Royal Norwegian Navy (RNoN) News and Discussion

[OldNavy63]

The link below is an analysis by Navy Lookout into the Nov 2018 loss of the Norwegian frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad after its collision with the oil tanker Sola TS.

Learning the lessons – the loss of the Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad - Navy Lookout

In 2021 the Accident Investigation Board - Norway (AIBN) published a detailed report covering the loss of HNoMS Helge Ingstad after she collided with an oil tanker in November 2018. There is much to be learned from this event that is applicable to the RN and global navies. In this in-depth...

www.navylookout.com

 

[ngatimozart]

The link below is an analysis by Navy Lookout into the Nov 2018 loss of the Norwegian frigate HNoMS Helge Ingstad after its collision with the oil tanker Sola TS.

Learning the lessons – the loss of the Norwegian frigate Helge Ingstad - Navy Lookout

In 2021 the Accident Investigation Board - Norway (AIBN) published a detailed report covering the loss of HNoMS Helge Ingstad after she collided with an oil tanker in November 2018. There is much to be learned from this event that is applicable to the RN and global navies. In this in-depth...

www.navylookout.com

Very interesting reading. A cascade of errors and a wake up lesson for the RNoN. Also lessons for other navies as well.

 

[John Fedup]

I don’t understand why the AIS was turned off while approaching a port in home waters in the dark with commercial traffic around. Probably some changes for the Norwegian vessel traffic management team are in order as well.

High operation tempo, training, and crew experience, all important considerations for the RAN and RCN with all the new vessels planned for the 2030s. The RAN also has the huge huge crewing challenge for the SSN fleet.

 

[Redlands18]

Norway Seeks International Partners for Future Frigate - Naval News
Norway has announced it is in the very early stages of looking for International partners for acquiring 6 new Frigates to replace the 4 remaining Fridtjof Nansen class. Though AAW and ASuW will be important, ASW will be the primary role. They are looking at possibly joining an existent production line with limited changes. The RNoN has only just over 4000 personnel so I would expect lean crewing to be a major factor. This could be a fiercely fought competition with a number of contenders with hot production lines of vessels that fit the bill.

 

[ngatimozart]

Norway Seeks International Partners for Future Frigate - Naval News
Norway has announced it is in the very early stages of looking for International partners for acquiring 6 new Frigates to replace the 4 remaining Fridtjof Nansen class. Though AAW and ASuW will be important, ASW will be the primary role. They are looking at possibly joining an existent production line with limited changes. The RNoN has only just over 4000 personnel so I would expect lean crewing to be a major factor. This could be a fiercely fought competition with a number of contenders with hot production lines of vessels that fit the bill.

They should consider partnering with Poland on their AH140 program.

 

[Redlands18]

They should consider partnering with Poland on their AH140 program.

The Netherlands and Belgium Sign Final Agreement for ASWF Frigates - Naval News
The Dutch-Belgian Frigate project is another that you would think would be seriously looked at.

 

[swerve]

Timing? When does NZ want its ANZAC replacement to enter service? The Dutch/Belgian frigates are expected to commission after 2030, I think.

 

[Redlands18]

Timing? When does NZ want its ANZAC replacement to enter service? The Dutch/Belgian frigates are expected to commission after 2030, I think.

Dutch Navy's ASW Frigates to enter service in 2029 - Naval News
Netherlands 2029, Belgium 1 year later and the other 2 after that. Certainly looks on paper to suit both Norway and NZ, timing wise, Norway is replacing the current fleet of 4 (but current requirement is for 5 vessels) with 6 new ships, so lead ship will probably be a replacement for the Helge Ingstad.

 

[John Fedup]

Timing? When does NZ want its ANZAC replacement to enter service? The Dutch/Belgian frigates are expected to commission after 2030, I think.

Perhaps the question should be when does Treasury want a replacement as they seem to be able to screw any defence procurement proposed by a NZ GoD.

 

[Rob c]

Perhaps the question should be when does Treasury want a replacement as they seem to be able to screw any defence procurement proposed by a NZ GoD.

Treasury will want to replace them with Cook Strait ferries or similar.
When it comes to defence , they have no idea. Some time ago I was talking to one of the RNZN persons who was part of the procument team for the ANZAC's and he told me that they wanted to delete the gas turbine from the design. When it was pointed out that this would make them slower than a modern container ship, treasury insisted that they get certified confirmation from the shipping companies to confirm this, before they would accept it. Every one knew this was true, eccept treasury.

 

[Meriv90]

Timing? When does NZ want its ANZAC replacement to enter service? The Dutch/Belgian frigates are expected to commission after 2030, I think.

French sensors, are they going to embark on design modification? Both Thales for the Polish and Benelux frigates.
Probably biased, but considering the Nansen class mounts US sensors and Mk.41, having the local Shipbuilder (VARD) inside Fincantieri group, the ASW optimization. They will probably aim at the Constellation class.

 

[Redlands18]

French sensors, are they going to embark on design modification? Both Thales for the Polish and Benelux frigates.
Probably biased, but considering the Nansen class mounts US sensors and Mk.41, having the local Shipbuilder (VARD) inside Fincantieri group, the ASW optimization. They will probably aim at the Constellation class.

How does a Navy with 4000 people crew 6x8000t Frigates with a crew requirement of over 180 each? They currently man 4 Frigates with crew requirements of 114 each. Constellation looks great until you look at the crewing requirements, which requires a quarter of the fleet to man the Frigates only. The natural successor to the Nansen's would be the F110 from Navantia, but as to whether Norway wants to go back there again, is anyone's guess.
The Benelux Frigates while using French CMS and sensors are carrying the same weapon systems as the Nansen so will already be integrated including the NSM. Operating the same vessels as 2 NATO allies who are geographically very close would-be a plus. Norway has said they want to buy into an existing build with minimum change, to do that you have to accept compromises and in this case they are probably going to have to accept a major change in either sensors or weapons and the Constellation class have far newer generations of Spy radars and AEGIS than the Nansen's.

 

[Meriv90]

Thanks for the correction, the crew requirements didn't cross my mind.

The Military Advice of the Chief of Defence 2023

In November 2022, the Norwegian Government asked the Chief of Defence for his recommendation for how the Armed Forces should look in the future. This is the military advice of the Chief of Defence.

www.forsvaret.no

Taking a look at this report.

They could be operating under the assumption of a personel increase

 

[Redlands18]

Norway Unveils New Defence Plan, Commits to Frigate Program - Naval News

Norway announces its new long-term defence plan, the Norwegian Defence Pledge, for the period 2025 to 2036.

www.navalnews.com

Norway has released a Defence plan for the period 2025-2036, with the Navy being the biggest winner.

Submarines
Five U212CD to be ordered and an option for a sixth.
Frigates
Five new ASW frigates to be ordered from an existing line, with the first to be delivered by 2029. Interestingly Naval News has suggested, the Type 26, F-126, FDI, F-110, Constellation and the Dutch/Belgian ASWF may be the contenders.
Helicopters
No official announcement but having the Norwegian Coast Guard just start operating the MH-60R, it would have to be favourite.
Standardisation of Minor Warfare and Coast Guard vessels.
PBs, Corvettes, MCM and Auxiliaries will be condensed into two designs, a medium size vessel for coastal work and a large size vessel for ocean work.
Air Force
A long-range maritime surveillance drone for use in the high North.

Norway plans to increase Defence spending to 3% of GDP by 2036.

 

[StobieWan]

The chatter about type 26 seems to be gaining momentum - I can't remember the last time a UK yard built a large surface combatant for a European country?

Norway’s aim to purchase new frigates may impact Royal Navy’s own fleet production | Shephard

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has only so far confirmed that discussions have been taking place with BAE Systems, but a decision has yet to be made, according to The Telegraph.

www.shephardmedia.com

 

[Vivendi]

I recently listened to an interview of the Norwegian Defense Minister. He re-iterated that the five frigates will be ordered from a "close ally" and there are several options. He said it's essential that there is an efficient cost sharing agreement for upgrades etc., with the ally. He was referring to the submarine deal between Norway and Germany as an example. Germany will operate the same type of sub that they are building for Norway. He also said that they will make a decision "very soon", so I am guessing they may decide already next year (I may be wrong).

The most likely contenders IMHO are Type 26, F126, and the Dutch/Belgian ASWF. I doubt we will go for another Spanish frigate, we have had too many issues with the Nansen class!

If I were to bet I would put most of my money on Type 26 , but also some on the F126, there is a lot going on now between Norway and Germany (not just the subs).

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The most likely contenders IMHO are Type 26, F126, and the Dutch/Belgian ASWF. I doubt we will go for another Spanish frigate, we have had too many issues with the Nansen class!

If I were to bet I would put most of my money on Type 26 , but also some on the F126, there is a lot going on now between Norway and Germany (not just the subs).

It increasingly seems that the Type 26 is the sensible option for Norway.

I suppose the F126 is possible, but it's not really a frigate - more a destroyer in size. Despite this it only has 16 VLS cells. I know that's the setup for the FN class, but surely Norway would want more flexibility from extra cells. The F126 is also a lot more expensive than the Type 26 at batch 2 prices, which is probably what Norway would pay.

Plus it might mean a longer wait given that Germany only started construction on the first ship last year.

Of course, it's up to Oslo.

 

[Vivendi]

The Brits are "discreetly" pushing their stuff: x.com

For those with no access to Twitter the UK Chief of Defence staff wrote:

It was a pleasure to meet with General Kristoffersen. Few allies are more closely aligned than Britain & Norway, particularly on anti-submarine warfare, the High North & Arctic. As both nations increase defence spending, there are opportunities for even closer cooperation.

As is well known, Norway has specifically stated that:
1. They will purchase ASW frigates;
2. Those ASW frigates shall be purchased from a "close ally" and this should facilitate
3. Closer collaboration.

 

[Systems Adict]

The chatter about type 26 seems to be gaining momentum - I can't remember the last time a UK yard built a large surface combatant for a European country?

Norway’s aim to purchase new frigates may impact Royal Navy’s own fleet production | Shephard

The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has only so far confirmed that discussions have been taking place with BAE Systems, but a decision has yet to be made, according to The Telegraph.

www.shephardmedia.com

I think it would be fair to say that based on the current makeup of the RNoN fleet, that while a 'Type-26' would be an ideal vessel to acquire, the cost is 'limiting'. An alternate maybe to 'buy' into the manufacturing line, have a Type-26 Hull form produced, but don't fit ALL the same kit.

I know that may sound counter-intuitive, but hear me out...

If the design is 100% identical, it costs more.

By taking some systems / equipment out / removing compartments / having systems as 'IPMD / FFBNW', it reduces the costs, the installation / fit-out / testing time & allows RNoN to fit the equipment at a later date, or actually not fit the kit at all & use the space for something else at a later date.

NEED Hull form / need the engines / gearbox / radar / command system, but DON'T fit the Missiles / CIWS / the 5 inch gun / pull thru kit from elsewhere in the fleet / Get a smaller gun (like 76mm from Leonardo) &u REDUCE overall purchase costs.

HOWEVER - do as Australia has done & change / make different from the UK Baseline design & you costs will be MORE than a baseline ship from UK.

SA

 

[Volkodav]

This sort of reminds me of the ANZAC frigate program.

One of the contenders was the "Mini" Type 23, a reduced capability version of the RN design.

I have never seen detail of exactly was proposed but if it had followed what you proposed here Australia's highly successful ANZAC class could easily have been even more successful.