I do understand the need for PR.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Netanyahu finally unveils his own day-after plan, after Lapid and Gantz already published theirs. In essence, his plan is not much different, with the exception of the degree of integration of the PA into a future Gaza. Lapid for example promoted a revitalized PA in a format somewhat resembling the US's own, while Netanyahu does not rule out an expanded role for it, but for now relies primarily on local cooperative civilian elements - something that existed in Lapid's proposal as well.

Link

Unfortunately, for now I could only find a Hebrew-only version and it's in image format so I'll translate:

The Day After Hamas - Principles

Immediate Term
IDF shall proceed with the war until it achieves its goals: Destruction of the military capabilities and governmental infrastructure of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad(PIJ); Return of all hostages; Prevention of threats from Gaza for a long period of time.

Mid Term
Security Level

1. Israel shall preserve operational freedom across the entire Gaza strip, with no time limitation, for the prevention of renewal of terror and thwarting of threats from Gaza.
2. The security perimeter established inside Gaza in its border area with Israel shall exist as long as there is a security need for it.
3. Israel shall enact as "southern lockdown" in the Gaza-Egypt border, for the purpose of preventing rearmament and buildup of terrorist organizations in Gaza. The "southern lockdown" shall operate, as much as possible, in cooperation with Egypt and with US assistance, and shall be based on (technological) measures to prevent smuggling from Egypt, both from above and below ground, including in the Rafah crossing.
4. Israel shall control security across all territories west of Jordan, including Gaza's surrounding area, for the prevention of force buildup of terror elements in the Judea and Samaria region and Gaza and for thwarting of threats emanating from them to Israel.
5. Gaza shall be entirely demilitarized from any military capability beyond those necessary for maintenance of public order. The responsibility for implementation of this goal and for overseeing its existence in the forseeable future is entrusted in Israel.

Civilian Level

1. As much as possible, civilian management and the responsibility for public order in Gaza shall be based on local elements with management experience. These local elements shall not be identified with nations or organs supporting terrorism, nor will they receive payment from them.
2. A comprehensive de-radicalization program shall be advanced across all religious, educational, and welfare institutions in Gaza, this as much as possible in cooperation with Arab nations with previous experience in de-radicalization in their territories.
3. Israel shall act to shut down UNRWA, whose employees were involved in the October 7th massacre, and that taught terror and the destruction of Israel in its schools. Israel shall work to cease UNRWA activities in Gaza and replace it with other responsible international welfare agencies.
4. Restoration of Gaza shall be possible only after the completion of the demilitarization and de-radicalization phases. The restoration program shall be conducted with the funding and leadership of nations approved by Israel.

Long Term
Ground Rules For Future Arrangement

1. Israel categorically rejects international dictates regarding a permanent arrangement with the Palestinians. Shall arrangement shall only be reached through direct negotiations, without preconditions.
2. Israel shall continue to resist a unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state. Shall recognition following the October 7th massacre shall bestow a massive and unprecedented reward for terrorism and prevent any future peace agreement.

 

[2007yellow430]

Israel has created 2,000,000 terrorists. The manner that Israel went to war pretty much guaranteed that. you don’t force evacuations of this many people without consequences. 5, 10 years from now, this will be a factor. While no one apparently has done a survey on this issue, it’s pretty self evident. The level of destruction: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...it-shelling-israel-defends-evacuat-rcna120419

 

[John Fedup]

Israel has created 2,000,000 terrorists. The manner that Israel went to war pretty much guaranteed that. you don’t force evacuations of this many people without consequences. 5, 10 years from now, this will be a factor. While no one apparently has done a survey on this issue, it’s pretty self evident. The level of destruction: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...it-shelling-israel-defends-evacuat-rcna120419

Brutally slaughtering Israeli civilians by Hamas pretty much guaranteed the current response by the IDF.

 

[2007yellow430]

Brutally slaughtering Israeli civilians by Hamas pretty much guaranteed the current response by the IDF.

actually using US tactics would have avoid most of this. Use of unguided bombs guaranteed this.

Art

 

[Feanor]

Brutally slaughtering Israeli civilians by Hamas pretty much guaranteed the current response by the IDF.

The IDF isn't an animal or a machine. It's an institution governed by presumably intelligent human beings. In other words their response is not a given reaction to the Hamas attack. If the consequence of IDF action is bad for Israel (emphasis on if) then they should not act that way and if their authorities allowed them to or indeed empowered them to, then they are very much to blame for the consequences. If I understand @2007yellow430 point correctly, this isn't a question of justice - it's a question of desirable outcomes.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. But Israel has to live where it lives. It can't just pick up and move. It has to recognize certain realities and plan for them accordingly. And it's also bound by certain rules and expectations, lest it be little better then Hamas themselves. "They started it" isn't a good argument, especially when one considers the history.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Israel has created 2,000,000 terrorists. The manner that Israel went to war pretty much guaranteed that. you don’t force evacuations of this many people without consequences. 5, 10 years from now, this will be a factor. While no one apparently has done a survey on this issue, it’s pretty self evident

actually using US tactics would have avoid most of this. Use of unguided bombs guaranteed this.

All your arguments are contradictory to one another.

Your arguments:

1. "Israel has created 2 million terrorists - No, it has not. It has dismantled 2 terrorist organizations and confiscated the PA's national terror budget."

2. "The manner that Israel went to war pretty much guaranteed that" - Disproven by all your following arguments.

3. "You don't force evacuations of this many people without consequences. 5, 10 years from now, this will be a factor." - The consequences are far fewer Palestinian civilian casualties, and added risks to the IDF and kidnapped Israelis. This nullifies argument #2.

4. "actually using US tactics would have avoid most of this. Use of unguided bombs guaranteed this." - Israeli and US tactics are very similar, and in many areas Israeli ones are more refined and humane.
Israel's usage of precision guided munitions is very high compared to other conflicts.

So what are you suggesting? To not evacuate civilians in order to kill more of them? If so, why suggest avoiding unguided munitions? Or do you want to use less unguided munitions, but then why ask to prevent civilians from evacuating?

It is evident that you do not understand how urban warfare, or any type of warfare, actually works. It is also evident that you do not understand what actually constitutes "US tactics" or "Israeli tactics".
Any stage of warfare in Gaza was preceded by mass evacuation of civilians into areas where they could get access to aid and shelter, bombing of critical Hamas infrastructure and shaping the area for a ground incursion, then a ground incursion accompanied by limited CAS to surgically root out terrorists and their infrastructure until an area is cleared. In parallel to all this, COGAT would set up aid distribution capabilities and vital infrastructure in Gaza to prevent a humanitarian collapse.
In the next stage - incursion of Rafah, civilians will first all return to their homes north of Rafah, and the IDF will operate on a vacated area.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Hamas is a terrorist organization. But Israel has to live where it lives. It can't just pick up and move. It has to recognize certain realities and plan for them accordingly. And it's also bound by certain rules and expectations, lest it be little better then Hamas themselves. "They started it" isn't a good argument, especially when one considers the history.

The certain reality is that Hamas must be eradicated.
"They started it" is not always a good argument, but it does highlight how throughout the entire history of the region, Palestinians resorted to terrorism and violent invasions of their neighbors (Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Kuwait etc), and were subsequently shown the consequences of one's actions. They could live in peace and prosperity - had they chosen it.

 

[Feanor]

The certain reality is that Hamas must be eradicated.
"They started it" is not always a good argument, but it does highlight how throughout the entire history of the region, Palestinians resorted to terrorism and violent invasions of their neighbors (Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Kuwait etc), and were subsequently shown the consequences of one's actions. They could live in peace and prosperity - had they chosen it.

This isn't relevant to the point at hand. @2007yellow430 is arguing that Israeli action is counterproductive in that it creates more issues that it resolves. Regardless of whether this is true or not, my point is that @John Fedup 's response is fundamentally wrong because it attempts to argue that the actions are justified from some sort of moral (or possible legal?) stance. This is irrelevant. Israel's actions may be morally just. They may be morally reprehensible. This has nothing to do with whether they create more terrorists than they destroy. This was my point. In my opinion Israeli action ought to be goal oriented (note this is not a claim about whether it is or it isn't, merely the argument that it ought to be, any inferences anyone makes are entirely their own).

 

[koxinga]

In my opinion Israeli action ought to be goal oriented (note this is not a claim about whether it is or it isn't, merely the argument that it ought to be, any inferences anyone makes are entirely their own).

Are there any reason to suggest that current Israeli actions are not goal oriented?

The stated goals of the destruction of Hamas and the retrieval of all hostages seems clear. The details of what Israel defines as "destruction of Hamas" probably has a deeper and more precise criteria (e.g elimination of key leaders, active combat units in the organisation, destruction of manufacturing capabilities, arms storage and their capacity to wage war etc.) that isn't disclosed.

How the goals are being achieved are the issues that raises the most discussion/concerns.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

This isn't relevant to the point at hand. @2007yellow430 is arguing that Israeli action is counterproductive in that it creates more issues that it resolves. Regardless of whether this is true or not, my point is that @John Fedup 's response is fundamentally wrong because it attempts to argue that the actions are justified from some sort of moral (or possible legal?) stance.

One of the key arguments of Hamas supporters is that any Israeli reaction in itself is wrong/counter-productive and that Israel should have just not reacted to it at all. This isn't something you'll see on this forum but on social media it is very common, including from rather authoritative/influencial figures.

Dissecting @2007yellow430 's comment shows that this is probably what he was suggesting as well.

 

[2007yellow430]

One of the key arguments of Hamas supporters is that any Israeli reaction in itself is wrong/counter-productive and that Israel should have just not reacted to it at all. This isn't something you'll see on this forum but on social media it is very common, including from rather authoritative/influencial figures.

Dissecting @2007yellow430 's comment shows that this is probably what he was suggesting as well.

nonsense. Israel has guided weapons. They chose not to use them in lieu of unguided weapons. Say what you will, but the total destruction of residences in Gaza and the uprooting of their citizens will come back to bite Israel. that was my point, color it anyway you like. Long term: this was stupid, but consistent with the thinking over there. BTW I’ve got cousins living their as Israelis.

Art

 

[Big_Zucchini]

nonsense. Israel has guided weapons. They chose not to use them in lieu of unguided weapons

Just because you say that - doesn't mean it's true. Can you prove it? Because there is overwhelming and irrefutable evidence of mass usage of PGMs in Gaza.
Provide evidence that at least a majority of munitions dropped in populated areas are unguided and then we can talk.

uprooting of their citizens will come back to bite Israel.

I earlier inferred from your words that you call for the deliberate targeting and elimination of civilians, and you didn't deny that, instead you only reiterate it now, so I will assume that you simply accepted my assumption as correct.
Deliberately targeting civilians is something that Israel doesn't do so you can't say it will come to bite back Israel. Rather a correct phrasing would be "If Israel will choose to target civilians, it will come to bite it". But to make such assertion one has to first explain how that situation would even come true, because it doesn't seem we're heading there.

Say what you will, but the total destruction of residences in Gaza

Israel did not destroy any residences in Gaza. Hamas did. Any destruction in Gaza and any casualty of this war is exclusively the responsibility of Hamas.

 

[Feanor]

Are there any reason to suggest that current Israeli actions are not goal oriented?

You'll have to ask the person making that argument.

One of the key arguments of Hamas supporters is that any Israeli reaction in itself is wrong/counter-productive and that Israel should have just not reacted to it at all. This isn't something you'll see on this forum but on social media it is very common, including from rather authoritative/influencial figures.

Dissecting @2007yellow430 's comment shows that this is probably what he was suggesting as well.

That I would firmly disagree with. Hamas' actions required a response, and a military one. It was practically an invasion.

Israel did not destroy any residences in Gaza. Hamas did. Any destruction in Gaza and any casualty of this war is exclusively the responsibility of Hamas.

This is simply not true. Israel has fired ordinance that damaged and destroyed residential structures. Even if Hamas was hiding in the buildings in question, it doesn't change the fact that Israel did the destroying. You can argue Hamas is to blame for the destruction, but I think @2007yellow430 's point is that ordinary residents of Gaza won't see it that way.

 

[2007yellow430]

One of the key arguments of Hamas supporters is that any Israeli reaction in itself is wrong/counter-productive and that Israel should have just not reacted to it at all. This isn't something you'll see on this forum but on social media it is very common, including from rather authoritative/influencial figures.

Dissecting @2007yellow430 's comment shows that this is probably what he was suggesting as well.

it’s clear you have confused Hamas with the Gaza inhabitants. the kids didn’t do this. Most of their parents didn’t do this. The problem is that most Israelis don’t distinguish between them. That’s the issue. It’s unfortunate you don’t seem to get this. Most of the world does.

Art

 

[Big_Zucchini]

it’s clear you have confused Hamas with the Gaza inhabitants. the kids didn’t do this. Most of their parents didn’t do this. The problem is that most Israelis don’t distinguish between them. That’s the issue. It’s unfortunate you don’t seem to get this. Most of the world does.

Art

You lied on every comment you made and failed to verify your false claims and answer any questions. Therefore I must ask - what are you trying to achieve?

 

[2007yellow430]

You lied on every comment you made and failed to verify your false claims and answer any questions. Therefore I must ask - what are you trying to achieve?

your comment doesn’t deserve an answer.