Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Reptilia]

Tried to lay it out…

2024 - 6 Collins, Virginia stopovers
2025 - 6 Collins, Virginia stopovers
2026 - 5 Collins, Virginia + Astute stopovers
2027 - 5 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2028 - 1 upgraded Collins, 4 Collins. SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2029 - 1 upgraded Collins, 4 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2030 - 2 upgraded Collins, 3 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2031 - 2 upgraded Collins, 3 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2032 - 3 upgraded Collins, 2 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2033 - 3 upgraded Collins, 2 Collins, 1 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2034 - 4 upgraded Collins, 1 Collins, 1-2 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2035 - 4 upgraded Collins, 1 Collins, 2-3 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2036 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 2-3 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2037 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-4 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2038 - 4-6 upgraded Collins, 3-4 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2039 - 4-6 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2040 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2041 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2042-44 - 3-4 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 1 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2045-47 - 2-3 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 2 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2048-50 - 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 3 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2051-53 - 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 4 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA, Virginia, Astute
2054-56 - 2-3 Virginia(AUS), 5 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA, Virginia, Astute
2057-59 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 6 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA
2060-62 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 7 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA
2063-65 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 8 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA

Beyond this, possibly a couple more SSNA or next gen submarine(unmanned or highly automated likely)

looking at this, pretty certain we will end up getting 5 virginias.

 

[Meriv90]

Just commenting on the level of youtuber.

I'm sorry but what is the level of knowledge of a commentator that thinks that Sweden or Norway would be candidates for an AUKUS similar deal?

Sweden is only now evaluating the need to go bigger than a Visby class

Political shifts and threat developments drive Sweden to look for larger ships | Shephard

Due to political and technological threat developments, Sweden is seeking larger ships with different capabilities. Saab may build the hulls abroad, but nonetheless, fitting out and integration will still occur in Sweden.

www.shephardmedia.com

A SSN? To fight in the Baltic?

Or the Geopolitcal implication of giving Nuclear subs to Japan and Korea. The objective is "si vis pacem para bellum" not outright start a war with China (IMHO) . Korea more than allowed to start its own nuclear program(as they want/plan) with all the considerations needed but it cannot be a US delivered one.

The only logical one and it would be better they get on the train before loosing it is Canada, and you end up exactly with the 5 Eyes.

Can I ask what was the reaction, if there was any reaction to the price tag of the program in the Australian public? Considering also how touchy is the nuclear topic is for the Australian public?

 

[SD67]

What a brilliant result all round.

Here's a titbit - Ultra Electronics supply much of the electronic smarts in the UK SSNs. They were sold mid last year to US private equity, it was a big story over here, controversial. But it makes sense now - the MOD likely approved as there was a bigger picture involved, ie standardisation across AUKUS.

British government clears sensitive Ultra Electronics sale to US-based Advent

Media reports said U.S. officials had threatened to limit intelligence cooperation if the sale was blocked by London.

www.defensenews.com

Ultra Maritime | Undersea Warfare Solutions

Ultra Maritime delivers maritime defense and anti-submarine warfare capabilities across air, surface, and undersea domains for global naval forces.

www.ultra.group

 

[seaspear]

Tried to lay it out…

2024 - 6 Collins, Virginia stopovers
2025 - 6 Collins, Virginia stopovers
2026 - 5 Collins, Virginia + Astute stopovers
2027 - 5 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2028 - 1 upgraded Collins, 4 Collins. SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2029 - 1 upgraded Collins, 4 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2030 - 2 upgraded Collins, 3 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2031 - 2 upgraded Collins, 3 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2032 - 3 upgraded Collins, 2 Collins, SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2033 - 3 upgraded Collins, 2 Collins, 1 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2034 - 4 upgraded Collins, 1 Collins, 1-2 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2035 - 4 upgraded Collins, 1 Collins, 2-3 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2036 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 2-3 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2037 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-4 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2038 - 4-6 upgraded Collins, 3-4 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2039 - 4-6 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2040 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2041 - 4-5 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2042-44 - 3-4 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 1 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2045-47 - 2-3 upgraded Collins, 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 2 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2048-50 - 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 3 SSNA(AUS), SRF 4 Virginia(US), 1 Astute(UK)
2051-53 - 3-5 Virginia(AUS), 4 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA, Virginia, Astute
2054-56 - 2-3 Virginia(AUS), 5 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA, Virginia, Astute
2057-59 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 6 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA
2060-62 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 7 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA
2063-65 - 0-2 Virginia(AUS), 8 SSNA(AUS), SRF MIX SSNX, SSNA

Beyond this, possibly a couple more SSNA or next gen submarine(unmanned or highly automated likely)

looking at this, pretty certain we will end up getting 5 virginias.

Try laying out the various blocks of the Virginia class that come into the mix

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

This is very good for the UK, not just Australia. We'll be supplying a lot of key systems for the RAN's boats, and the Australian cash will help with the design for the Astute-replacement. All in all it should make it more realistic for us to increase the number of SSNs we have.

 

[Going Boeing]

A combined US AU CMS will be a positive and if it migrates its way into the USN then all three navies will have a significant cross decking ability. Like POTUS said, having everyone singing from the same song sheet is the way forward. Common parts maintenance and weapons. The Navy Lookout article says that "... the RN boats could potentially be armed with a submarine-launched variant of the Future Cruise and Anti-Ship missile (FCASW) currently being jointly developed with the French." IMHO if they do that it will defeat the object of the commonality of the boats. I think that is one of the most important components and advantages of the SSN (AUKUS).

My interpretation of the Combat System discussions is that the current Virginia & Collins system (jointly developed) will be updated for the AUKUS SSN and have increased weapons compatibility, including all the weapons that the RN wish to use. This means that the system will be the same in RN & RAN SSN’s but each navy uses their weapons of choice. There was also an indication that the same system would be used in the USN’s SSNX.

This acquisition has been well thought through and is a massive gain for the ADF.

 

[Morgo]

Can I ask what was the reaction, if there was any reaction to the price tag of the program in the Australian public? Considering also how touchy is the nuclear topic is for the Australian public?

The focus has very much been on the price tag given our budget outlook, and what actions will need to be taken to pay for Defence (and other priorities).

No one except the Greens has really complained about the fact they’re nuclear powered, and surprisingly the media has largely ignored them.

 

[Meriv90]

Thanks. Very interesting how the nuclear went from (my foreigner perceived taboo 8 years ago) to the realization of its "non existence".

How is the political aspect of it? Does the opposition complain about the budget constraints or it also recognizes China as a threat big enough to justify such an investment?

 

[Redlands18]

Thanks. Very interesting how the nuclear went from (my foreigner perceived taboo 8 years ago) to the realization of its "non existence".

How is the political aspect of it? Does the opposition complain about the budget constraints or it also recognizes China as a threat big enough to justify such an investment?

The current Opposition actually started the whole move to SSNs when they were in power, the current Opposition Leader was Defence Minister at the time. There is near total Bi-partisan support and the Opposition Leader has said he will back Government Budget cuts in other areas.
I actually watched the announcement with people who are not generally into Defence and they didn't react badly to the price tag and are generally supportive.
There has been stronger reaction to the proposed new East Coast Sub base, the attitude seems to be, yes get SSNs but don't park them in my Neighbourhood. Bit ridiculous when one of the proposed sites is only 60km from Australia's only Civil Reactor.

 

[aussienscale]

There has been stronger reaction to the proposed new East Coast Sub base, the attitude seems to be, yes get SSNs but don't park them in my Neighbourhood. Bit ridiculous when one of the proposed sites is only 60km from Australia's only Civil Reactor.

And really more of a State political nature those complaints as well.

For Meriv, The NSW State election is not far away, so the usual crossover of State and Federal politics is happening, I think if it was any other time there would barely have been a noise about a new east coast base, it is likely Federal Labor has deliberately left this conversation out for now to not stir the pot and the current state, and federal, LNP parties are using it to stir the pot

I believe nationally the conversation will now turn towards a civil nuclear power industry, it is a conversation the country also needs to have a serious talk about.

With regards to the Sub Brief video, he is an ex USN Submariner, his videos are generally very good and informative, but he does get a little excited sometimes, as we all do, and comes out with a few gems

Cheers

 

[Reptilia]

Try laying out the various blocks of the Virginia class that come into the mix

The first 3 are Block 3 or 4 with 20 years of life left in the reactor. Marles said the possible extra 2 are likely new builds which makes little sense since they are now building block 5 with the vpm, extra 25m length. Not sure how easy it would be to build 2 in the future without the vpm integrated Into block 5, 6 or 7.

 

[Wombat000]

Suggestions that SSN-AUKUS will have a VLS block as well, so perhaps there may be some synergy with any latter Virginia boat design including VPM.
(seriously it’s hard to keep track of differing boat acronyms for basically the same thing. It’d be nice to settle on one terminology).

 

[Going Boeing]

Suggestions that SSN-AUKUS will have a VLS block as well, so perhaps there may be some synergy with any latter Virginia boat design including VPM.
(seriously it’s hard to keep track of differing boat acronyms for basically the same thing. It’d be nice to settle on one terminology).

If the AUKUS SSN is derived from the Dreadnought class, the Vertical Launch Tubes may be a block of four configured as per the Columbia/Dreadnought Common Missile Compartment (CMC). The tubes would hav similar mods as the Ohio SSGN’s to make them capable of launching Tomahawks, UUV’s, Hypersonic missiles, etc. The Virginia Payload Tubes are the same diameter (87”) so there would be commonality with a lot of the fittings/systems.

CMC Program Defining Future SSBN Launchers for UK, USA

 

[seaspear]

There may be some advantage to having both the Virginia class whichever block and the Aukus type if there are different capabilities to be deployed e.g. the Virginia3 class has a diver lockout chamber for divers with their equipment no certainty that will be included on the Aukus type ,time will tell

 

[SD67]

If the AUKUS SSN is derived from the Dreadnought class, the Vertical Launch Tubes may be a block of four configured as per the Columbia/Dreadnought Common Missile Compartment (CMC). The tubes would hav similar mods as the Ohio SSGN’s to make them capable of launching Tomahawks, UUV’s, Hypersonic missiles, etc. The Virginia Payload Tubes are the same diameter (87”) so there would be commonality with a lot of the fittings/systems.

CMC Program Defining Future SSBN Launchers for UK, USA

The CMC is the same for Dreadnought and Colombia, being developed by a BAE subsidiary in the US

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8010/

No idea whether this has anything to do with the VLS. But the UK and US have been converging for a while now, in that sense AUKUS is "pushing against an open door"

 

[Scott Elaurant]

The current Opposition actually started the whole move to SSNs when they were in power, the current Opposition Leader was Defence Minister at the time. There is near total Bi-partisan support and the Opposition Leader has said he will back Government Budget cuts in other areas.
I actually watched the announcement with people who are not generally into Defence and they didn't react badly to the price tag and are generally supportive.
There has been stronger reaction to the proposed new East Coast Sub base, the attitude seems to be, yes get SSNs but don't park them in my Neighbourhood. Bit ridiculous when one of the proposed sites is only 60km from Australia's only Civil Reactor.

Like others I am delighted that a decision has been made, that it includes a long term plan, and that the capability gap has been addressed. 3 Virginias starting from 2033 eliminates the risk of a gap, and the option for 5 covers any risk of delay on SSNR (SSN AUKUS = SSNAUKUS class ).

Partnering with UK for SSNR is the right call for Adelaide construction. A lot of the firms are already here. In fact with the combined cash of RN plus RAN the SSNAUKUS design can be developed properly and this should reduce risk. I might have wished for a sooner start, but four years to upgrade ASC is probably realistic, as it should be brought up to a nuclear engineering standard including containment systems.

At first I was shocked by the cost but thinking further announcing the full cost of infrastructure, training and cost over 30 years is smart politically. Both major parties have now formally confirmed support which gives it political certainty. There may be debate over who pays for it but there is not debate that it is going ahead. Committing to a 30 year program with funding allows firms to invest with confidence in bringing resources to Adelaide and individuals to make career decisions with confidence.

I note the SA premier was already on the ABC this morning confirming he is going to Barrow to look at their training academy, with the intention to build a similar one here. Great. Prompt implementation on the human side is essential to delivery.

 

[Going Boeing]

The CMC is the same for Dreadnought and Colombia, being developed by a BAE subsidiary in the US

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8010/

No idea whether this has anything to do with the VLS. But the UK and US have been converging for a while now, in that sense AUKUS is "pushing against an open door"

The Virginia Payload Tube design is based on knowledge gained when the 4 excess Ohio class were converted to SSGN status. This is why they used the same diameter as the ballistic missile tubes. It allows for 6 Tomahawks around the circumference with the 7th one in the centre (except for the 2 VPT’s that are bow mounted in Virginia Block 3 and on, which only have the 6 missiles around the circumference). They also developed Special Forces equipment to go into the two forward tubes of the Ohio SSGN’s so there’s capability that we are not privy to.

I have previously read that the SSNR project was planned to be effectively a shortened Dreadnought (ie the 12 launch tubes (3 CMC’s) would be deleted, or reduced to 4). Recently, the UK Government stated that the SSNR would have Vertical Launch tubes similar to the VPT’s, so it’s logical to surmise that they could utilise a CMC of 4 tubes and thus minimise the amount of design work. Vice Admiral Mead indicated that the AUKUS SSN design is about 70% complete so that supports the theory that it’s design is a shortened Dreadnought.

The evolution of the UK’s SSNR into the SSN-AUKUS

Yesterday’s announcement was really good news but we’ll have to wait for more information to be released to confirm our analysis.

 

[hauritz]

Quite a good write up, but naming the class after Kylie Minogue Maybe the Dame Edna Everidge Class

So long as it doesn't end up the Barry Crocker class.

In the more information section, under nuclear stewardship and waste, not a lot of detail as yet.

A lot of chatter already about expanding AUKUS, could evolve to include other key countries, Canada included, Japan has been mentioned a lot as well, time will tell how this develops, could end up being AUKUSCANJAP

But certainly a lot could further develop out of this over the coming years.

I think there is almost an inevitability that this organisation will grow.

Even suggestions that France might want to join. After all they also have interests in this part of the world.

Is Macron dreaming of Aukus becoming Fraukus?

When silhouetted against the symbolism – as French media proudly insist – of King Charles choosing France for his first state visit at month’s end, this weekend is very much an Anglo-French affair. On Friday, Rishi Sunak and seven ministers visited Paris – a first for five frosty years – for a...

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[aussienscale]

I think there is almost an inevitability that this organisation will grow.

Even suggestions that France might want to join. After all they also have interests in this part of the world.

Is Macron dreaming of Aukus becoming Fraukus?

When silhouetted against the symbolism – as French media proudly insist – of King Charles choosing France for his first state visit at month’s end, this weekend is very much an Anglo-French affair. On Friday, Rishi Sunak and seven ministers visited Paris – a first for five frosty years – for a...

www.spectator.co.uk

Sweet, they can reinvest the half billion dollar payout we gave them for cancelling the Attacks

I liked that class name, god knows what Albo will come up with though

 

[alexsa]

Sweet, they can reinvest the half billion dollar payout we gave them for cancelling the Attacks

I liked that class name, god knows what Albo will come up with though

For the Virginias they could stick with Attack Class (I dread to think of the other options). For SSNR reusing the O boat names would provide a lot of synergy given our history with UK submarines. The RAN had Oxley and Otway in the 20's (Odin class and only owned for a short time) and then the six Oberon's (again a UK submarine design). The Oberons did stirling service including intelligence gathering operations in support of allies (US included) during the cold war.

The link below alludes to this activity.

The O-Boat Mystery Boats – The Naval Officers Club of Australia

As an asside the officers and crew that participated in this work were awarded Australian Service Medals (special Ops clasps) long after the operations ceased.