The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

[Fredled]

price for one 155mm shell had risen from 2,000 euros ($2,171) at the start of Russia’s full-scale invasion to 8,000 euros ($8,489.60).

There are at least two dozen of different 155mm shells. The most advanced being closer to a guided missile than a shell and its costs is in the 5 digits. The Excalibur costs over $60,000 and may not even be the most expensive one.
The West is favouring high precision shells because it's more effective and reduce loads om logistic.

 

[swerve]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740818663207571889

Russian ALCM shown using flares as decoys for anti air defense, close to their terminal decent.

How effective are flares against current IR SAMs? I keep reading of seekers being able to filter out things with the wrong temperature, motion, etc., & imaging infrared homing. I thought the old "head for the hottest thing in the sky" seekers had been obsolete for a long time.

 

[Feanor]

How effective are flares against current IR SAMs? I keep reading of seekers being able to filter out things with the wrong temperature, motion, etc., & imaging infrared homing. I thought the old "head for the hottest thing in the sky" seekers had been obsolete for a long time.

On the one hand we don't know the specifications of the flares, on the other hand we have Ukraine using quite a bit of older kit. I suspect it has some relevance.

 

[Ananda]

I don't know how you could have a positive view of Russian military hardware with all the losses they had... But if people don;t have the information, they can believe anything.

Who say that outside collective west people don't have the information? Do you think people outside collective West just just bunch of gullible ppl that believe more Russian propaganda then Western propaganda?

For one thing they also see Western hardware lossing in similar rate in Ukrainian hand against Russian hardware. Thus not all people outside collective West buying the idea of Uber Quality of Western hardware.

 

[seaspear]

Who say that outside collective west people don't have the information? Do you think people outside collective West just just bunch of gullible ppl that believe more Russian propaganda then Western propaganda?

For one thing they also see Western hardware lossing in similar rate in Ukrainian hand against Russian hardware. Thus not all people outside collective West buying the idea of Uber Quality of Western hardware.

When you state similar rate of western are you able to supply a link with a comparison please?, I don't dispute some losses of these but I have not come across any publications that suggests this certainly Ukrainian crews have been known to praise their survival rates after their armoured vehicle was put out of action

 

[Morgo]

For one thing they also see Western hardware lossing in similar rate in Ukrainian hand against Russian hardware. Thus not all people outside collective West buying the idea of Uber Quality of Western hardware.

Any evidence for this? Or is this your subjective judgement?

I'm not saying its not the case, but I’d be interested to hear the basis for this statement.

 

[Ananda]

Any evidence for this? Or is this your subjective judgement?

Any evidence of what? Of people outside collective West doesn't have information? Only believe in Russian propaganda?

Or people outside collective West perspective not all believe in Western Hardware Uber Quality over Russian Hardware? Well for the second I must admit it is base on my observation toward some comments from Asian online forums and media.

For one thing some begin to see those Western assets also loosing in big rate during Ukrainian offensive. Thus not all see the loosing rate of Russian/Soviet hardware in this war (on both Ukrainian and Russian hand), because simply the quality. The nature of the war also don't mean Western assets has better fortune. This is already War of attrition against all hardwares whether Russian or Western origins.

you state similar rate of western are you able to supply a link with a comparison please?, I don't dispute some losses of these but I have not come across any publications that suggests this certainly Ukrainian crews have been known to praise their survival rates after their armoured vehicle was put out of action

Most in non Western online media also see the rate of loosing in Ukrainian hand. They understand that in this war, the attrition rate also effecting against all hardware. Thus for those who in beginning already believe not all Western hardware is automatically will be better quality overall, begin regain their perspective that Russian hardware is not crap as Western media pundits try to put before.

My comments more to the idea that people outside collective West doesn't have information and only believe Russian propaganda. Also not all outside collective West already have better or positive opinions toward Russian hardware. This is perspective and perspective in all segments whether West or Non West will always have subjective judgement.

Add:
There're no OSINT rate whether from Russian and Ukrainian/West source that can shown reliable comparison rate in my opinion. However if Western Hardware doing much better attrition rate against Russian ones in Ukrainian hand, they should be in sea of azov by now. Instead they are basically bog down and in some area begin loosing what they have regain in the offensive.

That's the perspective I believe many outside collective West media or online forums see. That's not the perspective from people that have no information.

 

[Redshift]

Any evidence of what? Of people outside collective West doesn't have information? Only believe in Russian propaganda?

Or people outside collective West perspective not all believe in Western Hardware Uber Quality over Russian Hardware? Well for the second I must admit it is base on my observation toward some comments from Asian online forums and media.

For one thing some begin to see those Western assets also loosing in big rate during Ukrainian offensive. Thus not all see the loosing rate of Russian/Soviet hardware in this war (on both Ukrainian and Russian hand), because simply the quality. The nature of the war also don't mean Western assets has better fortune. This is already War of attrition against all hardwares whether Russian or Western origins.



Most in non Western online media also see the rate of loosing in Ukrainian hand. They understand that in this war, the attrition rate also effecting against all hardware. Thus for those who in beginning already believe not all Western hardware is automatically will be better quality overall, begin regain their perspective that Russian hardware is not crap as Western media pundits try to put before.

My comments more to the idea that people outside collective West doesn't have information and only believe Russian propaganda. Also not all outside collective West already have better or positive opinions toward Russian hardware. This is perspective and perspective in all segments whether West or Non West will always have subjective judgement.

Add:
There're no OSINT rate whether from Russian and Ukrainian/West source that can shown reliable comparison rate in my opinion. However if Western Hardware doing much better attrition rate against Russian ones in Ukrainian hand, they should be in sea of azov by now. Instead they are basically bog down and in some area begin loosing what they have regain in the offensive.

That's the perspective I believe many outside collective West media or online forums see. That's not the perspective from people that have no information.

I think that people were asking for evidence that

"For one thing they also see Western hardware lossing in similar rate in Ukrainian hand against Russian hardware."

That isn't just one sided propaganda from either side, is there any objective information that makes you believe that the above is true or is it just an assertion based on your own belief?

 

[Ananda]

That isn't just one sided propaganda from either side, is there any objective information that makes you believe that the above is true or is it just an assertion based on your own belief?

Read again my post. The similar rate is basically perspective that I see from some non Western media and forums. Similar rate because if they are better rate then Russian ones, the Ukrainian already in better position during their offensive.

Is there any evidence that their attrition rate better then Russian hardware ? No there isn't reliable ones that shown that. Thus most perspective really base on the progress in the ground. Again the nature of this war so far shown more or less attrition rate that are similar for all hardwares, whether Russian, Ukrainian or Western ones.

My posts mostly talk on some in non west forums and media that regain their positive perspective of Russian Hardware. That Russian hardware not as crap as Western pundits put it before in this war. Those non collective West who think more positive back on Russian hardware base on perspective, that Western ones also not doing better attrition then Russian ones.

Please do shown if there are evidence that saying Western hardware doing better then Russian ones in this war. Because again, if they are, then Ukrainian should be in sea of azov by now.

 

[Redshift]

Read again my post. The similar rate is basically perspective that I see from some non Western media and forums. Similar rate because if they are better rate then Russian ones, the Ukrainian already in better position during their offensive.

Is there any evidence that their attrition rate better then Russian hardware ? No there isn't reliable ones that shown that. Thus most perspective really base on the progress in the ground. Again the nature of this war so far shown more or less attrition rate that are similar for all hardwares, whether Russian, Ukrainian or Western ones.

My posts mostly talk on some in non west forums and media that regain their positive perspective of Russian Hardware. That Russian hardware not as crap as Western pundits put it before in this war. Those non collective West who think more positive back on Russian hardware base on perspective, that Western ones also not doing better attrition then Russian ones.

Please do shown if there are evidence that saying Western hardware doing better then Russian ones in this war. Because again, if they are, then Ukrainian should be in sea of azov by now.

I have made no assertion about who is better, you have.

I have nothing to prove , you do.

 

[Redshift]

I have made no assertion about who is better, you have.

I have nothing to prove , you do.

"Because again, if they are, then Ukrainian should be in sea of azov by now."

That is just plain nonsense, numbers will overwhelm technical superiority, the availability of western weapons is limited and so is the number of troops that Ukraine can ever field.

 

[Ananda]

That is just plain nonsense, numbers will overwhelm technical superiority, the availability of western weapons is limited and so is the number of troops that Ukraine can ever field.

No it is not nonsense, cause Russian doesn't have numbers superiority. What nonsense is the implied that Russian have numbers superiority. This is why many in non west see this war is basically attrition war already.

Now can you prove that Russian have numbers superiority on the front where Ukrainian using Western hardware? Clearly you talking of numbers superiority that Russian has on those fronts. If not then your talk of numbers superiority is the one that nonsense.

 

[seaspear]

Russia has already claimed to have shot down 3 f-16 fighters, certainly Patriot missile defence systems according to Russia have taken significant losses as well,I have found Orynx to be a neutral source?

MSN

Russia stated that its Kinzhal destroyed 5 Patriot missile system launchers with one attack

The Russian Defence Ministry claims that five launchers of the American Patriot air defence system were "completely destroyed" by a hypersonic Kinzhal strike on 16 May in Kyiv. Source: Russia's Ministry of Defence on Telegram Quote: "According to reliably confirmed data, on 16 May, as a result...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Ananda]

have made no assertion about who is better, you have.

I have nothing to prove , you do.

Read again, I make assement of what many of non other Western forums and media perspective. Not my believe, so I have nothing to prove. Can you read English?

 

[seaspear]

I believe that most of us can read English and are able to understand the difference between speculation without fact and information based on fact ,
I don't believe you are able to understand English by your on occasion poor grammar and spelling so please don't question others on theirs

 

[KipPotapych]

I think the frustration is coming from being asked the same question over an over after it was already answered. For instance, in this case, in the first reply by Ananda when being asked for the source of his suggestion, I understood it was speculation based on whatever he reads elsewhere (I actually understood (or assumed?) that from his very first post); yet he was asked the same thing a few more times by different (and same) people.

As for the rate of losses, whether western, Russian, or whatever, here it appears that the rate is about the same by looking at those spreadsheets that I cited here a while ago when someone asked about the losses of the vehicles during the UA offensive. In other words, they all seem to burn the same, but the side on the offensive loses more vehicles, naturally. Bradleys definitely appear to save lives better. And so on.

One thing here is pretty clear: when someone rolls in with dozens of armour like it is a parade, they get hit hard regardless of what they are riding, be it Russians or Ukrainians, and they sustain significant losses.

The question was asked here a while back by me and a couple of others if the Leopards had any effect at all in comparison to other MBTs, for example. I do not believe there were any answers and I haven’t seen any since either. Now the logical answer seems to be why would there be? He only real difference was that UA had tanks vs not having those tanks.

On the other hand, some of the equipment showed to be a “dud” for this type of environment and warfare. Like AMX 10, for example. There were other units the Ukrainians (allegedly?) complained about and praised some others. Some of the equipment was described as simply not suitable because it didn’t like dirt and could handle any (which included the electronics and other ish inside).

Also, actual western equipment that was given to Ukraine was likely never intended to operate in such environment and such warfare, no? It’s like mid to late 20th century meet 21st with tactics from the early 20th. I haven’t seen any videos of a Leo doing something on a minefield that a T(insert number) did or didn’t do. The same is true when either was hit by a drone or any other munition. There were Leos that were destroyed from one hit of a “lame” FPV and I saw a T taking 3 hits before being stopped by a fourth. In other words, there is very little comparison here to be made at this time. I am sure Abrams would burn all the same if they were rolled out. I mean it is common sense, isn’t it?

For those wondering, the entire post is speculation on my part. If you have factual info that contradicts these speculations, I am sure many, but definitely I, would love to hear.

 

[Ananda]

I understood it was speculation based on whatever he reads elsewhere (I actually understood (or assumed?) that from his very first post); yet he was asked the same thing a few more times by different (and same) people.

Thank you for understanding what I wrote, clearly you have more understanding in English than those who pretends have better understanding of English then mine.

What I wrote from beginning already clear is perspective of some in non western media and forums, on the attrition rate of all hardware in this war. Not much different (in their perspective) whether they are coming from West or Russian. Thus for some in non west, it regain their positive perspective toward Russian hardware.

This is not because of they don't have enough information. On contrary in this present global information flow, they have enough. Those who continues question my post for prove, clearly just can't accept other perspective especially those for non West.

One thing that I want to add, it is not speculation but more perspective. Perspective is more toward what they 'choose' to believe base on information they gather.

 

[Redshift]

Read again, I make assement of what many of non other Western forums and media perspective. Not my believe, so I have nothing to prove. Can you read English?

I can confirm that my English is excellent.

I am a native English speaker, having been born in England to English parents.

I have multiple degrees from English universities in physics and computer science, as well as qualifications taken in later life from the Open University.

I have worked for the British government and several multi national companies, written and spoken communication has always been a large part of my career.

I will make no comment on your own use of the English language as it is undoubtedly decent for a none native speaker. What I will say however is that, it is clearly ambiguous and often appears to assert opinions as facts, it also appears to assert other people's opinions as facts.

Those things coupled with your (apparent) desire to deride the West, Western institutions, and Western technology are what are generating my comments on your posts, I will stop commenting on anything that you say from now going forward.

 

[Ananda]

Believing that having perspective that not in line with Western believe not the same with deriding and condescending the West. However non western perspective more and more not always in line with the West, and that's not the same with attacking West.

My comments to your English clearly sarcastic as I now you are Native English speakers. However your comments clearly have position of negativity for any Non Western perspective, that not in line with what your believe Western value. All my post only saying that increasing Non Western perspective in media and on-line forums believe Western and Russian hardware face similar attrition rate in this war. As the nature of this war already an attrition war toward all hardware no matter it is originated. If that's in your opinion deriding Western Technology as hurt Western superiority toward anything Russia, then it is seems something already clouding your judgment.

 

[Redshift]

Believing that having perspective that not in line with Western believe not the same with deriding and condescending the West. However non western perspective more and more not always in line with the West, and that's not the same with attacking West.

My comments to your English clearly sarcastic as I now you are Native English speakers. However your comments clearly have position of negativity for any Non Western perspective, that not in line with what your believe Western value. All my post only saying that increasing Non Western perspective in media and on-line forums believe Western and Russian hardware face similar attrition rate in this war. As the nature of this war already an attrition war toward all hardware no matter it is originated. If that's in your opinion deriding Western Technology as hurt Western superiority toward anything Russia, then it is seems something already clouding your judgment.

As I said, I have stopped commenting so you have the last word.