Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[WaveWalker]

AUKUS submarine deal: what are the American-made Virginia class nuclear submarines?

But Australia’s deal to acquire as many as five Virginia class nuclear-powered submarines will deliver serious logistical and personnel challenges.

www.afr.com

This answers the third production line speculation.

It would be really helpful if people don’t post subscription locked articles. How about copy and pasting them?
I’m wondering if the US, UK and Australia all build the follow on sub to the same basic design.

 

[Anthony_B_78]

It would be really helpful if people don’t post subscription locked articles. How about copy and pasting them?
I’m wondering if the US, UK and Australia all build the follow on sub to the same basic design.

Those posting such links are abiding by the board policy of providing evidence, and they're generally providing a synopsis of what the article says. It's helpful to those of us who do have subscriptions too. Posting a copy and paste, meanwhile, would be a breach of copyright.

What I'm reading and surmising is that the follow on sub would be the British SSN(R) with an American weapons system. I doubt the Americans would adopt a British design for their next sub. Guess it's not impossible.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I thought the Astute was a lock in and now we are talking Virginias. At this stage I am not sure I would discount the possiblity of Albo announcing we are getting Barracuda SSNs.

How would Australia realistically have got Astutes? We're still technically building them, but as no further boats are on order and I believe all long-lead items have been obtained/ordered, for all intense purposes the production line is closing. There was zero chance of us selling any of ours.

Maybe we could have reopened the line, but Australia would have had to pick up the full tab for that, which would have been very expensive.

The idea of selling V-class submarines make sense if, as reported, the US bases some in Australia and supposedly with US personnel. Whether they're technically flagged with the RAN won't matter as it's very likely RAN SSNs would support the USN if requested.

 

[hauritz]

How would Australia realistically have got Astutes? We're still technically building them, but as no further boats are on order and I believe all long-lead items have been obtained/ordered, for all intense purposes the production line is closing. There was zero chance of us selling any of ours.

Maybe we could have reopened the line, but Australia would have had to pick up the full tab for that, which would have been very expensive.

The idea of selling V-class submarines make sense if, as reported, the US bases some in Australia and supposedly with US personnel. Whether they're technically flagged with the RAN won't matter as it's very likely RAN SSNs would support the USN if requested.

I have come to think that just about anything is possible. So far the replacing of the Collins subs has proved to be perhaps the most convoluted process ever conducted by Australia with more plot twists than your average Agatha Christie novel.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I have come to think that just about anything is possible. So far the replacing of the Collins subs has proved to be perhaps the most convoluted process ever conducted by Australia with more plot twists than your average Agatha Christie novel.

Only because of the actions of Australian governments. At no time did the UK suggest we might sell some of our very limited number of submarines and in doing so bait another Australian delay.

The references to selling existing Astutes came from on the one hand wishful thinking by some Auzzies and on the other doomsayers about how the UK can't afford a navy consisting of more than a few tugboats.

 

[SD67]

This is the UK press's take on it

Britain to design Australia’s nuclear-powered submarines under Aukus deal

Rishi Sunak was said to be ‘buzzing’ about the news, hailed a big win for the UK and a huge boost for the defence industry

www.telegraph.co.uk

3-5 second hand Virginia's as an interim measure

Parallel build of SSN(R) in Barrow and Adelaide

Announcement scheduled for monday.

 

[StobieWan]

I thought the Astute was a lock in and now we are talking Virginias. At this stage I am not sure I would discount the possiblity of Albo announcing we are getting Barracuda SSNs.

At this point, if the space battleship yamato was thrown into the ring I'd just nod and wait and see.

Rumor control just flew out the window, across the rooftops, run away.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Redundant post, Mods please delete.

 

[Stampede]

At this point, if the space battleship yamato was thrown into the ring I'd just nod and wait and see.

Rumor control just flew out the window, across the rooftops, run away.

Yep the dark horse is a Collins upgrade with rubber band propulsion!

Lets just wait and see next week what is proposed.

Then give it a decade or so and to see what actually eventuates.

This is a bold enterprise with many, many hurdles.

Need a lot more details before I'm completely sold on this project.

Time will tell.

Cheers S

 

[Bob53]

Connecting dots here …It’s looking like Australia will help pay to expand Sub Yard capacity in the US increasing their drum beat to 3 boats per year and get into their expanded capacity queue. If that’s how things pan out up to 5 Virginias is a pretty powerful interim capability. Even 3 is a game changer …My guess is if this turns to be true then the actual number of Virginias would swing on both the US drumbeat and the delivery time frames of the SSNR once known. The longer the SSNR delivery time frames the more Virginia’s that would be purchased.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Please delete again.

 

[Volkodav]

In military parlance, the above is the equivalent of the officer fresh out of the academy complaining about the 20 year veteran NCO.

There's a good reason most site managers, even non-tertiary qualified ones, are more valued and much better remunerated than engineering grads that decided to join commercial construction companies through the construction/project management stream.

You just can't replicate experience, especially when managing other trades/problems and most of them have the boots on the ground experience over years and years.

I work on the basis that once a competent person has ten years plus experience it should be near impossible to determine whether they came up through trade or did a four year degree.

The whole idea of the master's program where I used to work was to accelerate the growth of junior engineers into senior engineers, while also giving the most talented senior technical people a pathway to becoming a professional engineer.

The problem is EA doesn't like people who don't have four year engineering degrees being recognised as engineers. They don't even like people who did their four year degrees in many other countries being recognised as engineers.

Prior to the existence of EA, many engineers had three year diplomas from the various Institutes of Technology, while others had qualified through pupillage, i.e. a professional apprenticeship. By all means have people sit exams and professional boards to qualify, but making them suck eggs in a classroom for four years full time, or eight to twelve years part time, is nothing more than a deliberate policy to make it too hard for those who didn't go to the right uni and do the right courses in the right classes under the right instructors to gain professional recognition for their demonstrated knowledge, skills and competence.

With the current skills shortages we should be bringing as many people as possible into, or back to engineering, identifying gaps in their knowledge and experience and bridging/filling them, instead of excluding them.

 

[Lolcake]

Second hand, cheaper Virginia subs headed to Australia

Australia will buy used Virginia class submarines, at a yet to be finalised discount, to cover the gap until new AUKUS-built subs go into production.

www.afr.com

- Joe Courtney (US congressman) confirmed we will be contributing to a new Virginia production line with contributions happening as early as this year.
- Joint crewing to begin
- Virginia production line boat construction to be increased per annum
- We will be getting used subs (cheaper). No block was mentioned. Price to be determined by congress
-Australia to obtain a portion of the production work for the Virginia class as new boats are expected to cost over 6.2 bn (I assume this is an error and they mean the SSN(X))
-Joe Courtney thinks we should name a boat after Beazely.

Bit disappointed in us not getting new builds but if we were to get late Block III and IV's this should get about 20-23 years of life left in them which should be enough to complete the production of the SSN(R) or a significant portion of them.

 

[Volkodav]

based on the described scenario in the US obviously.
It would sheer stupidity and wasted resources to build a "Virginia" production line in Australia to start a "new class submarine" production line not ten years later

I imagine it will be more a case of experienced, competent Australian technical people going to the US to learn new skills, while helping to alleviate US production constraints in common skill areas. The US doesn't currently have enough skilled trades to effectively train their new apprentices, reskilling Australian senior trades and technical will help in this area. The Aussies will get up to speed on the US techniques then add to their production and training capability while the apprentices get up to speed.

 

[Wombat000]

Having an eventual SSN construction hub in SA does make sense, even just from a strategic maintenance/repair perspective.

So, if I interpret this correctly, Aust workers start by contributing to US yard expanded capacity (win-win).
They then become the core workforce trainers for a pending Australian construction yard.
-?

Im surprised the US would allocate to us any meaningful boats from their own working fleet.

 

[TScott]

Having an eventual SSN construction hub in SA does make sense, even just from a strategic maintenance/repair perspective.

So, if I interpret this correctly, Aust workers start by contributing to US yard expanded capacity (win-win).
They then become the core workforce trainers for a pending Australian construction yard.
-?

Im surprised the US would allocate to us any meaningful boats from their own working fleet.

If Australian workers contribute to increased production rates and a 3rd sub manufacturing yard, they aren't really any worse off though are they?

I think the key here is that the Virginia procurement has been rumoured to be around 4-5 years away - i.e enough time for the Australian workers contingent to up production rates and cover the boats that might be coming Australia's way.

They swap 5 x Block III or IV's for Block V's in their fleet.

Pretty good deal allround.

 

[hauritz]

When you think about it of course the boats will be secondhand. The unions would freak out if we had new build boats. Also it makes little sense to buy 3 to 5 new build Virginias and then swap over to British SSN(R). Finally there is no way you would get brand new submarines built by the early 30s.

My guess is that we will get a few older block submarines that will have just enough hull life left in them to see us through to new built British boats.

Another question I would have is whether or not we would proceed with the Collins LOTE. Save yourself $6 billion right there.

Really to raise crews for even just three SSNs by the early to mid 30s we would probably have to divest ourselves of the Collins class.

 

[TScott]

This may be a stupid question to some of the pro's on here, but given the current geo-political situation:

Would the RAN keep the Collins class in strategic reserve for an amount of time after receipt of the Virginia's? Obviously their upkeep etc isn't cheap and this would only be viable for an amount of time etc, but as we all know, submarines don't grow on tree's, with the probability of a major conflict in our region at it's highest point in decades, they could be used even for regional security in the event of a major war, if required?

 

[SMC]

Still no word on where on the East coast the subs will be based. I cannot see the NIMBY crowd being pleased with SSN's being docked at Fleet base East.

As to whether we get new or second hand Virginia's, we will just have to wait for the official announcement next week.

 

[John Fedup]

Bang back some of your favourite brews and wait till the official announcement. Hard liquor is an acceptable alternative.