Bullying? Do you mean fighting back? What a strange word to use.
The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread
- Thread starter Feanor
- Start date
Ukraine is free to choose its own fate, it is not up to Russia, the CSTO or NATO. How is that so hard for you to understand? Why should Russia get to dictate who can or can't join a democratic defensive alliance?... NATO will never negotiate on that because its at the core of what all free nations believe in.
If the Baltic states weren't in NATO they would likely be in a similar situation to Georgia and Ukraine today.
You're either conveniently ignorant or trying to undermine and mislead intentionally.
There is plenty that Russia could do, the first thing, and most important ,would be to stop attacking Ukraine.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
This is likely the maximalist position of UKR and a preparation for the likely inevitable negotiations to happen in the future.
I think thats the UKR position - you cant trust RU not to rearm and attack again, unless there are guarantees. Can UKR, even under ideal conditions take Crimea ? I have doubts.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
Given that RU was "given" Crimea, why should anyone give anything else to RU ? Does it concern you that RU engaged in wholesale theft from UKR in 2014, and now wants the whole thing ?
There is a big difference between NATO expanding - a voluntary joining that doesnt change your government; and RU conquering territory.
Neither UKR or Georgia were able to join NATO due to the local fighting they were engaged in. It wasnt going to happen.
Again, the "NATO expansion concern" is just a smokescreen. Putin isnt the slightest bit worried about a NATO attack.
Oh, I didn’t mean it in a bad way, before this war, no one will think that Ukraine can deny mighty Russia access to the Black Sea, what they are doing is impressive
I agree, but tell me, if Mexico decides to join the CSTO and agrees to Russia placing radars and missiles there, would the US agree to that?? I remember once upon a time when Cuba was warned of very drastic consequences if they allowed the Soviets in..
In my opinion NATO should not expand to include Ukraine or Giorgia because this is sensitive to Russia, and as u can see, the Russians are ready to die there. NATO didn’t have to accept them.. this is pure trouble making. I have Nigerian roots, so what, I can talk about slavery, stealing, manipulation and many more but it don’t really matter here. What matters is that Russia attacked Ukraine period but that’s not the whole story. And that’s the main reason why majority of the global south remaining neutral.. they can see
Kruschev was planning to install missiles with nuclear warheads in Cuba, at the height of the Cold War. Rather different. Cuba allowed in a lot of Soviet "advisers", inc;luding crews of surface to air missiles, without a US invasion. The nearest thing to one was the farcical Bay of Pigs invasion by CIA-backed Cuban exiles who thought Castro's government would crumble. The USA didn't reinforce them when that didn't happen.
And that was 60 years ago. Times change.
rsemmes
Member
I read "bullying" as the other word Feanor used: pinpricks. He will prove me wrong.
The Taranto raid was an effective "pinprick", it didn't change the war; nor the raid in Alexandria. No 100 days UKR air campaign is going to happen here, the attrition will continue. Those attacks are no carried out against land targets, could UKR use more of those?
Ukraine can deny mighty Russia access to the Black Sea.
I think "deny" is too big a word.
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Hold on. NATO is not capable of agreeing to any treaty. Demanding that NATO must not expand is simply impossible because as a body NATO is not empowered.to agree to anything.
Russia has been perceiving NATO as a superbody that controls its member states and can thus make decisions on its own when NATO is nothing like that. This is a fundamental mistake on Russia's part.
If Russia doesn't want NATO to expand, the way to do it is to approach a sympathetic NATO member state (say, Hungary or Turkey) and make a (secret) pact wherein they will veto any new addition to NATO. NATO itself doesn't have the power to decide or even the capability to desire to expand.
rsemmes
Member
A total smokescreenPutins demand not to increase NATO was a total smokescreen. If Putin really had concerns about NATO, he wouldnt of worked so hard to get Finland and Sweden to join. He also would not denude his northern border of troops if he was afraid of NATO:
/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/6VZJNXQCSBJ53PJCYMBOBNOYC4.jpg)
Russian forces near Norway at '20% or less' than before Ukraine war, Norway's armed-forces chief says
Russian forces stationed in the Arctic near Norway are "20% or less" of the number they were before the February 2022 invasion of Ukraine, Norway's chief of defence said on Saturday.www.reuters.com
He wouldnt of removed most forces (11th Corps ?) from Kaliningrad:
Russia’s Stripped Its Western Borders to Feed the Fight in Ukraine
But Finland and the Baltic states are still leery of Moscow’s long-term designs.foreignpolicy.com
...and so on...
RU didnt abide by previous treaty terms so there is no reason to think he would abide by a newer one.
Furthermore, what is this "tense" history of NATO vs RU ? Has NATO invaded RU territory ? NATO solely exists due to RU expansionism. If Putin doesnt want further NATO expansion maybe he could stop invading bordering countries. NATO was dying on the vine in 2021. Well, its expanding now, thanks to this new cold war Putin started.
Have you been talking to him about it? Can Putin say or can anyone in RU (or Donbas) firmly state that the Minsk agreement or any other treaty was a total smokescreen?
A total smokescreen is something we use, WMD.
He wouldn't had worked so hard to get Finland and Sweden to join.
Was he talking to those countries, trying to convince them to join NATO? Putin was doing politics and politics by other means. Would be a wild guess to pint out that he expected a certain outcome?, maybe not that one?
UK/US were expecting Reagan to win an election when they organized the coup in Iran to get the Shah in power?
If he was afraid of NATO
Being a nuclear power, I am not quite sure how afraid he is.
Would not denude his northern border of troops
What are the war preparations in that border? How soon is that invasion going to happen?
He wouldn't had removed most forces (11th Corps ?) from Kaliningrad
Nuclear weapons, again. Military bases have been closed down in my country, it never happened in yours?
RU didn't abide by previous treaty terms
Who did?
"Tense" history of NATO vs RU
I think it's called Cold War, unless you mean that every country in this planet forgot about it immediately.
NATO was dying on the vine in 2021
I may agree or not (not), my impression was not taking into consideration for the decisions taken based on whatever expectations.
You can thank the incompetent RU command for that.
Yes, I think that is a simplistic and biased point of view. VC attacks on US bases: the US Army is the summum of incompetence.
As you cannot provide links to his brain, I think this is just one possible interpretation of what and why all this is happening. One too much black and white in my opinion, specially when we know (History) what governments do and how they get there.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
NATO hasnt accepted them. NATO _cant_ accept them due to the by-laws of entry to NATO.
The global south doesnt have hard political ties to either side, so why should they care. Conversely, why should I care about the "global south" not caring ? It is up to UKR to decide its fate, not RU.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
A total smokescreen - a bogus rationale for the invasion of UKR. Putin's own actions show that he is not afraid of NATO attacking RU.
His actions drove F and S into thr arms of NATO. Putin could of made nice with those 2 countries. Play nice, sign an economic deal or two, assure them that he had no ambitions on F or S......but no, he chose to sabre-rattle and fly nuclear armed bombers near those borders. What a colossal screw up on Putins part.
Again, if Putin had actual concerns about NATO invading, he wouldnt remove forces from those borders. QED - Putin does not fear NATO.
Funny, I thought Russia was not the Soviet Union...turning over a new leaf and all that ?
Judging by European military expenditures (or the lack thereof), NATO was fading away.
Simplistic. Possibly. But how dumb do you have to be to park ships under repair in easy distance of ALCM with a known ability to repeatedly penetrate your air defense ? Fish in a barrel. There are floating drydocks that could be towed to other locations, outside of Storm Shadow range.
I think we can all agree that there is nothing altruistic about the RU invasion of UKR. What then we are left with, are the Machiavellian reasons.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
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NATO expansion requires consensus. And while if someone like Hungary tries to veto it they can be put under considerable diplomatic pressure to not be an obstructionist, if the US vetoes it, that's pretty much the end of the conversation. So NATO can't agree to it as a body. But a single very major power part of NATO can do it.
The global south has been put under immense pressure to condemn Russia and join in the sanctions, you saw how India battled with the western countries to make sure the condemnation of Russia wasn’t read in the communique of the G20 summit.
you forget that most of us in the global south have been victims to major western countries, the reason the global south is not jumping in bed with westerners is simple, too much double standards.
The hatred for Russia is getting out of hand, we preach all this humanity and now we want every Russian dead, I watch the news and it’s like they celebrating any Russian person or diplomat that dies somehow, this is very dangerous, the global south is also watching and learning
ImperatorOrbis
New Member
The main reason is obvious. Because they do not care about events on the other side of the planet. The same way we mostly do not care about what is happening in subsaharan Africa etc.
vikingatespam
Well-Known Member
The politics should not be suprising.
If you prefer the double standards of RU, thats up to you.
Who is we or they ? Who is preaching to kill every RU ? Is it anyone in power, or a social media person ? Can you tell me of a single western leader preaching to kill all RU ? On the other hand, we have a RU govt figure (Dmitry Medvedev) who preaches on Twitter things like this:
"Bandera Ukraine is supported by almost all the leaders of Western countries. Therefore, Biden, Trudeau, Sunak, Scholz, Macron and Meloni, as well as the leaders of villainous Poland, the animalesque Scandinavian countries, militaristic Japan, marsupials from Australia and New Zealand and other plague-carrying fleas like the Baltic states are direct and obvious accomplices of the Nazis. And they need to be treated in the same way as the leaders of the countries of the Nazi coalition."
"Don’t get too carried away playing planes in your sandbox, children. One of these next “good days” might well become Europe’s last…"
"I see no point in maintaining diplomatic relations with Poland. This state must not exist for us while there is no one but Russophobes in power and Ukraine is full of Polish mercenaries, who should be ruthlessly exterminated like stinky rats"
"WHY WILL UKRAINE DISAPPEAR? BECAUSE NOBODY NEEDS IT 1. Europe doesn’t need Ukraine. The forced support of the Nazi regime, by the American mentor’s order, has put Europeans into a financial and political inferno. All for the sake of bandera’s unterukraine, that even the snobby, insolent Polacks don’t take for a valid country, and time and again toss in the issue of its western areas anschluss. There’s a nice perspective ahead: to permanently put the nouveau-Ukrainian blood-sucking parasites on the decrepit EU’s arthritis-crippled neck. That’ll be the final fall of Europe, once majestic, but robbed off by degeneration."
Ahh..the joys of the restrained, well-spoken RU government. /s
If you polled people here you would find out that "we" (as much as I can speak for anyone), want RU to go back to the Feb 2022 borders. Put an end to this utter shit-show of an invasion. Nobody here wants RU to cease existing, or break up as a state, or similar.
RU was just fine before invading UKR, and they will be just fine when they go home.
O
You say that the "Global South" takes this position, it is rather odd though that the vast majority of people migrating from these areas are coming to western Europe, to live among their former oppressors rather than to the much admired Russia?
Why is it I wonder that ordinary people in the "global south" aren't flocking to the paradise that they admire so much?
Perhaps it's not quite so black and white?